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 silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu   Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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About how strange it is that of all the species you could've been, you were born a human being? Imagine if you had been born as some other animal without self-awareness. Or how about other beings that do have self-awareness? Do you think chimps or dolphins ever ponder the meaning of life or the existence of some diety? Just some food for thought.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire 
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 Frog Warrior   Registered: 10/22/03 Posts: 4,284 Loc: The Zero Point F Last seen: 13 years, 6 months |
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Okay, let's expand on that. (Sorry, I'm still awake.)
What animal would you be if you hadn't been born a human?  I took an online personality test once that said if I were a dog, I would be a chiwawa. (Sorry, for some reason, I can't remember how to spell any more. I think I'm really phuckin' tired and I should really be in bed.) I took another test once that said I would be an owl.  Personally, based on my own perceptions of myself, I think I would have been a monkey. -------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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On DXM, I'm a reptile of some sort.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Alan Stone Corpus  Registered: 11/23/02 Posts: 986 Loc: Ten feet up Last seen: 21 years, 1 month |
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I think if dolphins are as conscious as we are, they're praising their lack of hands to make tools with, seeing what we did with the world a while after we created technology.
I think I'd be a deep sea octopus (a Dofleini or summit), a komodo dragon, a wolf or a condor. Any would do. -------------------- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
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Anonymous |
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There are a lot of incorrect presuppositions in your post.
Animals and humans are radically different in kind. There are no other animals that ponder anything because they lack the equipment to do so. They are incapable of conceptualizing.
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JAMsper Psychodelic  Registered: 09/23/03 Posts: 62 Last seen: 20 years, 8 months |
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How many times would you have been another creature (with or without consciousness) before the one you are now??
And, would that include creatures on other worlds of the universe? As the universe is endless, they're is an endless chance of other worlds with life to exist. [ot] Do you guys think that theory is right? It's just my theory.. but I'm pretty convinced that I'm right. [/ot]
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silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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And how exactly are we able to test this? I've seen you make these claims about the "radical difference" between humans and animals since I first came to the Shroomery, yet I never see you provide evidence or examples. --------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Seuss Error: divide byzero   Registered: 04/27/01 Posts: 23,480 Loc: Caribbean Last seen: 1 year, 5 months |
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> There are no other animals that ponder anything because they lack the equipment to do so.
I would agree with you for most animals, but not all. Many different types of animals show the ability to problem solve. Studies with crows have shown that they are able to solve one type of problem and then apply what they have learned to solving a different type of problem. There is another type of bird (forgot the species name) that uses small twigs to pull termites out of terminte mounds. The behviour is taught and learned rather than being instinct. Some of the large cats know by instinct how to hunt and kill, but they don't know how to eat what they kill unless they are taught by their mother. These cats will starve to death if they do not learn to eat what they hunt. Lets also not forget the primates that have been taught sign language... at least two that I am aware of. I think animals are a lot more 'human' than most people are willing to admit. -------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Anonymous |
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Yes, I have mentioned the radical difference between man and other animals but I only started to delineate it once.
The supposition that I am referring to cannot be easilly tested for by empirical methods. Instead a thorough examination of human consciousness versus animal consciousness by philosophical means gives us adequate evidence that we have the ability to conceptualize and other animals do not.
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Anonymous |
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Problem solving can occur without the use of concepts. A computer can solve problems and so can a calculator. Would you say they have consciousness as well?
The animals and their behaviors you are referring to are instances of perceptual abstraction, a type of cognition. That is completely different from conceptualizing which uses 'concepts'. Maybe I can find something on the Internet that will help explain the difference. Otherwise it would require a lot of discussion, research, etc, on my part. I get lazy when it comes to that. In order to speak about this meaningfully we have to use very precise terms, wouldn't we? Still nice to see that "A" by your name.  
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Shroomism Space Travellin   Registered: 02/13/00 Posts: 66,015 Loc: 9th Dimension 
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Based on my beliefs, humans and animals have different souls, and thus experience different cycles of reincarnation and evolution. Thus a human never becomes animal and vice versa. However, there is an exception where the newborn human soul first goes through the perception of several animals, to gain some grounding in physical reality and survival. These are our spirit animals... the animals whom we saw through their eyes briefly before our incarnation to learn.
But to answer your question.. I think thagt dolphins are smarter than most humans, so yes, they ponder, (and enjoy) the meaning of life. -------------------- 
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EvilGir Im the on coming storm  Registered: 11/26/01 Posts: 1,301 Loc: Planet Irk Last seen: 10 years, 2 months |
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Well isnt it only us and dolphins that recognise our selves in the mirror other animals just think the reflection is an other animal. There is data on it somewhere but i dont have time to look at the moment.
-------------------- Fighting the man the best way I can.
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Anonymous |
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i've always thought that i was a dog in a past life,when i was about 5 or 6 years old i dreamt that i was a little brown dog and i was in a pack of strays and i remember when i woke up i was so sad that i wouldn't see my mates anymore.
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Shroomism Space Travellin Registered: 02/13/00 Posts: 66,015 Loc: 9th Dimension
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yes and also dolphins are the only other species on Earth besides humans that seem to have sex for pleasure or love instead of just procreation. Also, dolphins have larger frontal lobes and larger brains altogether than humans.
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silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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No, not just us and dolphins. Most of the great apes can also recognize their reflection. --------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Learyfan It's the psychedelic movement!  Registered: 04/20/01 Posts: 35,626 Loc: High pride! Last seen: 26 minutes, 38 seconds |
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It's not really that strange if you look at life from my point of view. In my opinion, i've been everything and everyone......including YOU!
