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Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock??
    #24757417 -

.

Edited by thetechnician (07/13/20 11:46 AM)

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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: thetechnician] * 1
    #24757440 -

that would infect the peyote too and will give you monstrose trips :eek::rolleyes::syringe:


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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: Feroxx]
    #24757456 -

I wish! :tongue2:

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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: thetechnician]
    #24759073 -

They'll survive sure but would probably grow faster if you left them on pereskiopsis.


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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: saythatagain]
    #24759520 -

Feroxx said:
Monstrosity is caused by a bacteria, and it is propagated by grafting non-contaminated stuff onto monstrose stocks, as far i know


OP I read this and now I’m wondering the same question :lol:
I just picked up a Cereus peruvianus monstose and have many many other cacti I could try grafting


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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: Zombi3] * 1
    #24761577 -

I'm not sure I understand this post right, but grafting a regular plant onto a monstrose plant will not cause monstrose growth, if that's what you're getting at.


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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: saythatagain] * 2
    #24762956 -

IMHO, any monstrose plant will likely make for a very poor grafting stock. Grafting works because all the "strength" of the stock is transfered to the scion by fooling the stock into "thinking" the scion is its actual growing tip/point. A monstrose plant has multiple (endless?) growing points and will simply favour one of them instead of the scion, much in the same way a Peres or a Trich will throw pups on the early stages of a graft - bun in this case, you can simply cut the pups off until the scion is big enough to cope with all the good stuff the stock is sending up.

Of course, I may be way off. Try it out and report back to us. :wink:


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Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: LSoares]
    #24763111 -

.

Edited by thetechnician (07/13/20 06:56 PM)

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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: LSoares] * 2
    #24763122 -

LSoares said:
IMHO, any monstrose plant will likely make for a very poor grafting stock. Grafting works because all the "strength" of the stock is transfered to the scion by fooling the stock into "thinking" the scion is its actual growing tip/point. A monstrose plant has multiple (endless?) growing points and will simply favour one of them instead of the scion, much in the same way a Peres or a Trich will throw pups on the early stages of a graft - bun in this case, you can simply cut the pups off until the scion is big enough to cope with all the good stuff the stock is sending up.

Of course, I may be way off. Try it out and report back to us. :wink:


Does this guy know his stufd or what?:grampofapproval:

I totally agree as the main,point of a column is at the tip so when replaced with a scion it will only,skip a few beats til all the power is back at that tip.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode

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Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: ferrel_human] * 2
    #24765449 -

I agree that's a clever insight... :smile:

In that same 'vein' I would think that it's not about vasculature or areoles but whether those meristem cells (creating new growth basically) are present in a tip like normally, a whole ridge or other very broad patterns, right? AFAIK normally those meristem cells aren't even connected to vasculature.
But I get if you just asked because you need to find one to even be able to graft.

Is the chance of success relatively low if the rootstock is not encouraged to put energy into fusing and healing, lacking an apex, or does that have nothing to do with it?

What I will say is that I love an experiment and would try certain things that are bound to be inefficient (like multiple grafts on a rootstock) for different kicks.

OTOH that is a beautiful specimen and I doubt you'll be doing it favors this way. (imho)

Good luck!


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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: Solipsis] * 1
        #24765482 -

    Solipsis said:
    In that same 'vein' I would think that it's not about vasculature or areoles but whether those meristem cells (creating new growth basically) are present in a tip like normally, a whole ridge or other very broad patterns, right? AFAIK normally those meristem cells aren't even connected to vasculature.


    That's an interesting point. What exactly is a monstrose plant? This type certainly seems to have either meristematic tissue everywhere (either differentiation did not occur or de-differentiation occurs too easily), whereas other forms, like Cereus 'Fairy Castle' seem to suffer from lack of apical dominance (the mechanism that keeps a plant from throwing branches like crazy).
    As for grafts, it does not involve the apical meristem but rather the vascular cambiums (is that the plural for "cambium"? Cambii? Whatever...) of both scion and stock (that's why the vascular rings need to overlap).

    Quote:
    Solipsis said:Is the chance of success relatively low if the rootstock is not encouraged to put energy into fusing and healing, lacking an apex, or does that have nothing to do with it?


