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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25638974 -

krypto2000 said:
You're not wrong, but I don't get your point. By that same line of reasoning we should shrug off mass murder as natural and just let it happen.


What's the proposal for stopping climate change?  We already have mechanisms in place for "mass murder".

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: qman]
    #25638976 -

:standingby:

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: qman]
    #25638981 -

I'm still not getting your point though, are you saying that if we did not have proposals for dealing with mass murder that we should do nothing and just accept that some people will die?

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000] * 1
    #25639042 -

Quote:
"consciousness is not physical"

Yes it is. :lol:


Oh really.  Can you detect it with a meter?  How does gravity affect it?  What are it's quantum constituents? 

If those questions are naive, then please, point me to a scientific description of consciousness.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25639057 -

It is not know what consciousness is so if you take either position to be absolute you are likely wrong so far as it's not provable to another.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25639067 -

Quote:
Who's blaming people who suffer from natural disasters?


You are.  By saying
Quote:
If a species can't adapt properly, nature takes care of the rest.




--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25639082 -

I think his position is that life isn't fair so whatever. It's a lack of empathy. I'm sure if he were affected he would feel very differently, what else would you do, give up and die?

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25639136 -

I think some people would fire up their supercharged 1978 Trans AM that gets 3 miles per gallon for one last rumbling, triumphant, tire squealing moment and drive off into the hurricane or wildfire to go out in a blaze of glory.



--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25639317 -

krypto2000 said:
The Ecstatic said:
Capitalism requires infinite growth to function. Infinite growth is not a sustainable model with climate change looming.


Can you prove this? I'm not sure that is true, it may be, but it doesn't ring as inherently true to me.


Ya, I was thinking the same.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25639645 -

Maybe it has to do with the idea that homeostasis is a difficult thing to maintain. A company is either growing or shrinking. Even if an economy is experiencing homeostasis the individual business will either be growing or shrinking.

Bringing in more means they have received more energy than they have expended. This could be taken to mean the consumer is being cheated, if there's not a 1:1 exchange ratio but a business will ideally take in more than they expend, profit.

One drawback in humans systems could be that when homeostasis is the goal shrinkage is inevitable due to human effect, corruption, greed, theft, laziness, etc. I don't think there is a socialist system where everyone enjoys the same advantages. Inevitably some people are seen to deserve or need more than others. Rich people often express a desire for living in a socialist system, but would they live in one where they were no longer rich?

What if everyone was rich? Richness is currently both a comparative relationship between humans and a measure of access to resources. While not everyone can have more than everyone else, in theory everyone can have more than enough. This would require a cheap (basically free) source of energy (fusion) and access to a virtually unlimited resource supply (the asteroid belt). It would end exhaust pollution. Along with AI enough robots could be created to clean the earth of human debris. Robots could also end the use of pesticides and herbicides. Unlimited energy would reduce the price of artificial light allowing farming operations to move underground or into sky scrapers. Unlimited energy would improve the experience of living in a city. There would be no homeless. There are other benefits but I digress.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25639727 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
Who's blaming people who suffer from natural disasters?


You are.  By saying
Quote:
If a species can't adapt properly, nature takes care of the rest.




I'm not specifically blaming the people who suffer from natural disasters, I was speaking in generalities. 

Humans must learn to adapt to their environment, attempting to control the climate is most likely impossible.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: qman]
    #25639739 -

qman said:
attempting to control the climate is most likely impossible.


CO2 scrubbers can be scaled up with fusion and adequate resources, yet not necessary if fusion becomes a reality. CO2 will naturally decrease over time. We could also permanently avoid glacial periods and the absence of ice ages using space based reflectors to control the incoming radiation to a fine degree. Without fusion I think climate control is impossible, unless some other viable energy source comes along.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Rahz]
    #25639787 -

Rahz said:
qman said:
attempting to control the climate is most likely impossible.


CO2 scrubbers can be scaled up with fusion and adequate resources, yet not necessary if fusion becomes a reality. CO2 will naturally decrease over time. We could also permanently avoid glacial periods and the absence of ice ages using space based reflectors to control the incoming radiation to a fine degree. Without fusion I think climate control is impossible, unless some other viable energy source comes along.


Finally a decent response to the issue here, thank you!!  :thumbup:

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: qman]
    #25639842 -

Fusion and "clean" sources of energy do not create carbon emissions, but they generate a lot of heat still and release the biggest greenhouse gas of all, water. I'm not saying they're not sustainable, but I also think it's a baseless assumption that they are, at best we can only say that they are more sustainable.

If we had a theoretical infinite amount of energy then we too would have an infinite amount of heat to contend with, unless you're proposing we develope a 100% efficient source of energy which is well beyond the bounds of theoretical technology currently. Even fission still works by generating heat that ultimately turns a turbine.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: qman]
    #25639863 -

Quote:
Finally a decent response to the issue here, thank you!!  :thumbup:


Fantasizing about a technological saviour that doesn't exist

Not too solid


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25639930 -

Research and funding for fusion is at an all time high. Large and small reactors, laser based, and cold fusion are all on the table. Fusion as a commercial reality doesn't exist yet, but it's not a physics problem just an engineering problem. I suspect it's only a matter of time before those issues are solved.