 -------------------- -------------------------------- Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People 
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recalcitrant My Own God  Registered: 04/20/02 Posts: 2,927 Loc: Canada West Last seen: 10 years, 3 months |
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I saw this learning show once where chimps were having sex like crazy. the narrator said that they have sex for all sorts of reasons; mothers will fuck their sons when they get scared to calm them down, some had sex out of (what was supposed to be) boredom, all sorts of weird reasons.
as for animals thinking, i dont rightly know, none have ever told me one way or the other.. -------------------- 
We have to answer our own prayers
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Anonymous |
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Ok, I found a link. Oddly enough it was from the ol' "Radical Academy", the second link I posted in the Philosophical links sticky at the top of this forum. I swear you guys would do yourselves a lot of good by taking a trip over there sometime.
http://radicalacademy.com/askaca It asks and answers these questions: 1. Is man different in kind or only in degree from animals, especially other mammals? 2. If different in kind, not in degree, is that difference superficial and therefore reducible to a difference in degree, or is it radical and irreducible? Enjoy! 
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silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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That link is just as vague as you when it comes to this subject. It claims that animals have no conceptual thought, but provides no evidence to back up their claim.
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous |
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Ok. That one was a more thorough treatment than I would have taken the time to type myself.
Here is a link to an even more thorough treatment. http://www.thegreatideas.org/dmd02.html
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falcon  Registered: 04/01/02 Posts: 8,426 Last seen: 2 hours, 38 minutes |
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But when we discover that these two states of matter are reducible to the velocity at which the molecules of water and of ice are in motion, we learn that the difference in kind between water and ice is only a difference in the degree of the velocity of molecular particles.
Thia is wrong this guy doesn't pocess a high schoolers understanding of chemistry if he was talking about a nonpolar molecule this example might hold water. edit the second link makes the same mistake and I can't spell, and that they don't realize that is is a mistake is significant in that they do not understand the properties of an example they are using. The differences between water and ice are a differenc in kind. For ice to become water a lot of energy has to be added to break the polar bonds between H and O. These polar forces are also important inthe diference between steam and water. If they had used wax as an example it would have been valid, but less convincing these guys seem to ignore some basic principles of matter or unaware. They also like to take the long way home.  
another edit I just finished reading the first link, and I think once you concede perceptual thought you are talking about a question of degree. Its an oxymoron. What does peceptual thought? Edited by falcon (01/05/04 08:45 PM)
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Anonymous |
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Hmmm
So you are saying that liquid water is H2O but ice and steam are not H2O? The author's point was that each state of H2O is a different form of the same thing. And different by degree. They aren't teaching chemistry. But at least you read those articles which is more than most people will do.
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Frog Warrior Registered: 10/22/03 Posts: 4,284 Loc: The Zero Point F Last seen: 13 years, 6 months |
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I read it, starting after they finished talking in math concepts. My brain freezes up at numbers. Or at anything that sounds like geometry, statistics, numbers, 1+1, etc....
Humans, alone, use reason and language and concepts, which elevates them above animals. Some animals can problem-solve, but that is the limit of their intelligence and doesn't make them as intelligent as humans. -------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Anonymous |
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A brilliant synopsis if you ask me, concise and to the point.
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infidelGOD illusion  Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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I read it and that essay is so full it.. I don't even know where to start...
first of all, the law of the excluded middle does not apply. biologists say that it's entirely possible for a chimp and a human to mate and produce (non-viable) offspring. it's never been done (for obvious cultural reasons), but there's no physical, biological mechanism preventing it. there are no discrete classifications. it's a continuum of species. secondly, he tries to point out "contradictions" in the writings of biologists, but those statements are not contradictory at all once you realize that a difference in kind is a difference in degree. it's typical but he has made an analytical distinction that works in principle, but gets messy when applied to reality. he needs to study the concepts of emergent properties and critical mass, which deal with how in the real world, differences in degree can give rise to differences in kind. "many writers, philosophers as well as scientists, into the contradiction of asserting, on the one hand, that man differs only in degree from other animals, while acknowledging, on the other hand, that man is able to do certain things that no other animal is able to do at all." this is NOT a contradiction. the ability to conceptualize and use reason is a function of a larger, more complicated human brain, something that differs in degree to a smaller animal brain. this is not a fundamental difference in kind between animals and humans (look at the example of the mentally retarded. do they lack something? or do they just have less of something? think about it). and besides, animals can conceptualize things, though to a lesser degree than humans. chimps can use tools and form concepts about family ties, friendships, past offenses etc. this is conceptualizing at a basic level. to say that we are fundamentally different just because we can conceptualize at a higher level is just stupid. now, if he were to say that the ability to conceptualize is not a function of the size and the degree of complexity of the human brain, that it is distinct from any difference in degree, he can certainly make that point.. but it would be on him to provide proof. all he does in that essay is attack the currently accepted evolutionary model.
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Swami Eggshell Walker  Registered: 01/18/00 Posts: 15,413 Loc: In the hen house |
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There was a chimp that had learned ASL. When it ate watermelon for the first time, it called it (in sign language) "candy fruit". I thought that to be a fairly clever conceptualization.
-------------------- 
The proof is in the pudding.