    IMHO (although this warrants experimenting or perhaps reading if it was already studied), after fusion has occured the scion needs to start producing auxins to inhibit lateral shoot development. This rarely occurs immediately and a pup or two are produced. If not removed quickly, the stock may concentrate its vascular production towards the pup(s), leaving the scion to starve and possibly even die (if the vascular continuity to the scion is lost because of the lateral shoot development).


    --------------------
    Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
    Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
    http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

    Sowing cacti - my way!
    Random pictures of my collection.
    Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: LSoares] * 2
        #24766184 -

    According to that logic and experience you could similarly expect that grafting onto monstrose may not just be counterproductive but the scion can starve and die, right? Since you cannot focus growth by removing pups and letting the scion be the main auxin producer.
    I guess what will determine whether such a graft works is whether the auxins produced by the scion have any significant bearing on the lack of apical dominance which I guess is accompanied or manifested by high cytokinin over auxin levels. If those cytokinins eclipse the auxin production of the scion, it's probably no use... on the other hand if the effect is very significant it could impose apical dominance all on its own, unfortunately it is likely to be local?

    No idea if you could perhaps dope the scion with a synthetic auxin like IBA until it can grow on its own?

    @meristem and monstrose: I tried to look it up, it seems like monstrose growth is not from disruption of the meristematic tissue directly but loss of apical dominance so there is no suppression / focused growth. Not sure though what it means indirectly for the histology but it doesn't seem like there is meristem in places or shapes you really wouldn't expect, just deformed along with the shape of the plant.?

    My earlier question by the way was whether a scion can starve so much from the moment of grafting that it doesn't even fuse and heal, basically whether the healing qualifies as regular growth in terms of energy consumption or if repair mechanisms kick in that will at least fuse the plants as a way of healing (even if only to let it starve right after) :P

    And finally @ the scion 'infecting' the rootstock joke: there is an off chance there might actually be some truth to that if the monstrose growth is virally produced and if the virus is also able to infect / affect the scion.
    It seems like this kind of stuff hasn't really been proven, if it were so easy wouldn't you expect that someone would have demonstrated this contagiousness by now imo? I guess not if a virus is just one of multiple possible mutagenic causes and you don't know which one caused your monstrosity :laugh:

    (edit: relevant post here https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17014944#17014944 )

    TL;DR: a lot of conjecture, nothing as conclusive as just some first hand experience



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    • Edited by Solipsis (11/07/17 12:09 PM)

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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: Solipsis]
        #24766295 -

    I'll try it in the spring and report back.  I have plenty of it for rootstock and lots of choices for scions.


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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: pinedownpioneer]
        #24766994 -

    .

    Edited by thetechnician (07/13/20 11:45 AM)

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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: thetechnician]
        #24767232 -

    That's going to look really neat! You've inspired me to do the same! Since we are coming up on winter and mine are outdoors I'm going to wait until spring.


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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: pinedownpioneer]
        #24767237 -

    Thanks man! Well, stay tuned to see how it turns out. It might be a flop, or it might work out just fine.

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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: thetechnician]
        #24767344 -

    :popcorn:

    :thumbup::thumbup:


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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: Solipsis]
        #24768092 -

    Solipsis said:
    My earlier question by the way was whether a scion can starve so much from the moment of grafting that it doesn't even fuse and heal, basically whether the healing qualifies as regular growth in terms of energy consumption or if repair mechanisms kick in that will at least fuse the plants as a way of healing (even if only to let it starve right after) :P



    I can add something to this: the most important requirement for a graft to "take" is that the stock is actively growing. This has been reported by far too many serious people to be just an anecdote. What it means is that the "fusing" is probably accomplished at the expense of the stock, rather than the scion, and so it is probably safe to assume that grafting won't take too much of a toll on the scion's reserves - a good thing, for I have managed to graft Aztekium ritteri seedlings and they have probably no reserves at all!


    --------------------
    Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
    Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
    http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

    Sowing cacti - my way!
    Random pictures of my collection.
    Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: Solipsis]
        #24768121 -

    Solipsis said:
    According to that logic and experience you could similarly expect that grafting onto monstrose may not just be counterproductive but the scion can starve and die, right? Since you cannot focus growth by removing pups and letting the scion be the main auxin producer.


    That is my thesis. Just some educated guessing.

