Home | Community | Message Board


FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
OfflineTheCaptain
addict

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 426
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
The root of all our problems???
    #1373917 - 03/13/03 09:22 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Suburban Sprawl....


SInce the end of the second world war the population of North American cities has been shifting from a distinctly higher density urban setting to one of much lower density, single family dwellings on the periphery of the "American" Metropolis. With the production shift in the post war economy to one of a production based industry, the automobile has become affordable, highway systems prolific, and allowing the development of vast sprawling suburbs that are sponsored in part by free enterprise and federal investment. Chances are, you probably live in one.

Those leaving the city were for the most part middle class whites, who could afford single family homes, and an average of 2.3 vehicles per household. With them they took businesses, patronage, and most importantly- the tax base. They left behind the urban poor. Mostly African American, or minority families who could not afford housing elsewhere. The inner city neighbourhood became impoverished, infrastructure, jobs, services, and schools all but disappear or crumble under the lack of funding or poor tax base and leaves few ways out of this lifestyle. Affordable, efficient transit to areas that provide employment (suburbs) is non-existant in most cases. Crime is rampant.

The vast infrastructure that supports our suburban dream-turn-nightmare contributes to the decentralization of our nations population. Vast highway expanses constructed to alleviate the transportation problems of older suburban developments perpetuate the creation of more low density housing. Shopping malls, and grocery stores, work, school, and friends are for but a few exceptions only accessible by car. The average american family makes 12 automobile trips per day with their 2.3 cars, and commutes on average 34 miles. Commutes to work are increasing, as are dependancy on energy (which is mostly imported, as we all know..) and the resulting pollution.

Our current lifestyle isnt sustainable, and furthermore creates more problems than it solves. The sprawl which we have created and perpetuate erodes our communities, makes us dependant on polluting cars, which greedily consume unrenewable resources and force us to rely on imported energy.

Think about it. :smile:   


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1374383 - 03/14/03 03:10 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

This is why I live within a half mile of both my college and my job. I rarely need to go any further than my tiny little spot in the middle of the city.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,199
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1374389 - 03/14/03 03:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The root of all our problems???



Liberals and the PC movement are the main cause.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1374599 - 03/14/03 05:05 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You're grasping at straws. Most extremely large cities are very recent historically, for most of human history people did not live in large population centers. This changed with the advent of the industrial age.

If governments lack sufficient tax base to finance their wasteful spending (and they DO waste incredible amounts of money), tough shit. Governments, like tax payers have to learn to live within their means.

I see nothing wrong with people wanting a better life and moving away from big cities. As people begin to more widely accept the idea of telecommuting we will see the natural progression of the information age lifestyle away from the industrial age lifestyle.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinepsilo25
The one stuck inthe middle ofthis hopelessmess.

Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 244
Loc: over here
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1374610 - 03/14/03 05:10 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

The root of all our problems???



Liberals and the PC movement are the main cause.



Amen to that!


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1374833 - 03/14/03 06:24 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

so you're blaming all problems on urban sprawl? So much for personal responsibility eh?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTheCaptain
addict

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 426
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: Evolving]
    #1375079 - 03/14/03 07:42 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Liberals and the PC movement are the main cause.



Lol, what????

Quote:

so you're blaming all problems on urban sprawl? So much for personal responsibility eh?



All problems? No. But I do beleive that the situation created by poor planning and the creation of suburbs has paralyzed the social mobility of the people who need it most. Do the people living in the inner city have a responsibility to take it under their own power to commute to a suburban school which is much better at offering a chance to succeed for its pupils? While you may say yes, consider the economic wall that they face. The chances of getting a job sufficient for social mobility within the inner city is grim. Personal responsibility will only take you so far.


Quote:

You're grasping at straws. Most extremely large cities are very recent historically, for most of human history people did not live in large population centers. This changed with the advent of the industrial age.




Im not talking about the city itself, but the suburbs- low density single family housing. While large cities are recent, high density urban centers date back quite some time. Industrialization meant urbanization for the rural populations of that age.

Quote:

If governments lack sufficient tax base to finance their wasteful spending (and they DO waste incredible amounts of money), tough shit. Governments, like tax payers have to learn to live within their means.




Its not a government problem exclusively. More likely planning has a great deal of influence. The problem is, they are living within their means. Urban centers are poor as fuck (not the CBD mind you), businesses that were located here have relocated to the suburbs in shopping centers... this all means that the urban inner city has no income, is not making any money to spend on services. Urban schools dont get funding, etc... They wont get money either because they arent making any, and its seen as a waste.