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silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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You mean there's a chimp that uses AOL Instant Messenger? --------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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Koko the gorilla, if that's how you spell her name, once saw a swan on a TV screen and signed the words "water" and "bird". some naysayers say that she was only describing the different elements in the picture, but I doubt it. it sounds like a simple conceptualization.
unfortunately, it's impossible to prove definitively that these animals can conceptualize, because we don't know what's really going on inside their minds, but there's a mountain of evidence out there supporting it. question: assuming that you believe in evolution, at what point did humans become separate from animals? was there a single individual that was no longer an animal? at some point did a pre-human mother give birth to a human child? what was the criteria that made him human? was it a discrete trait, or did a combination of factors and traits (like cranial capacity) reach a critical mass?
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falcon Registered: 04/01/02 Posts: 8,426 Last seen: 2 hours, 38 minutes |
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When water becomes ice it has very different properties than water, it gives up an incredible amount of energy to make the jump to ice. It is not a gradual change from water to ice. It is less dnese. It floats. I'm not sure about this one , but I believe the refractive index changes when water becomes ice. With water and ice there are differences that go beyond degree.
I think the authors would have made a better analogy if they had used the differences between water and ice as a difference in kind. I think they used water because it is associated with life so strongly, and to use it in the way they did is misleading. Almost any other liquid that becomes a solid would have been a good example of a change of degree. I suggested wax because with wax there is a gradual change of state, it hardens. edit: There is also a problem with the logic used by the second link; Even though he goes to great lengths to describe differences in degrees and kind, his argument is dependent on finding contradictions in the statements of experts.. edit:
there is much more going on with water and ice than a difference of velocity of the molecular particles when polar forces play such a large role in how water becomes ice. Water has some structure but it is fluid, another bad pun, ice is structured steam has little if not polar bonding so no structure. thank MM I haven't thought about this stuff for along time. Edited by falcon (01/06/04 05:36 PM)
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Alan Stone Corpus Registered: 11/23/02 Posts: 986 Loc: Ten feet up Last seen: 21 years, 1 month |
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Humans became human when the species Homo sapiens sapiens arose, some 100,000 years ago in Africa. Why only then? Because the species beforehand didn't have the same anatomy or brain capacity.
On humans being the only species to be able to rationalise... Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and the archaic homo sapiens were different species than we are, and they both made tools and showed signs of conceptual thought. I'll go look for a link somewhere, and I'll see if I can get some info on why neanderthals became extinct and we didn't (although both species could speak and neanderthals had bigger brains - about 160cc's more). -------------------- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
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Anonymous |
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Actually you're so full of it I don't know where to begin.
For starters since we don't have much time as the server is going down let me post a quote/link about "Koko" the "talking" primate: Here is an example of Koko, "talking" Question: Koko are you going to have a baby in the future? Koko signs: Pink Patterson explains: We had earlier discussion about colors today. Question: Do you like to chat with people? Koko signs: Fine nipple. Patterson explains: Nipple rhymes with people, she doesn't sign people per se, she was trying to do a "sounds like..." Question: Does she have hair? Or is it like fur? Koko signs: Fine. Patterson explains: She has fine hair. Question: Koko, do you feel love from the humans who have raised you? Koko signs: Lips, apple give me. Patterson explains: People give her her favorite foods. Check out this link. The skeptics should love it, it's from the Skeptical Inquirer. http://www.csicop.org/articles/k It is interesting how many people will cling to an instance or a few instances when their philosophical presuppositions are challenged. Lips apple give me. Yep, that ape sure can talk!
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Swami Eggshell Walker Registered: 01/18/00 Posts: 15,413 Loc: In the hen house |
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These apes do better at human talk than humans can do at "ape talk". Dogs and dolphins also understand our words better than we understand "Arf! Arf! and "Squeek-clik-clik".
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
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DoctorJ  Registered: 06/30/03 Posts: 8,846 Loc: space Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
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   Look at these pictures. Then think about which brain YOU would rather have. Gorilla- Human- Dolphin Kind of a natural progression (in terms of brain complexity, anyways)
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silversoul7 Chill the FuckOu Registered: 10/10/02 Posts: 27,301 Loc: mndfreeze's pupp |
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Actually, those were all just subspecies of Homo Sapiens, and therefore were all the same species. To go back to a human ancestor that was a different species, you'd have to look at Homo Erectus. Anyway, I think we're talking about different species that are alive today, so I don't think it's relevant to discuss other homonids. --------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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DoctorJ Registered: 06/30/03 Posts: 8,846 Loc: space Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
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no, neanderthalis was a completely different species with a huge brain and a pelvic hinge, for birthing children with huge brains. Genetic evidence suggests no relationship to homo sapiens, though they may have been related further back in time on the evolutionary chain
despite having bigger brains, neanderthalis was not smarter than sapiens. Studies on the neanderthal brain suggest that it had a less developed frontal lobe than sapiens. size doesnt matter, its how you use it
Edited by DoctorJ (01/07/04 01:37 PM)
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Alan Stone Corpus Registered: 11/23/02 Posts: 986 Loc: Ten feet up Last seen: 21 years, 1 month |
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What studies on their brains? Last I heard of, brains don't fossilize because they're too soft a material. All I've been taught is that the skull has a larger volume and that the skeletal structure showed them to be about 20-30% stronger than modern Europeans would be. They also had tools, but less of them, and lived in smaller groups. Couldn't their extinction be based on something else than intelligence? Like longer pregnancy, or a higher mortality rate in childbirth?