Whether it's a boondoggle or not, it's the only thing on the horizon that might actually be able to reverse CO2 levels without curtailing energy use.

Whether waste heat from energy production is an issue I'm not sure, but it seems like the issue warmers are worried about is CO2 concentration trapping additional solar radiation. This being the case fusion does address the issue. There will be some waste heat but the coolant can operate in a closed loop.

Being that fusion can change the game without asking humans to change behavior (our only real hope) I would expect more people to be enthusiastic about it. There's an old joke about fusion always being 25 years away, but when it comes to technology one should not look to the past to inform the future. If you haven't looked into fusion recently consider doing a bit of research. MIT and various other universities are working on it. Lockheed Martin has a serious program. ITER is under construction and tentative power up date is around 2027. Various other privately funded companies are working with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Rahz]
    #25639984 -

You're right that it is viable to maintain current energy levels, but when you start talking about bots roaming the planet and growing food in sky scrapers with artificial lighting you're talking about a massive increase in energy production.

This trend also follows human nature. If energy become essentially free we're going to naturally utilize a lot more of it which none of these models take into effect when factoring in the effects on the climate.

This is speculation, but I feel it's worth considering that we track CO2 and its correlation to global temperatures simply because it is a metric in which we can. While water vapor is in practice a much bigger driver of climate change we have no way to measure it throughout history, so as it stands we do not know to what degree correlation is distinct from causation here.

In other words there is a direct correlation with CO2 release and water vapor/total green house gasses, but it would be a fallacy to believe that simply because we then stop CO2 emissions that in turn means we stop the production of green house gasses in the same way that it would be a fallacy to believe that removing alcohol removes a persons desire to drink. To reiterate this is purely speculation on my part based on my own understanding, but I challenge someone to prove me wrong.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25640091 -

It would be difficult to try and predict how much more energy would be used, but I'll agree that it would take more. Do you have evidence that energy generation minus CO2 and other pollutants has or will have any notable effect on climate? Maybe check my math but it seems 127 quadrillion joules of solar radiation interact with the Earth, compared to our current production of around 20 trillion joules including renewable. That's about one hundredth of a percent of the incoming radiation.

But let's say it is a potential problem. There are other technological initiatives that could help. Advances in solar technology could change the way we harvest solar radiation. Instead of solar farms, the paint and glass we use to cover our vehicles and buildings might harvest energy. Imagine an entire city basically being a solar farm. This might seem to get away from fusion but it could be an integral part of the issue you bring up, if it is an issue. Fusion would help facilitate such plans.

Another point to address your concerns: One of the largest sources of water vapor is farming. In fact, farming evaporates more water than all other human activities combined. If we do this inside, we can reclaim the water.

I don't have all the answers of course, but it's something I expect will be examined if/when these technologies become available. Maybe it's a pipe dream but it seems more reasonable than expecting humanity to dial it down. The funny thing is that there's a fairly direct correlation between energy use and birth rates. If we can pull off the idea I'm suggesting then human population declines voluntarily rather than continuing to go up or crashing due to disaster.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Rahz]
    #25640265 -

Rahz said:
It would be difficult to try and predict how much more energy would be used, but I'll agree that it would take more. Do you have evidence that energy generation minus CO2 and other pollutants has or will have any notable effect on climate? Maybe check my math but it seems 127 quadrillion joules of solar radiation interact with the Earth, compared to our current production of around 20 trillion joules including renewable. That's about one hundredth of a percent of the incoming radiation.




I have no studies, no, I doubt it's a topic that has received much interest. As you say at our current amount of energy generation it's largely irrelevant, but it's a given that it can contribute, it's just a question of at what point does it become significant.

Quote:
Another point to address your concerns: One of the largest sources of water vapor is farming. In fact, farming evaporates more water than all other human activities combined. If we do this inside, we can reclaim the water.



Is that really a problem with global warming though? I think the problem is more so one of atmospheric and surface energy rather than the amount of gasses themselves, the gasses are largely just a metric by which we can measure it. There's a direct correlation between temp/energy and atmospheric gasses so for instance fussing matter generates heat which causes water to evaporate and more energy to be dissipated into the atmosphere in the form of heat; in this way the amount of atmospheric moisture can be correlated with atmospheric warming.

However simply evaporating water itself without an additional input of energy (eg not the sun) should be perfectly neutral as far as climate change is concerned. As the water evaporates it takes energy out of the atmosphere cooling the surrounding area and eventually falling back down elsewhere. You could have problems of water distribution, especially fresh ground water, and it may have indirect affects with respect to local ecology interactions (that's too complex for me to imagine), but theoretically you should come out energetically neutral on a global scale.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25640560 -

Greenhouse gases absorb outgoing long wave radiation, slowing the transport of heat (primarily from solar activity) back to space. There has been some discussion about the net effect but if greenhouse gas didn't serve to trap heat in some way it wouldn't be a greenhouse gas. If you can find a source that suggests AGW is a direct result of energy production rather than solar buildup I would be curious to read it.

At any rate, if we could achieve modern living conditions for everyone the human population would eventually be reduced voluntarily. Ultimately there would be fewer and fewer humans to use energy.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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