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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: krypto2000]
    #25648553 -

krypto2000 said:
It doesn't matter if they are or are not spending enough of their profits though does it? The problem is that we need to ponder this question at all. The fact that we need them to spend their profits at an equal to or greater rate than the general publics illustrates an unequal relstionship and a concentration of power.


They don't though, because the Fed also injects money into the economy.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: qman] * 1
    #25648558 -

qman said:
Nothing is too big to fail, insolvency, bond defaults, bankruptcy and buying distressed assets for pennies on the dollar are all healthy parts of free market capitalism.

It works itself out in the end as it punishes the bad behavior and rewards the responsible people.

If they were allowed to fail we wouldn't have to split them up, nature would have done it.


Sure, another Great Depression would have been just fiiine.

I mean, the first Great Depression only lasted over a decade until (wait for it)...









...until the Government finally ended it with a MASSIVE WWII spending bailout.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25648626 -

I'm on manual ignore in 3 threads
:feelsbatman:

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25648696 -

Wow, that's surprising.  But what's "manual ignore" exactly?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25649142 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
qman said:
Nothing is too big to fail, insolvency, bond defaults, bankruptcy and buying distressed assets for pennies on the dollar are all healthy parts of free market capitalism.

It works itself out in the end as it punishes the bad behavior and rewards the responsible people.

If they were allowed to fail we wouldn't have to split them up, nature would have done it.


Sure, another Great Depression would have been just fiiine.



So why not enjoy an economic free lunch, right?  The point is, the bailout has created plenty of even bigger problems.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: qman] * 1
    #25649385 -

Problems, obviously, but not bigger than a Great Depression.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25649642 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
krypto2000 said:
It doesn't matter if they are or are not spending enough of their profits though does it? The problem is that we need to ponder this question at all. The fact that we need them to spend their profits at an equal to or greater rate than the general publics illustrates an unequal relstionship and a concentration of power.


They don't though, because the Fed also injects money into the economy.


They inject it by lending it to the banks though, no? Am I missing something?

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: krypto2000]
    #25649703 -

The government sells treasury bonds to itself to issue new currency.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: koods]
    #25649719 -

Exactly.  :whathesaid:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25649733 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Wow, that's surprising.  But what's "manual ignore" exactly?


manual ignore is when you try to inject a post or 2 into the conversation but it rolls on without anyone addressing or acknowledging that you said anything at all.  Its very upsetting for someone as ego driven as I am. :wink:

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25649741 -

ballsalsa said:
manual ignore is when you try to inject a post or 2 into the conversation but it rolls on without anyone addressing or acknowledging that you said anything at all.  Its very upsetting for someone as ego driven as I am. :wink:


I read your post and thought to myself "got it".  Then I realized I'd better reply and let you know I got it.  :wink:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: krypto2000] * 2
    #25649746 -

krypto2000 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
krypto2000 said:

It doesn't matter if they are or are not spending enough of their profits though does it? The problem is that we need to ponder this question at all. The fact that we need them to spend their profits at an equal to or greater rate than the general publics illustrates an unequal relstionship and a concentration of power.


They don't though, because the Fed also injects money into the economy.


They inject it by lending it to the banks though, no? Am I missing something?


First they buy debt from the Gov't.  Then the Gov't gets the cash, and the bonds count as an asset with which to lend against.  The loans go out to commercial banks who then write more loans to consumers etc.  those loan contracts count as assets against which to make further loans, minus the reserve requirement.

As koods mentioned, since congress ultimately makes the rules, one could say that the Gov't is buying bonds from itself in order to create more cash. A lot of the profits get transfered to the treasury.

Quote:
The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone. Although parts of the Federal Reserve System share some characteristics with private-sector entities, the Federal Reserve was established to serve the public interest.

The Federal Reserve derives its authority from the Congress, which created the System in 1913 with the enactment of the Federal Reserve Act. This central banking "system" has three important features: (1) a central governing board--the Federal Reserve Board of Governors; (2) a decentralized operating structure of 12 Federal Reserve Banks; and (3) a blend of public and private characteristics.

The Board of Governors in Washington, D.C., is an agency of the federal government. The Board--appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate--provides general guidance for the Federal Reserve System and oversees the 12 Reserve Banks. The Board reports to and is directly accountable to the Congress but, unlike many other public agencies, it is not funded by congressional appropriations. In addition, though the Congress sets the goals for monetary policy, decisions of the Board--and the Fed's monetary policy-setting body, the Federal Open Market Committee--about how to reach those goals do not require approval by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government.

Some observers mistakenly consider the Federal Reserve to be a private entity because the Reserve Banks are organized similarly to private corporations. For instance, each of the 12 Reserve Banks operates within its own particular geographic area, or District, of the United States, and each is separately incorporated and has its own board of directors. Commercial banks that are members of the Federal Reserve System hold stock in their District's Reserve Bank. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. In fact, the Reserve Banks are required by law to transfer net earnings to the U.S. Treasury, after providing for all necessary expenses of the Reserve Banks, legally required dividend payments, and maintaining a limited balance in a surplus fund.


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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25649765 -

Good post.  This part is key:

"As koods mentioned, one could say that the Gov't is buying bonds from itself in order to create more cash. A lot of the profits get transfered to the treasury."

And also that Fed profits go back to the taxpayer.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25649990 -

Quote:
And also that Fed profits go back to the taxpayer.


The Fed Delivered $80.2 Billion in Profits to the Treasury in 2017

Net interest payments on the debt are estimated to total $276.2 billion this fiscal year

That's just federal interest payments on the US national debt, and already the public is in the red because of this funny money system.  Add on to that state government debt servicing and all the interest payments  everyone makes on their mortgages, lines of credit, etc...

The aristocracy costs an awful lot to maintain.


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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25650020 -

Aristocracy-

But you cannot have privilege without removing dignity from somewhere else.



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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25650143 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
And also that Fed profits go back to the taxpayer.


The Fed Delivered $80.2 Billion in Profits to the Treasury in 2017

Net interest payments on the debt are estimated to total $276.2 billion this fiscal year

That's just federal interest payments on the US national debt, and already the public is in the red because of this funny money system.  Add on to that state government debt servicing and all the interest payments  everyone makes on their mortgages, lines of credit, etc...

The aristocracy costs an awful lot to maintain.


What about it is funny money? Our monetary system has very little to do with our debt. Our debt arises from the fact that revenues are lower than spending. It’s very simple.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: koods]
    #25650432 -

What about it is funny money?  That a private, undemocratically accountable corporation can create money for profit.  If you or I do that its called counterfeiting.

The government debt arises from a spending/revenue imbalance, but debt itself arises from the way the monetary system functions.  If the government budgets were balanced, the public would still have to endure their private debts.

As it is now, there is more private debt than public  anyways.


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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

Edited by VroomerMcZoomers (12/01/18 11:12 AM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: VroomerMcZoomers] * 1
    #25650477 -

It’s not creating money for profit. It earns interest (pretty much the lowest rate possible) on the currency it loans to banks. The banks pay that interest.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: koods]
    #25650484 -

they pay the interest the same way your landlord pays his property taxes or your employers pay their end of your payroll taxes.

Edited by ballsalsa (12/01/18 01:38 PM)

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Re: Neither debt nor the money supply need to grow under fractional reserve banking [Re: koods]
    #25650525 -

Quote:
It’s not creating money for profit.


Excuse me?  What?

When you go to get a mortgage at a bank, that is new money the bank created, which it collects interest on.


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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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