It just looks like it's always assumed that any being that came before us must have been more stupid, because they didn't survive. Jericho and Catal H?y?k never became centers of great civilisations, but they were the first cities. One says nothing about the other. -------------------- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
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Anonymous |
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Genetic evidence suggests no relationship to homo sapiens, though they may have been related further back in time on the evolutionary chain
Please explain how they have genetic evidence regarding Neanderthals. In the meantime I'm going to write up an answer to infidelGOD's posts. ------------------------------------------------- Edit I did a quick search and found that the theories regarding man's origins and specifically their breeding with other hominids are in conflict with one another. I don't know about you but I think I would wait for these arguments to be resolved before hanging my hat on their tentative conclusions. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/03/0306_0306_outofafrica.html Edited by Mr_Mushrooms (01/07/04 02:46 PM)
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DoctorJ Registered: 06/30/03 Posts: 8,846 Loc: space Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
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I believe they were examining the shape of the skull, in addition to its size, when they concluded that the neanderthalis had inferior abstract reasoning capabilities. Of course that is very questionable. I wasnt trying to say that i had the exact answer, I was merely adding some info to the table. I had to write a paper on this a couple years ago for an undergrad class. Unfortunately, I wrote it on the computers at school, so I dont have a copy 
Bones contain genetic info. ever read Jurrasic park? You might recall a passage in which Grant sets aside junk bones from a dig site to be shipped to a genetics lab. I remember seeing something on PBS that showed a genetic tree of man and his ancestors. It was like this: | | | | |\ | \ | \ | Neanderthalis | | | / | \ Homo erectus, sapiens, etc... Could be wrong/outdated info though...
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falcon Registered: 04/01/02 Posts: 8,426 Last seen: 2 hours, 38 minutes |
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We may not be a different species than neandrethals, but if we are different we probably ate them.
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Panoramix Getafix  Registered: 11/26/03 Posts: 634 Loc: Everywhere else Last seen: 13 years, 10 months |
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Koko used sign language to make jokes on several occaisons. If you ask me, once an animal is capable of humour I think it's only reasonable to consider it equal. Whether that means that it can IEATPEOPLE conceptualize is up to anyone's personal opinions.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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Anonymous |
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Interesting.
In the meantime I dug up (a pun) another link: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=164492 It says: *"Genetic typing of ancient samples is technically challenging, because DNA is generally degraded and present in small amounts in the available specimens. * emphasis mine. I dunno man. That looks to me as if the "evidence" is pretty flimsy. I imagine this is why a debate has been raging in this area of study heatedly for at least the last ten years. See the link in my last post for more details.
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Anonymous |
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first of all, the law of the excluded middle does not apply.
biologists say that it's entirely possible for a chimp and a human to mate and produce (non-viable) offspring. it's never been done (for obvious cultural reasons), but there's no physical, biological mechanism preventing it. there are no discrete classifications. it's a continuum of species. Yes, there is a line of demarcation between humans and other primates. Your hypothesis only makes sense if you think we have a common ancestor. In other words, your presuppositions are guiding your reason. secondly, he tries to point out "contradictions" in the writings of biologists, but those statements are not contradictory at all once you realize that a difference in kind is a difference in degree. it's typical but he has made an analytical distinction that works in principle, but gets messy when applied to reality. he needs to study the concepts of emergent properties and critical mass, which deal with how in the real world, differences in degree can give rise to differences in kind. I don?t know. Maybe you and I read different articles. Because the one I read clearly delineates the various types of differences that can exist between two different entities. The author states that there clearly are differences in kind that are only apparent. They should not be confused with differences in kind that are superficial or radical. From the article: An observable or manifest difference in kind may be based on and explained by the fact that one of the two things being compared has a factor or element in its constitution that is totally absent from the constitution of the other; in consequence of which the two things, with respect to their fundamental constitution or make-up, can also be said to differ in kind. I will call such difference in kind "radical" to indicate that the observable or manifest difference in kind is itself rooted in an underlying difference in kind. Like the word "superficial," the word "radical" is also here used in a purely descriptive sense, not eulogistically . A superficial difference in kind is, as a manifest or observable difference, no less a real difference in kind than a radical difference in kind. If one does not go below the observable differences to explain them in terms of the factors from which they arise, all real differences in kind are alike. It is only when we do try to explain them in terms of underlying factors that they can be distinguished and recognized as superficial or as radical differences in kind. The words "apparent" and "superficial" have enough affinity of meaning in ordinary speech to cause confusion. I, therefore, beg the reader to observe--and henceforth remember--that the distinction between superficial and radical difference in kind applies only to manifest differences in kind that are real, not apparent (i.e., not reducible to differences in degree by the introduction of intermediate forms to fill the gap or break in the series that made the things being compared appear to differ in kind). The fact that a superficial difference in kind is one that can be explained by an underlying difference in degree does not reduce that difference in kind to a difference in degree. Even when so explained, the difference in kind remains; for between the two things being compared, one of which has certain property totally lacked by the other, no intermediates are possible with respect to the property in question. The fact that intermediates are always possible in the underlying series of degrees that makes this real difference in kind superficial does not alter the picture; for a given degree is either above or below the critical threshold and so is correlated with either the possession or the lack of the property in question, and it is this that constitutes the superficial difference in kind. If this is remembered, the reader will not be likely to confuse a superficial difference in kind, which is really a difference in kind, with an apparent difference in kind, which is really a difference in degree. Consider the difference between inert or inanimate bodies and living organisms. We all recognize that living organisms manifest certain behavioral characteristics not to be found in the behavior of inert or inanimate bodies. By virtue of this fact, we would, therefore, say that they differ in