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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
A Problem I see with Libertarianism...
    #2306452 - 02/05/04 09:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

...and other uses of Laissez-Faire capitalism.

Let me start out by saying that while I am not totally firm in my beliefs, I would consider the Libertarian party that which I most see eye to eye with. My problem is a matter of time. The idea as I've been led to believe is that government regulation is not neccesary in Laissez-Faire capitalism as problems(generic, I know) will correct themself overtime through competition, etc. Now this is very sound in theory, here's where I may be missing something: If, for example, Company X is polluting some towns water supply(see: initiating force) it might take the government a good while to intervene and stop said initiation. This is just one example I'm throwing out but hopefully I've illustrated my point. Appreciate responses.

Sup by the way, been lurking for a good amount of time, just started posting.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Anonymous

Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2306813 - 02/05/04 10:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If, for example, Company X is polluting some towns water supply(see: initiating force) it might take the government a good while to intervene and stop said initiation

i think that would be a possible problem with any government structure.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2306932 - 02/05/04 11:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As Mushmaster pointed out, this can be a problem under any government.

I once read(but don't know if it's true) that in Sweden, any company which discharges waste water has to get it's water downstream from it's effluent. Although this is by no means a perfect answer, it would seem to be a good disincentive for pollution and in my opinion should be adopted universally.

One of the problems with government regulation (as currently set up in the U.S.) is that if a company is following the regulations for pollutants even though there is damage, the company is protected by law because they followed government guidelines and lawsuits will be thrown out. This would not be allowed under Laissez-Faire, as law suits would be permitted precisely because they can also provide a disincentive to many kinds of noxious behavior.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2307522 - 02/06/04 03:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Question about libertarianism:

How would they deal with things like utilities (electricity, cable internet/tv, water, etc.). I mean, you can't have different competing companies all running different water pipes, and cables, and power lines can you?

In fact, you libertarian guys always address the problem of monopolies with saying monopolies are people who provide the best service at the best price, but really, a lot of the time its more complicated than that isnt it? A lot of the time it has to do with who has the ownership and copyrights, no?


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Tao]
    #2308234 - 02/06/04 12:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think the neocon way around this is if you don't want to pay a monopoly water company you should catch your own rainwater.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Tao]
    #2308416 - 02/06/04 01:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
How would they deal with things like utilities (electricity, cable internet/tv, water, etc.). I mean, you can't have different competing companies all running different water pipes, and cables, and power lines can you?



Why not? You can have things going to one header or a switch box, it's really no big deal. How hard is it to turn a couple of valves and put locks on them? Utility or service providers may also lease lines and pipes that are owned by others, or they may pay usage fees. Such arrangements are quite common among certain businesses such as oil companies and natural gas companies.

Quote:

In fact, you libertarian guys always address the problem of monopolies with saying monopolies are people who provide the best service at the best price, but really, a lot of the time its more complicated than that isnt it? A lot of the time it has to do with who has the ownership and copyrights, no?



Who grants copyrights and patents? Why are monopolies which are run by governments (who don't have to worry about pleasing their customers, nor efficiency) okay, but those of private interests are not? When a government grants itself a monopoly, it will prevent competitors from entering the marketplace, when private entities have aquired a monopoly, they always need to be concerned about competitors arising. Of course governments can help established businesses to keep competitors out through such devices as occupational licensing, permits and fees. These are unseen by most as contributing to monopolies, but they do


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Xlea321]
    #2308490 - 02/06/04 02:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I think the neocon way around this is if you don't want to pay a monopoly water company you should catch your own rainwater.



I can legally drill a well on my property. However, this is contingent upon my payment of a $5,000 fee to the government for the privilege of getting water that exists under my home on 'my' land, this is in addition to the cost of drilling the well and hooking up the water to my house. The government has a monopoly on piped water to my house and would not allow me access until I paid them $3,000 (plus the cost to hook it up, plus the monthly charges for water used).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Evolving]
    #2309029 - 02/06/04 04:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So there would be no copywright protection in a libertarian system? That would be pretty crazy. I think it would also discourage invention and research since everyone would try to free ride by waiting for the other guy to invest money and discover something and then just copy that.