    Quote:
    Solipsis said:I guess what will determine whether such a graft works is whether the auxins produced by the scion have any significant bearing on the lack of apical dominance which I guess is accompanied or manifested by high cytokinin over auxin levels. If those cytokinins eclipse the auxin production of the scion, it's probably no use... on the other hand if the effect is very significant it could impose apical dominance all on its own, unfortunately it is likely to be local?


    IF the monstrosity is due to lack of apical dominance. I'm not convinced it isn't (in some cases) just an abnormality in meristem development, causing some tissue to skip the differentiation phase and remain in meristem-mode.

    Quote:
    Solipsis said:No idea if you could perhaps dope the scion with a synthetic auxin like IBA until it can grow on its own?


    Not the scion, as it would inhibit its growth, but the rest of the stock, although I doubt it: it would have to get deep inside the tissue to affect the meristem.

    Quote:
    Solipsis said:@meristem and monstrose: I tried to look it up, it seems like monstrose growth is not from disruption of the meristematic tissue directly but loss of apical dominance so there is no suppression / focused growth. Not sure though what it means indirectly for the histology but it doesn't seem like there is meristem in places or shapes you really wouldn't expect, just deformed along with the shape of the plant.?



    As the virus/bacteria/phytoplasma shows, I'm not sure there is a single factor accounting for all types of monstrosities. There must be multiple processes at work, depending on the plant.
    In every areole of a cactus is a dormant axillary "bud" (sometimes this "bud" is detached from the areole, as in Mammillaria), ready to kick in and produce either new stem tissue, floral tissue, etc., when properly stimulated. Sometimes the vascular cambium can reverse to meristematic state and do it as well (cf. production of pups from nowhere in TBM). But generally, any living plant cell can reverse to meristematic state if the conditions are right (the "totipotence" principle), there are too many possibilities to rule any one out in favour of other.


    --------------------
    Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
    Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
    http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

    Sowing cacti - my way!
    Random pictures of my collection.
    Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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    Re: Using cereus monstrose as a rootstock?? [Re: LSoares]
        #24768291 -

    Thanks for clearing that up :smile:

    Thetechnician: that's great, looks fine! good luck buddy :laugh:

    LSoares said:
    Quote:
    Solipsis said:I guess what will determine whether such a graft works is whether the auxins produced by the scion have any significant bearing on the lack of apical dominance which I guess is accompanied or manifested by high cytokinin over auxin levels. If those cytokinins eclipse the auxin production of the scion, it's probably no use... on the other hand if the effect is very significant it could impose apical dominance all on its own, unfortunately it is likely to be local?


    IF the monstrosity is due to lack of apical dominance. I'm not convinced it isn't (in some cases) just an abnormality in meristem development, causing some tissue to skip the differentiation phase and remain in meristem-mode.



    Reminds me of a teratoma the way you describe it. Am curious to find out more, particularly evidence for any explanations.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    Solipsis said:No idea if you could perhaps dope the scion with a synthetic auxin like IBA until it can grow on its own?


    Not the scion, as it would inhibit its growth, but the rest of the stock, although I doubt it: it would have to get deep inside the tissue to affect the meristem.



    I've seen Pulp Fiction a couple of time, I'm sure I could hit it with a syringe ;P

    Quote:
    Quote:
    Solipsis said:@meristem and monstrose: I tried to look it up, it seems like monstrose growth is not from disruption of the meristematic tissue directly but loss of apical dominance so there is no suppression / focused growth. Not sure though what it means indirectly for the histology but it doesn't seem like there is meristem in places or shapes you really wouldn't expect, just deformed along with the shape of the plant.?



    As the virus/bacteria/phytoplasma shows, I'm not sure there is a single factor accounting for all types of monstrosities. There must be multiple processes at work, depending on the plant.
    In every areole of a cactus is a dormant axillary "bud" (sometimes this "bud" is detached from the areole, as in Mammillaria), ready to kick in and produce either new stem tissue, floral tissue, etc., when properly stimulated. Sometimes the vascular cambium can reverse to meristematic state and do it as well (cf. production of pups from nowhere in TBM). But generally, any living plant cell can reverse to meristematic state if the conditions are right (the "totipotence" principle), there are too many possibilities to rule any one out in favour of other.


    Well as in tissue culture, I think new shoots can develop from single cells can't they? Especially when properly stimulated like you said. But I don't remember whether that is only true for meristem culture and whether other cells would just divide into an amorphous blob of tissue.


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    Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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