kind. But according to the way in which this observable difference in kind is explained, it is regarded either as a radical or as a superficial difference in kind. If, for example, we accept the explanation of the vitalists, that there is a soul or vital principle in the make-up of living organisms, totally lacking in the constitution of inert bodies, then we treat the difference in kind as radical. But if we accept the explanation of the mechanists, that living organisms are merely more complex organizations of matter and that the degree of their material complexity lies above a certain critical threshold, then we treat the difference in kind as superficial. Thus we see that the same manifest difference in kind may be regarded as radical or as superficial according to the way in which it is interpreted; that is, according to the explanation given of it, or according to the underlying factors or conditions posited to explain it. "many writers, philosophers as well as scientists, into the contradiction of asserting, on the one hand, that man differs only in degree from other animals, while acknowledging, on the other hand, that man is able to do certain things that no other animal is able to do at all." this is NOT a contradiction. the ability to conceptualize and use reason is a function of a larger, more complicated human brain, something that differs in degree to a smaller animal brain. this is not a fundamental difference in kind between animals and humans (look at the example of the mentally retarded. do they lack something? or do they just have less of something? think about it). and besides, animals can conceptualize things, though to a lesser degree than humans. chimps can use tools and form concepts about family ties, friendships, past offenses etc. this is conceptualizing at a basic level. to say that we are fundamentally different just because we can conceptualize at a higher level is just stupid. Would you care to delineate the difference between perceptual abstraction and conceptual abstraction? You are conflating one with the other. now, if he were to say that the ability to conceptualize is not a function of the size and the degree of complexity of the human brain, that it is distinct from any difference in degree, he can certainly make that point.. but it would be on him to provide proof. all he does in that essay is attack the currently accepted evolutionary model. Indeed. There are other places where the author makes a case that this is not simply just a brain complexity issue. I just didn?t include them in the argument, yet. Koko the gorilla, if that's how you spell her name, once saw a swan on a TV screen and signed the words "water" and "bird". some naysayers say that she was only describing the different elements in the picture, but I doubt it. it sounds like a simple conceptualization. I think we already covered Koko, the ?talking? gorilla in the link and quote I provided. Would you care to comment on that? unfortunately, it's impossible to prove definitively that these animals can conceptualize, because we don't know what's really going on inside their minds, but there's a mountain of evidence out there supporting it. It is only impossible to show evidence if you rely solely on scientific data and interpretation. Philosophy can easily show us what is going on in their minds just as it can ours. And the ?mountain of evidence? you are referring to is a lot of data with specific interpretations driven by unexamined philosophical presuppositions. question: assuming that you believe in evolution, at what point did humans become separate from animals? was there a single individual that was no longer an animal? at some point did a pre-human mother give birth to a human child? what was the criteria that made him human? was it a discrete trait, or did a combination of factors and traits (like cranial capacity) reach a critical mass? Assuming that you think macroevolution is an accurate theory there would be much that cannot be explained. These issues are tangential ones and shouldn?t even be included in this discussion unless you are relying on those suppositions as conclusive evidence for your position. Human language is distinctive precisely because it employs concepts as well as percepts. This accounts for the fact that human utterance is not predictable in the same way as the signs employed by other species. For example, children acquire language not only by seeing things but also by having things described to them. But, above all, it is the unique human ability to employ propositional language that clinches the humanist position. This requires a distinction between categorematic (name-words, such as nouns, verbs, adjectives) and syncategorematic words (particles, such as articles, prepositions, and conjunctions). The former makes it possible to refer to objects, both perceptible and imperceptible; the latter, to put these words into propositions. Animalists refuse to accept these and other distinctions between human and non-human language, the most important of which is the distinction between signs used as signals and signs used as designators. Signals are implicative in their meaning-if smoke, then fire-and they imply particular things, objects, or events. But designators are denotative in such a manner that an object is never denoted as a unique individual but as a particular belonging to a class, as in the use of the word ?smoke.? The speaker maybe objecting to a particular puff of smoke coming from the next table but must employ a class-word, ?smoke,? in order to get the cigar put out. As a result, the denotation of an object by a designator always involves connotative significance. Connotation can work in several ways. In the case of smoke, it can lead one to meditate on matters as diverse as health, human rights, and courtesy. It could also lead one to think of a certain vintage of Port. Connotative significance can also work logically as the utterance of a broad term like ?furniture? could lead one to think of a ?chair,? ?table,? or ?bed.? Conceptual thinking even changes the way humans respond to implicative signals, evidence for which can be seen on any interstate highway. The inseparability of denotation and connotation cannot be explained without concept formation. First of all, class-names are derived, not from the particular, but from a whole class of objects; classes themselves, like ?furniture? or ?smoke,? are not objects of perception. The difference between perception and conception, between implication and denotation/connotation, is the difference between recognizing that and knowing what. Perceptual abstraction cannot produce the designative meaning of common names, with its wide range of connotative significance. Concepts are meanings, therefore, in ways that percepts cannot be. Conceptual meaning provides the key to understanding the uniqueness of the designator in relation to the signal, especially how its mode of signification arises out of a triadic exchange between the sign, the object, and its significance. Swami: There was a chimp that had learned ASL. When it ate watermelon for the first time, it called it (in sign language) "candy fruit". I thought that to be a fairly clever conceptualization. Actually, that is a clever perceptualization. See directly above. Alan Stone: Humans became human when the species Homo sapiens sapiens arose, some 100,000 years ago in Africa. Why only then? Because the species beforehand didn't have the same anatomy or brain capacity. On humans being the only species to be able to rationalise... Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and the archaic homo sapiens were different species than we are, and they both made tools and showed signs of conceptual thought. I'll go look for a link somewhere, and I'll see if I can get some info on why neanderthals became extinct and we didn't (although both species could speak and neanderthals had bigger brains - about 160cc's more). Brain capacity doesn?t have a lot to do with this argument either. There are plenty of other species that have larger brains. I think the sperm whale?s brain is 6x larger than ours.
