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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Did you ever think...
    #2219966 - 01/05/04 07:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

About how strange it is that of all the species you could've been, you were born a human being? Imagine if you had been born as some other animal without self-awareness. Or how about other beings that do have self-awareness? Do you think chimps or dolphins ever ponder the meaning of life or the existence of some diety? Just some food for thought.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2219969 - 01/05/04 07:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, let's expand on that.  (Sorry, I'm still awake.)

What animal would you be if you hadn't been born a human?    :grin:

I took an online personality test once that said if I were a dog, I would be a chiwawa.  (Sorry, for some reason, I can't remember how to spell any more.  I think I'm really phuckin' tired and I should really be in bed.) 

I took another test once that said I would be an owl.  :confused:

Personally, based on my own perceptions of myself, I think I would have been a monkey.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: Frog]
    #2219970 - 01/05/04 07:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

On DXM, I'm a reptile of some sort.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2219982 - 01/05/04 07:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think if dolphins are as conscious as we are, they're praising their lack of hands to make tools with, seeing what we did with the world a while after we created technology.

I think I'd be a deep sea octopus (a Dofleini or summit), a komodo dragon, a wolf or a condor. Any would do.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Anonymous

Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2220062 - 01/05/04 09:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There are a lot of incorrect presuppositions in your post.
Animals and humans are radically different in kind. There are no other animals that ponder anything because they lack the equipment to do so. They are incapable of conceptualizing.


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OfflineJAMsper
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2220127 - 01/05/04 09:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How many times would you have been another creature (with or without consciousness) before the one you are now??

And, would that include creatures on other worlds of the universe?
As the universe is endless, they're is an endless chance of other worlds with life to exist.

[ot]
Do you guys think that theory is right? It's just my theory.. but I'm pretty convinced that I'm right.
[/ot]


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: ]
    #2220174 - 01/05/04 10:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
There are a lot of incorrect presuppositions in your post.
Animals and humans are radically different in kind. There are no other animals that ponder anything because they lack the equipment to do so. They are incapable of conceptualizing.



And how exactly are we able to test this? I've seen you make these claims about the "radical difference" between humans and animals since I first came to the Shroomery, yet I never see you provide evidence or examples.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: ]
    #2220237 - 01/05/04 10:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

> There are no other animals that ponder anything because they lack the equipment to do so.

I would agree with you for most animals, but not all. Many different types of animals show the ability to problem solve. Studies with crows have shown that they are able to solve one type of problem and then apply what they have learned to solving a different type of problem. There is another type of bird (forgot the species name) that uses small twigs to pull termites out of terminte mounds. The behviour is taught and learned rather than being instinct. Some of the large cats know by instinct how to hunt and kill, but they don't know how to eat what they kill unless they are taught by their mother. These cats will starve to death if they do not learn to eat what they hunt. Lets also not forget the primates that have been taught sign language... at least two that I am aware of. I think animals are a lot more 'human' than most people are willing to admit.


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Anonymous

Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2220398 - 01/05/04 01:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I have mentioned the radical difference between man and other animals but I only started to delineate it once.

The supposition that I am referring to cannot be easilly tested for by empirical methods. Instead a thorough examination of human consciousness versus animal consciousness by philosophical means gives us adequate evidence that we have the ability to conceptualize and other animals do not.


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Anonymous

Re: Did you ever think... [Re: Seuss]
    #2220408 - 01/05/04 01:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Problem solving can occur without the use of concepts.  A computer can solve problems and so can a calculator.  Would you say they have consciousness as well?

The animals and their behaviors you are referring to are instances of perceptual abstraction, a type of cognition.  That is completely different from conceptualizing which uses 'concepts'.

Maybe I can find something on the Internet that will help explain the difference.  Otherwise it would require a lot of discussion, research, etc, on my part.  I get lazy when it comes to that.

In order to speak about this meaningfully we have to use very precise terms, wouldn't we?

Still nice to see that "A" by your name. :wink: :smile:


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2220445 - 01/05/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Based on my beliefs, humans and animals have different souls, and thus experience different cycles of reincarnation and evolution. Thus a human never becomes animal and vice versa. However, there is an exception where the newborn human soul first goes through the perception of several animals, to gain some grounding in physical reality and survival. These are our spirit animals... the animals whom we saw through their eyes briefly before our incarnation to learn.

But to answer your question.. I think thagt dolphins are smarter than most humans, so yes, they ponder, (and enjoy) the meaning of life.


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OfflineEvilGir
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2220474 - 01/05/04 02:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well isnt it only us and dolphins that recognise our selves in the mirror other animals just think the reflection is an other animal. There is data on it somewhere but i dont have time to look at the moment.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.


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Anonymous

Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2220483 - 01/05/04 02:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i've always thought that i was a dog in a past life,when i was about 5 or 6 years old i dreamt that i was a little brown dog and i was in a pack of strays and i remember when i woke up i was so sad that i wouldn't see my mates anymore.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: EvilGir]
    #2220505 - 01/05/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yes and also dolphins are the only other species on Earth besides humans that seem to have sex for pleasure or love instead of just procreation. Also, dolphins have larger frontal lobes and larger brains altogether than humans.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: EvilGir]
    #2220529 - 01/05/04 02:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

jezu said:
Well isnt it only us and dolphins that recognise our selves in the mirror other animals just think the reflection is an other animal. There is data on it somewhere but i dont have time to look at the moment.



No, not just us and dolphins. Most of the great apes can also recognize their reflection.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2220658 - 01/05/04 03:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's not really that strange if you look at life from my point of view. In my opinion, i've been everything and everyone......including YOU!

:shocked:


www.scp-inc.org/publications/journals/J2202/images/cwg%26pic.gif">


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Offlinerecalcitrant
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2220847 - 01/05/04 04:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I saw this learning show once where chimps were having sex like crazy. the narrator said that they have sex for all sorts of reasons; mothers will fuck their sons when they get scared to calm them down, some had sex out of (what was supposed to be) boredom, all sorts of weird reasons.

as for animals thinking, i dont rightly know, none have ever told me one way or the other..


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Anonymous

Re: Did you ever think... [Re: Seuss]
    #2221166 - 01/05/04 07:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, I found a link.  Oddly enough it was from the ol' "Radical Academy", the second link I posted in the Philosophical links sticky at the top of this forum.  I swear you guys would do yourselves a lot of good by taking a trip over there sometime.

http://radicalacademy.com/askacademy17.htm

It asks and answers these questions:

1. Is man different in kind or only in degree from animals, especially other mammals?

2. If different in kind, not in degree, is that difference superficial and therefore reducible to a difference in degree, or is it radical and irreducible?

Enjoy!  :lol:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Did you ever think... [Re: ]
    #2221236 - 01/05/04 07:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That link is just as vague as you when it comes to this subject. It claims that animals have no conceptual thought, but provides no evidence to back up their claim.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Did you ever think... [Re: silversoul7]
    #2221426 - 01/05/04 09:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ok. That one was a more thorough treatment than I would have taken the time to type myself.

Here is a link to an even more thorough treatment.

http://www.thegreatideas.org/dmd02.html


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