Quote:

I see nothing wrong with people wanting a better life and moving away from big cities. As people begin to more widely accept the idea of telecommuting we will see the natural progression of the information age lifestyle away from the industrial age lifestyle.




2.8 million acres of farmland are developed each year within the united states to facilitate suburban sprawl. Inceased reliability on automobile transportation has led to longer commutes, increased congestion, air pollution, and relying on foreign oil sources. The low density of this development negates the efficiency of public transit.... While we try to get away from the city, we are creating more peoblems.

Progeression away form the industrial age has been taking place, but its left us relying on gas guzzling, polluting vehicles to get around. No matter how much telecommuting you do, people still have to GO places in their cars. In actual fact, the number of trips and commuting times have been increasing. The more we decentralize the more we will need to get in a car and go get groceries, shop, etc...


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,199
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1375156 - 03/14/03 08:11 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liberals and the PC movement are the main cause.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lol, what????




Sorry if I wasn't clear. They are the main source of most of what ails the world today, not urban sprawl.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTheCaptain
addict

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 426
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1375349 - 03/14/03 09:29 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

hahha, ok....





--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLoverofEarth
spirit on ajourney

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 206
Loc: the in-between
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1375648 - 03/14/03 11:08 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

you make a very good point. modern society is a marriage of greed and ignorance. how many can say they are above it?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1375674 - 03/14/03 11:14 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I see the suburbs (i live in) as a horrible blight on the earth and the way we were supposed to live. It is a mass confusion consuming mass that consumes all, and clouds the purity of nature. I count the days till i move "away" from the cities, buy my property, and live of my land mostly self-sufficiently.

I feel like a "worker bee" going from job to condo house etc, everday without ever having the option of supporting myself. I dont feel obligated to pay taxes and i dont even vote, i have no faith in our government and feel like an observer as i watch our world spiral into chaotic madness.

I dont need to work 5 days a week 9-5....all i need is a few acres some equipment, and the will to farm it. Yet sadly if not for special circumstances, i would never have a chance to do this.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1376064 - 03/14/03 01:32 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

By equipment I assume you mean a tractor and some impliments for the tractor?

If so screw that and just get some COMMUNITY and do it TOGETHER........


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTheCaptain
addict

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 426
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: upupup]
    #1376233 - 03/14/03 02:38 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

yeh, i agree... Thats kinda what i was thinking as well. The current system is seclusionary- people grow up and die on their own little plot of land designed around vehicle transportation to take you everywhere else. People live there without really interacting that much with the people in your immediate neighbourhood. You could argue the social ramifications of this, but i believe its conditioning us to be reclusive.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1376580 - 03/14/03 05:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

No doubt about it. People under 70 don't know how to carry on a conversation.....

I think it has a great deal to do with TV, that's why I don't have one.....people think it's weird but to me it's weird to have one......

I have lived in community several times. For your average American this is a very difficult thing to do but I am convinced that it's the way things are going to have to be eventually......


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1376783 - 03/14/03 07:46 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I see the logic in the factual evidence you present. Namely that suburban sprawl is a significant contributor to the urban decline. However, what you may fail to realize is that this could and most likely is a short term condition.

To wit, this magnificant technology by which you and I are communicating now. Granted it will take some effort to reach a point whereby most people can do significant work from a home office but it's here and it's getting to be more of a reality everyday.

Further, advances in transportation, beyond the car, may be just around the corner.

Of course, it could all collapse under the weight of it's own greed and stupidity.

I guess you'll have to choose which way to look at it.

Myself? Hey, I'm hoping for all out world war; BRING ON THE BOMBS BABY.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: mr freedom]
    #1376838 - 03/14/03 08:10 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I like your style! :smile:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTheCaptain
addict

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 426
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: mr freedom]
    #1377456 - 03/15/03 06:21 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

While i didnt present it in my postings on the subject, I too think this may be a temporary development, but only if we actively make it temporary.

Im not sure technology is the answer to sprawl though... consider the technological developments to date. We've come up with some great things to make living in low density environments much easier- which might not force us to change that lifestyle. And more importantly, would the service sector jobs which have been providing employment for suburbanites allow us to work at home?

As for transportation, i think that individual transportation isnt really the answer...and it may continue the process as it initiated it with affordability of the auto after WWII. Im all for increasing population densities and getting some mass transit working....

But then again, maybe we should wait till after the nuclear war to start making things nice. :smile: 


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineupupup
guardian

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 889
Loc: George "I love Hitler" Bu...
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: mr freedom]
    #1377474 - 03/15/03 06:32 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Myself? Hey, I'm hoping for all out world war; BRING ON THE BOMBS BABY.