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falcon Registered: 04/01/02 Posts: 8,426 Last seen: 2 hours, 38 minutes |
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perceptual abstraction how can something be a perception and a abstraction?
wrong question Abstractions are percieved? Edited by falcon (01/07/04 08:55 PM)
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Anonymous |
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There are percepts; things that are perceived by the senses. And there are concepts; things that are conceived by the intellect.
Neither percepts nor concepts are ever directly apparent, except by inference, to anyone. They are like the lense by which we perceive or conceive. But, that, is another argument.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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Yes, there is a line of demarcation between humans and other primates. Your hypothesis only makes sense if you think we have a common ancestor. In other words, your presuppositions are guiding your reason.
hold everything! are you saying that chimps and humans do not share a common ancestor? what are you a creationist or something? before we talk about my hypothesis (Darwin's actually), can you please share your view on how humans came to be if we did not evolve from earlier primates? and you didn't adress my point. the author says that a difference in kind requires discontinuity - an excluded middle. well, it's possible (with genetic engineering) to have a series of individuals with continuous variation between man and ape. for there to be a true difference in kind, this gap must be unbridgeable. I don?t know. Maybe you and I read different articles. Because the one I read clearly delineates the various types of differences that can exist between two different entities. The author states that there clearly are differences in kind that are only apparent. They should not be confused with differences in kind that are superficial or radical. I wasn't talking about the subtypes of differences in kind. I was refering to the higher level analytical distinction between differences in kind and differences in degree. I was pointing out that this distinction is entirely academic because in the messy real world, a difference in degree can give rise to a difference in kind. since he acknowledges this in the passage you quoted, how can he later say that those experts are contradicting themselves? he writes: For example, in a recent book co-authored by a Nobel Prize winner in the field of genetics, we find the following statement: "Not until 50,000 to 75,000 years ago was the biological job complete, and an individual whom we would recognize as kin today--Homo sapiens--walked and talked and used his hands and head much as we do. He did not differ from apes in kind (nor do we), but he differed greatly in degree...." That statement appears on page 41. Less than two pages earlier, the same writers make the following observation, without any awareness that they will shortly contradict themselves: "... with the initial discovery that one can make tools, our species appeared on the evolutionary horizon. Apes can use tools, but only man can fabricate them." [2] The difference between merely using tools and fabricating them, which is here emphasized, combined with the assertion that only man can fabricate tools, plainly points to a difference in kind, flatly denied two pages later when it is said that men and apes do not differ in kind, however greatly they differ in degree this is just silly, he's seeing contradictions where there are none. the unnamed "Nobel Prize winner in the field of genetics" is obviously saying that human beings differ in degree from apes and that our ability to fabricate tools is derived from those differences in degree. no contradiction. it's like saying that a) a newborn and an adult differ only in degree and b) only the adult is able to fabricate tools. no contradiction. maybe he should take his own advice: "If one does not go below the observable differences to explain them in terms of the factors from which they arise, all real differences in kind are alike. It is only when we do try to explain them in terms of underlying factors that they can be distinguished and recognized as superficial or as radical differences in kind." I'll use his terminology if you prefer: the ability to conceptualize (or fabricate tools or whatever) is an "apparent difference in kind" because it is derived from a difference in degree (the size and complexity of the brain). human beings are not radically different in kind from animals, unless you can prove that our ability to conceptualize comes from some source other than our biology. I have entertained such thoughts before, I used to think that maybe we were really fundamentally different from animals, that we had something "special" that animals lacked, but when it comes to my beliefs, I prefer not to invoke such "forces". I try to deal with observable reality. there were people in the world, not so long ago, who wanted to keep the earth and humanity at the center of the universe. they jailed Galileo and accused him of blasphemy for telling the truth. they thought we were special in some way, God's creation... or something. they couldn't stand the thought that maybe, just maybe, we're just a colossal accident of nature and that we're inhabiting a fleck of dust orbiting some nondescript star on the outskirts of a typical spiral galaxy in an enormous ineffable void. to some, it's the most frightening thing to be stripped of meaning and purpose. it's a combination of fear, ego and dogma. I see frightening parallels with today's creationists. Would you care to delineate the difference between perceptual abstraction and conceptual abstraction? You are conflating one with the other. huh? I'm conflating one nonsensical term with another nonsensical term? first you need to answer falcon's question "how can something be a perception and a abstraction?" we are talking about sensory perception are we not? how can perception be an abstraction? and just what the fuck is a "conceptual abstraction"? do you mean to say "concept"? aren't concepts abstractions by definition? one term is contradictory, the other is redundant... I know what you're trying to say, but you need some better terms. and you didn't even adress my point. would you agree that the ability to conceptualize is a function of our biology? you have said that animals cannot conceptualize because "they lack the equipment to do so". what equipment do they lack? what is it that humans have that animals don't? if it is not the size and degree of complexity of our brains that allow us to conceptualize, then WHERE DOES THIS ABILITY COME FROM? I think we already covered Koko, the "talking" gorilla in the link and quote I provided. Would you care to comment on that? the Koko anecdote was just that - an anecdote. it doesn't effect at all my position that humans differ from animals in degree. no one claimed that Koko was proficient at sign language or that she could communicate normally with a human being. she only knows about 1000 sign gestures and recognizes about 2000 spoken words, so she's not gonna be able to carry on a real conversation or make much sense. but she DOES know how to use language to communicate with humans at a very basic level. it doesn't even matter if this is not real conceptualization because the ability to conceptualize is derived from a difference in degree. btw, here's the full transcript of that conversation with Koko: http://www.koko.org/world/talk_aol.html Philosophy can easily show us what is going on in their minds nope. it's arrogance to think that philosophy can show us what's really going on in the minds of animals. philosophy shows us what's going on in our minds when we ponder what's going on in the minds of animals. we can never really know. Human language is distinctive precisely because it employs concepts as well as percepts... This requires a distinction between categorematic (name-words, such as nouns, verbs, adjectives) and syncategorematic words... Connotative significance can also work logically as the utterance of a broad term... The inseparability of denotation and connotation cannot be explained... understanding the uniqueness of the designator in relation to the signal, especially how its mode of signification arises out of a triadic exchange between the sign, the object, and its significance... blah blah blah. none of this is relavent anyway. so what if humans can use some fancy language and concepts? can you prove that this isn't merely the function of our complex brains (which differ only in degree from gorilla brains)? the human gestalt is unique and can be said to be radically different from all other animals, but you must look beyond that. I'll quote the author again: "If one does not go below the observable differences to explain them in terms of the factors from which they arise, all real differences in kind are alike. It is only when we do try to explain them in terms of underlying factors that they can be distinguished and recognized as superficial or as radical differences in kind." what is the underlying factor that gives us the ability to conceptualize and use language? if not our biology than what?
