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Offlineoggleman
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 281
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Nader for Pres.?!
    #2376512 - 02/25/04 05:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I found out yesterday Nader is running for president this year. I think this is a bad idea when we need to focus our energy on getting Bush out of office. I'm not gonna vote for him although I voted for him in 2000. What do you think?


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Offlinekushlover
stringcheesehead

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 803
Loc: USA
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: oggleman]
    #2376525 - 02/25/04 05:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Vote for the candidate you feel would do the best job in office. If you vote for the lessor of the two evils, you're just adding to the furthur diminishment of democracy. The mentality that there are only two "real" candidtates has got to stop.


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What I'm about to tell you is the truth.......
What I just told you is a lie.


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Offlineneuro
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Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 6,617
Loc: Rigel 7
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Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: kushlover]
    #2376531 - 02/25/04 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

>> If you vote for the lessor of the two evils, you're just adding to the furthur diminishment of democracy. The mentality that there are only two "real" candidtates has got to stop.

This was exactly the topic i read in an editorial today about Nader running for prez, in defense of Nader for prez.


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Invisibleshroomsi8
Kadiddle Hooper(Iazinguaswinzagshwamomiter)

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 130
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: neuro]
    #2376548 - 02/25/04 05:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nader keeps getting more votes every time he runs, keep with it.


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Edited by shroomsi8 (02/25/04 05:20 PM)


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Offlinekushlover
stringcheesehead

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 803
Loc: USA
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: neuro]
    #2376555 - 02/25/04 05:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It makes sense. Before you know it, one party will be viewed as the only one with a chance of winning. It's a steady transition to concentrated power. Not good.

btw: I'm not sure who I'll vote for yet, but it will be the candidate I feel is best suited for the job, not the one who I hate less and perceive as having a chance.


--------------------
What I'm about to tell you is the truth.......
What I just told you is a lie.


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OfflineInfrared
sleeping
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Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 12,988
Loc: Chicago, USA
Last seen: 3 years, 11 days
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: kushlover]
    #2376604 - 02/25/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

its kinda premature to be 100% but im either voting for Kerry or kucinich, depending on what the situation is in november of course though. Im not gonna vote for nader , basically because he has no chance of winning... and hes not even supported by the libertarian party anymore. I just want bush gone, i ve had enough of watching him throw our country into the sewer.


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When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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InvisibleKrishna
कृष्ण,LOL
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Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,284
Loc: oakland
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: oggleman]
    #2376635 - 02/25/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I view it as a difficult question... as a first-time voter (although I'm overseas, and not even sure if they will allow me to vote... gotta figure out the logistics of it all), I want my vote to count. Of course, based upon policy, I support Nader more than anybody else (actually I don't really believe in any centralization of power... and if I wanted to be true to my beliefs I would boycott the whole idea of the State... but then again, I wouldn't get anywhere with that approach - sorry Dr Leary!). But the fact is that Bush is Satan incarnate. So... vote Dem? But will the Dems be any different than the Republicans? I tend to think not... I tend to think it is the same basic guys (corporations) pulling the strings on both of our "two" parties. If it was Kucinich, I wouldn't have a problem with voting Dem, because he is actually sortof progressive. But Kerry? I've been out of the States for some time, but still try to stay updated with the NY Times and news.google.com and whatnot... and to me, Kerry just seems like a wishy-washy centralist candidate. Would he have reacted any differently under corporate/mass population pressure to "find the bad guys, wherever they may be?" And, forgetting foreign policy (although as an American living abroad its all I hear about), how would a Dem in office change domestic policy? Maybe not be so avid on privatising health-care... maybe be a bit more supportive of gay marriages... but would there be such a big difference? Again, I tend to think not (americans living in america - do you think this is a valid interpretation of the current Dems vying for office? I've been away and don't have the "homeland" feel for things anymore). I agree with people like Kushlover when he says that he'll vote for the candidate best suited for the job, not the one who he hates less and has a chance... but do you think that our current situation in America calls for drastic measures? For setting aside principles just to get the Spawn of Satan out of office? I dunno, really... just rambling on with my thoughts about this election.

Sorry for the ramble... drank too much wine tonite,
Krishna


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Invisiblechinacat72
eyes of theworld
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Registered: 11/14/02
Posts: 3,626
Loc: Terrapin Station
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: Infrared]
    #2376636 - 02/25/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DeepBlue42 said:
I just want bush gone,




Ditto!! It's sad that we have to vote for the lesser of two evils ,but our goverment is a diseased mess so it doesn't matter. Put a donkey up against Bush and I''ll vote for the donkey(if I can tell them apart). Puting Bush in the  the white house is like puting a gasoline on a fire.
Ashes ashes we all fall down


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Some rise
Some fall
Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: oggleman]
    #2376637 - 02/25/04 05:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there's a thread @ political on this issue.
here's the link: http://shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php...&fpart=all&vc=1

Here's a cut/copy job of my recent posts on the subject:

Quote:

I also think the argument that Nader lost the 2000 election for Gore is weak, but I do not understand Nader's motivations this time around nor will I support him.

In order for a 3rd party to emerge as a powerful player in American politics, they will need a massive grassroots movement or some sort of massive funding source. Otherwise, they would never raise to the level of the Democratic/Republican parties. If someone like Nader runs for president (the highest position in the land) without any grassroots movement or funding, they will not accomplish much. It seems like a futile exercise of ego, especially when you compare what 3rd party electoral campaigns can accomplish in different avenues - local and state or Congressional office.

I do not understand why people will the least chance of winning and with the smallest amount of funding/support waste so much resource and energy running for one of the most unattainable offices in the world. Personally, I think it is simply ego-stroking masscarading as idealism.