Would I be mistaken in assuming that your;
1- Seriouse
2- Have never been in a war
3- Have never been shot at
4- Have never seen a person die
???????????


--------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinemr freedom
enthusiast
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 232
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: The root of all our problems??? [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1377872 - 03/15/03 09:54 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I concur, it is only with our active involvement that this "sprawl" shall become transitory in nature.

"While i didnt present it in my postings on the subject, I too think this may be a temporary development, but only if we actively make it temporary. "

Certainly the current technologies only came to exist to support suburban sprawl. While this fact makes it likely that more technological advances will simply perpetuate this "lifestyle" certainly SOCIAL technologies may have the effect of ending the furtherance of suburban sprawl. One must consider that, though particular "service jobs" must be continued to another generation or two, there may exist some social technologies that would direct the masses back toward a more urban environ.

"We've come up with some great things to make living in low density environments much easier- which might not force us to change that lifestyle. And more importantly, would the service sector jobs which have been providing employment for suburbanites allow us to work at home? "

Unfortunatley mass transport is not likely to be developed until it becomes a necessity. Consider that even with the advent of better fuel efficiency, alternative fuels or even electric cars the demand for individual transportation needs will remain; we do live on a LARGE continent. As to the method for mobility I really dislike the nature of our highway system. Although quite well maintained, the highways leave much to be desired in terms of local disruption to ecological systems, increased accidents, and the INEVITIBALE SHOPPING MALLS that creep up along side any major highway. I would prefer underground roads. Granted the engineering at this time period would entail MAJOR disruption of ecological systems, it woule be short term and the advantage is that above the ground the world could look much more like what our ancestors would have seen.

"As for transportation, i think that individual transportation isnt really the answer"


UPUPUP
While I hate to address replys that are off topic I'll so do as it pertains to THIS topic.

Yes, I'm serious. While I find war with Iraq immoral, unnecessary, ludicrous and not in keeping with the spirit of self-defense I am TOTALY serious about the aspect of a world war. This would preclude the furtherance of suburban sprawl. Communitys would HAVE to come together for defense and survival. Though, granted, these communities would not resemble the large cities that not dot the landscape of the U.S.

I have been in the service and while doing what I saw as my duty was engaged in combat but not war.

Not only have I been "shot at" I've been shot TWICE; the last time nearly taking my life.

I told you I've been in combat; I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

To consider my stance on the SUBJECT OF SUBURBAN SPRAWL it is not necessary to consider my stance, understanding of nor my critcism or OPTIMISM of war. War is inevitable. I cannot stop it. You cannot stop it. All we can do is be vigilant in regards to our own saftey and the safety of our friends and family. This war WILL ignite the world; this too is inevitable. I doubt, seriously, that the shores of the U.S. are in dire threat but the lives of the young ARE in dire threat; it is this that concerns me.

In the short term, the "war over there" would allow the unthinking citizens of the U.S. to blindly support the "war effort" without any critical thinking about how many of OUR young lives are lost to said war. If the "war over there" comes to our shores then it will get the attention of those that blindly support the war. HOPEFULLY the net effect will be a complete reordering of the way in which this country sees it's role in the world and the way in which we ultimately live our lives. I see it as the only tool by which the massses will forget their day to day lives and become SELF GOVERNING once again; a return if you will to what this country was originaly intended to be.

Now, stay on topic and give us your views of SUBURBAN SPRAWL and the methods by which it might be stopped or the way it should be perpetuated if that's your stance.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Most Liberal City continues Death Spiral lonestar2004 1,605 16 08/18/05 02:11 PM
by lonestar2004
* School Choice and Urban Sprawl JesusChrist 391 0 11/02/05 12:14 AM
by JesusChrist
* The REAL problem with the Middle East
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
lysergic 7,685 158 10/06/03 10:57 PM
by Solitude
* Canadians beat U.S. Army to New Orleans suburb SquattingMarmot 769 17 09/11/05 04:41 PM
by vc77
* The Real Roots of Islamic Terrorism Divided_Sky 765 10 09/07/04 11:07 AM
by thieverycorp
* Give addicts thier drugs, and alot of problems would be solved.
( 1 2 3 all )
Northernsoul 2,804 44 10/27/04 03:51 PM
by silversoul7
* Problem - reaction - solution
( 1 2 all )
Shins 1,405 20 10/13/08 01:00 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* "high crimes and felonies" the Downward Spiral amanita3 347 1 08/30/02 09:27 AM
by Phluck

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
736 topic views. 1 members, 0 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.045 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 19 queries.