Quote:


Utility or service providers may also lease lines and pipes that are owned by others, or they may pay usage fees. Such arrangements are quite common among certain businesses such as oil companies and natural gas companies.




Correct me if i am wrong, don't most such services have price ceilings if it is a natural resource that is vital so that an owner can't steadily keep raising and raising the profits so that its not worth a competitor to completely build a new infrastructure of powerlines and waterpipes? And who would suddenly come to own all these power lines and pipes over, around and under my property? The reason the state owns these is because the state was necessary to make such a large investment in infrastructure. Every current industrialized state apart from perhaps england (the first) has required state investment to spurn economy.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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Anonymous

Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Tao]
    #2309080 - 02/06/04 05:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So there would be no copywright protection in a libertarian system?

there would.

Correct me if i am wrong, don't most such services have price ceilings if it is a natural resource that is vital so that an owner can't steadily keep raising and raising the profits so that its not worth a competitor to completely build a new infrastructure of powerlines and waterpipes?

the higher the price they were charging, the more incentive a competitor would have to install a competing line.

And who would suddenly come to own all these power lines and pipes over, around and under my property?

the highest bidder.

The reason the state owns these is because the state was necessary to make such a large investment in infrastructure.

private investment (at least in free countries) is vastly larger than government expenditures.

Every current industrialized state apart from perhaps england (the first) has required state investment to spurn economy.

not really.

what is "state investment"? it's still an investment of private capital, just private capital seized by force. for various reasons, private lenders are usually much more efficient and wise with the use of their capital than the government is.

if something is worth doing, it will be done, and voluntarily. it's only when something isn't worthwhile that force must be initiated to make it happen.


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 10 months, 14 days
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: ]
    #2309223 - 02/06/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"i think that would be a possible problem with any government structure."

Without much funding (which generally comes from taxes), it's difficult for a government to effectively regulate these things. Considering the difficulty the government currently has in keeping these things under control, it's difficult to imagine they'd do any better when corporations are given a whole lot of freedom.

What about anti-trust laws?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Phluck]
    #2311323 - 02/07/04 12:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Looking back, the first example wasn't great. May have a better one:

The FDA. Under a Libertarian government, would this still exist If not, would people have to wait for someone to die from some new pill to decide for themselves not to buy it? Would it simply become a privately owned institution, if so how would that work?

Thanks.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: ]
    #2326406 - 02/12/04 12:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

for various reasons, private lenders are usually much more efficient and wise with the use of their capital than the government is.




yeah, cept for that little ol' stock market crash and great depression leading to near anarchy. other than that hands-off economies work great! oh yeah except for argentina in recent year...

the fact is, extreme separation of state and economy has tried and failed and extreme domination of state over economy has tried and failed. There's is a virtuous mean somewhere in there.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Tao]
    #2326506 - 02/12/04 01:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Please inform yourself about the Federal Reserve and how it was set up, by the government. The stock market crash, the great depression and Argentina were all GREATLY affected by monetary policy and central banking practices. Governments and their authorized central banks through fiat currency and centralized lending and interest rate controls GREATLY effect investment decisions and distort markets. To blame these things on a 'hands off economy' displays a lack of understanding of some very important factors.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineTao
Village Genius

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 7,935
Loc: San Diego
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Evolving]
    #2328789 - 02/13/04 12:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well that's the consensus of about 95% of economists regarding the stock market crash, sorry if you choose to be in the other 5%


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: A Problem I see with Libertarianism... [Re: Tao]
    #2328884 - 02/13/04 01:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So your saying that governments creating money out of thin air (fiat currencies), and government supporting and creating central banks which perform fractional reserve lending to 'get the economy going' and also create money out of thin air, that these have no effect on the economy? That these have no influence on purchasing decisions and investment decisions? That these are examples of a 'hands off' economic policy?

Appeals to authority or popularity do not make a valid argument. Try again.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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