2004 is not the time nor place to make a statement on the antiquated-two party system/electoral college. 2004 is the year that we fire George Bush.

I think if Ralph Nader actually desired to work for substantial and sustainable change, he would run for an office that he could at least have a chance to win. Why doesnt he run for a seat in Congress or a state Governor? Why does he continue to shoot for the impossible?

Working on campaigns that will never see victory will only lead to alienation and cynicism and apathy. Nader needs to take a clue from guerilla warefare and realize the importance of fighting winnable battles and building upon such successes. Without a plan, there is no victory. Without victory, a movement dies. A dead movement leads to alienation. Alienation leads to defection. Nader does not seem to have a plan.

Imagine if all of the Nader supporters (I was one) of 1996-2000 had concentrated more on grassroots local, state, and Congressional campaigns instead of "shooting for the stars" by running for the most unattainable office in the world, there would change and resistance and the growing foundation for a successful 3rd party presidential bid. Because we all focused a majority of our energy on a presidential campaign, there is very little movement and foundation today.

Perhaps Nader can force issues that the Democratic Party refuses to address and perhaps Nader can really help weaken George Bush (as was the case with Perot in 1992). But in my opinion, he could do both from the sidelines.

I think Nader is approaching political reform the wrong way; change must occur from the bottom-up, not by engaging in impossible-to-succeed, wasteful campaigns that might have unintended negative consequences.

In 2004, a New-England liberal who has been compromised by corporate interest is the less-of-the-two-evils in a presidential race with a unilateral, ultra-corporate, blatantly dishonest, Big Brother-esque rightwing ideologue who has publically proclaimed that he is "a war president."

I think that 2004 is not the year to make a statement on the antiquated-two party system/electoral college. 2004 is the year to fire George Bush, Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft, Donald Rumsfeld, etc.




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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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InvisibleLetto
Load Universeinto Cannon. Aimat Brain. Fire.
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 2,321
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: oggleman]
    #2376921 - 02/25/04 08:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Last election didn't they have a system online, where Democrats in highly Republican states (i.e. - No chance of Democrats winning that state) traded their votes for Naders, so Nader supporters in mixed states (where the race would be close to 50/50) could swing their state Democratic, but Nader would still get the same number of votes. That would be a good system to set up again.


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Offlinenicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard
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Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 32,985
Loc: So Cal
Last seen: 1 month, 18 days
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: Letto]
    #2377042 - 02/25/04 09:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I will vote for whoever has the best chance of winning and is NOT Bush! Like Chinacat said, I'd vote for a donkey if I thought it would win against Bush. He is an EVIL man who has helped to make our great nation the laughing stock of the international community. I will NOT vote for Nader again. I like many of the things he says, but I stongly feel that we NEED to get Bush out of office, for the sake of "free" people everywhere.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: Letto]
    #2377183 - 02/25/04 10:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

MMerletto,
I remember that and I think that it's a great idea. Is there a website or some organization that's trying to officiate that whole thing?


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Anonymous

Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: kushlover]
    #2377198 - 02/25/04 10:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

For real. Instead of voting for one of the two like every one seems to try and do. Vote for who you realy truely want. Every one tells me dont waste my vote on nader. Well its only a waste not to vote period.


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Offlinevalour
Swordbearer

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1,453
Loc: USA
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: ]
    #2377248 - 02/25/04 11:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with AFungi - vote your conscience.

I will be voting for the candidate most likely to defeat Bush -- and that's my choice alone.
I usually vote Libertarian, but who among you even know who's running for them this time?
(I mean, hell, I just had to look it up :-P)

It is noteworthy that Nader does NOT have the support of the Green Party this time.


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: valour]
    #2377476 - 02/26/04 12:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Offlinevalour
Swordbearer

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1,453
Loc: USA
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: Xochitl]
    #2377506 - 02/26/04 12:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Gah, every picture of him just makes me want to smack him.

Metaphorically, to all of you Secret Service wonks.


--------------------
"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."


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Offlinehwackool
SS
Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 5
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: valour]
    #2377560 - 02/26/04 01:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Please don't let that monkey back in for another term... the world has suffered enough.


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: oggleman]
    #2377603 - 02/26/04 01:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Nader needs to be part of the presidential debates because the democrats are chickens. They raise safe issues to grab votes but never raise adove mediocrity. Yes for the last vote I'll vote whoever has the best chance of beating bush- but until then I'd like to see someone challenge their positions besides the oil baby.


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Offlineoggleman
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Male
Registered: 01/21/04
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Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: oggleman]
    #2380024 - 02/26/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, you all make some good points, the lesser of two evils is still evil but when the greater of the two is SO "evil" then voting for the lesser of the two evils gains some credibility. We HAVE to fire Bush, and Nader is not the one with the possibility of doing it, Kerry is. I voted for Nader in 2000 with the hopes not that he would win the presidency, but with the hopes that he could get 5% of the vote so he could get more funding, more involvement in debates, etc, in future elections. He got 2%. I feel my vote was wasted. Oddly enough my state (IL) elected a democratic governer and had their electoral votes go to the republican candidate in the same exact year! Stupid Illinoisans.

I agree wholeheartedly with Xochitl that he needs to run for a seat in Congress or to be a state governer, something attainable at least. I would support him then, but not now for this office when we have someone like Bush in office. Maybe I'll just write in donkey on the ballot in November...


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Nader for Pres.?! [Re: hwackool]
    #2380387 - 02/26/04 06:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Please don't let that monkey back in for another term




I like how everyone refers to Bush as either a monkey, chimp, or apeboy. lol


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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