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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Look at these pictures. Then think about which brain YOU would rather have.
I'll take the human brain. look at the scale
Bones contain genetic info. ever read Jurrasic park? You might recall a passage in which Grant sets aside junk bones from a dig site to be shipped to a genetics lab. actually, it's almost impossible to extract DNA from dinosaur fossils because they are no longer bone, they're 65 million year old rock. with neanderthals, you could find actual bone (with the DNA containing marrow inside) because it wasn't that long ago. I remember seeing something on PBS that showed a genetic tree of man and his ancestors. It was like this: | | | | |\ | \ | \ | Neanderthalis | | | / | \ Homo erectus, sapiens, etc... Could be wrong/outdated info though... you got neanderthals and homo erectus reversed. actually there are several variations on that family tree, several ongoing debates. Homo Erectus as direct ancestor of modern humans vs. evolutionary dead end. Neanderthals as evolutionary dead end vs. contributing to modern human genetic stock. we do know that Neanderthals were not direct human ancestors. couple of imcomplete family trees: Australopithecine | | | Homo Erectus | |\ | \ | Neanderthal | Homo Sapiens Australopithecine | | |\ | \ | Homo Erectus | |\ | Neanderthal |/ | Homo Sapiens
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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Problem solving can occur without the use of concepts. A computer can solve problems and so can a calculator. Would you say they have consciousness as well?
um no. computers do not solve problems. they are merely tools used by humans to solve problems. kinda like chimps using a stick to solve the problem of getting those termites out of the ground. a difference in degree.
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Anonymous |
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Yes, there is a line of demarcation between humans and other primates. Your hypothesis only makes sense if you think we have a common ancestor. In other words, your presuppositions are guiding your reason.
hold everything! are you saying that chimps and humans do not share a common ancestor? what are you a creationist or something? before we talk about my hypothesis (Darwin's actually), can you please share your view on how humans came to be if we did not evolve from earlier primates? I am saying that you because you assume that chimps and humans have a common ancestor there must be a difference in degree. Underneath your statements there seems to be an overarching or under riding principle. I see it as a kind of materialism. But that is besides the point, isn?t it? If you are a materialist and you can defend your views coherently and cogently you have the better argument. Asking for labels and presuppositions seems like trying to pigeonhole, or shoehorn me into an oversimplified category. I?ll give you a label though. I see myself as a defender of metaphysical immaterialism. You can call me, Doc, for short. and you didn't adress my point. the author says that a difference in kind requires discontinuity - an excluded middle. well, it's possible (with genetic engineering) to have a series of individuals with continuous variation between man and ape. for there to be a true difference in kind, this gap must be unbridgeable. That?s a rather bold statement. But aren?t we talking about the differences in kind that occur naturally? This sounds like an ad hoc assumption to defend a particular philosophical position, materialism. I don?t know. Maybe you and I read different articles. Because the one I read clearly delineates the various types of differences that can exist between two different entities. The author states that there clearly are differences in kind that are only apparent. They should not be confused with differences in kind that are superficial or radical. I wasn't talking about the subtypes of differences in kind. I was refering to the higher level analytical distinction between differences in kind and differences in degree. I was pointing out that this distinction is entirely academic because in the messy real world, a difference in degree can give rise to a difference in kind. since he acknowledges this in the passage you quoted, how can he later say that those experts are contradicting themselves? he writes: For example, in a recent book co-authored by a Nobel Prize winner in the field of genetics, we find the following statement: "Not until 50,000 to 75,000 years ago was the biological job complete, and an individual whom we would recognize as kin today--Homo sapiens--walked and talked and used his hands and head much as we do. He did not differ from apes in kind(nor do we), but he differed greatly in degree...." That statement appears on page 41. Less than two pages earlier, the same writers make the following observation, without any awareness that they will shortly contradict themselves: "... with the initial discovery that one can make tools, our species appeared on the evolutionary horizon. Apes can use tools, but only man can fabricate them." [2] The difference between merely using tools and fabricating them, which is here emphasized, combined with the assertion that only man can fabricate tools, plainly points to a difference in kind, flatly denied two pages later when it is said that men and apes do not differ in kind, however greatly they differ in degree this is just silly, he's seeing contradictions where there are none. the unnamed "Nobel Prize winner in the field of genetics" is obviously saying that human beings differ in degree from apes and that our ability to fabricate tools is derived from those differences in degree. no contradiction. it's like saying that a) a newborn and an adult differ only in degree and b) only the adult is able to fabricate tools. no contradiction. maybe he should take his own advice: No, it isn?t silly. It is entirely logical. What mid-step is there between being able to fabricate a tool and not being able to fabricate a tool? "If one does not go below the observable differences to explain them in terms of the factors from which they arise, all real differences in kind are alike. It is only when we do try to explain them in terms of underlying factors that they can be distinguished and recognized as superficial or as radical differences in kind." I'll use his terminology if you prefer: the ability to conceptualize (or fabricate tools or whatever) is an "apparent difference in kind" because it is derived from a difference in degree (the size and complexity of the brain). Is it? Could there be something about humans that is immaterial not residing in the brain that makes us different? human beings are not radically different in kind from animals, unless you can prove that our ability to conceptualize comes from some source other than our biology. I have entertained such thoughts before, I used to think that maybe we were really fundamentally different from animals, that we had something "special" that animals lacked, but when it comes to my beliefs, I prefer not to invoke such "forces". I try to deal with observable reality. Observable reality? So what about the mind? It isn?t directly observable and there are components that aren?t observable in any way other than through philosophical enquiry. there were people in the world, not so long ago, who wanted to keep the earth and humanity at the center of the universe. they jailed Galileo and accused him of blasphemy for telling the truth. they thought we were special in some way, God's creation... or something. they couldn't stand the thought that maybe, just maybe, we're just a colossal accident of nature and that we're inhabiting a fleck of dust orbiting some nondescript star on the outskirts of a typical spiral galaxy in an enormous ineffable void. to some, it's the most frightening thing to be stripped of meaning and purpose. it's a combination of fear, ego and dogma. I see frightening parallels with today's creationists. We have something in common. I see these ?frightening parallels? in creationists, and atheists, and materialists, etc. In fact, I see them everywhere where people do not question the underlying presuppositions that form the basis for their worldview. Would you care to delineate the difference between perceptual abstraction and conceptual abstraction? You are conflating one with the other. huh? I'm conflating one nonsensical term with another nonsensical term? First you need to answer falcon's question "how can something be a perception and a abstraction?" we are talking about sensory perception are we not? how can perception be an abstraction? and just what the fuck is a "conceptual abstraction"? do you mean to say "concept"? aren't concepts abstractions by definition? one term is contradictory, the other is redundant... I know what you're trying to say, but you need some better terms. No, neither of those phrases are nonsensical. And if you know what I am trying to say that proves it. I specifically chose those phrases because they lack specific connotations. I could have chosen alternate words that have a plethora of meanings and really confused the issue. When we speak of perception we are dealing with sensory input. When we use sensory input to ?think? we are abstracting, using the word as a transitive verb. Hence, perceptual abstraction means to think without using concepts. Which is precisely what other animals do, some of them quite well. Since I used the word ?abstraction? in the first case I was compelled to use it in the second case to avoid unnecessary confusion. Conceptual abstraction means to ?think? using concepts that do not rely on the senses. Universals are a good example of that. You may ?know? what a triangle looks like but you also have ?triangularity? as a concept in your mind. aren't concepts abstractions by definition? This is where the confusion lies. And this is also why you imagine that animals can conceptualize. If they did they would be able to use propositional speech because it contains the elements of conceptualization within it. and you didn't even adress my point. would you agree that the ability to conceptualize is a function of our biology? you have said that animals cannot conceptualize because "they lack the equipment to do so". what equipment do they lack? what is it that humans have that animals don't? if it is not the size and degree of complexity of our brains that allow us to conceptualize, then WHERE DOES THIS ABILITY COME FROM? The brain may be a necessary condition for conceptualization but it is not a sufficient condition. Animals lack the immaterial portion of being that humans have. I cannot say with certitude where it comes from. Wouldn?t that be getting ahead of ourselves? I think the first thing to do would be to establish the existence of an entity before I hypothesize its origin. I think we already covered Koko, the "talking" gorilla in the link and quote I provided. Would you care to comment on that? the Koko anecdote was just that - an anecdote. it doesn't effect at all my position that humans differ from animals in degree. no one claimed that Koko was proficient at sign language or that she could communicate normally with a human being. she only knows about 1000 sign gestures and recognizes about 2000 spoken words, so she's not gonna be able to carry on a real conversation or make much sense. but she DOES know how to use language to communicate with humans at a very basic level. it doesn't even matter if this is not real conceptualization because the ability to conceptualize is derived from a difference in degree. btw, here's the full transcript of that conversation with Koko: target="_blank">http://www.koko.org/world/talk_aol.html My cat can also communicate with me on a very basic level. He is readily able to understand the signal ?treat? means he is going to get something to eat. There isn?t any conceptualization going on in his brain. And neither is there in Koko?s. Philosophy can easily show us what is going on in their minds nope. it's arrogance to think that philosophy can show us what's really going on in the minds of animals. philosophy shows us what's going on in our minds when we ponder what's going on in the minds of animals. we can never really know. Nope. Even introspection cannot reveal the contents of the human mind without philosophical examination. But with the available evidence we can deduce the contents of the human and animal mind. Materialists often do not understand the importance of philosophy or philosophical examination. They refer all their questions to science and scientific investigation. Human language is distinctive precisely because it employs concepts as well as percepts... This requires a distinction between categorematic (name-words, such as nouns, verbs, adjectives) and syncategorematic words... Connotative significance can also work logically as the utterance of a broad term... The inseparability of denotation and connotation cannot be explained... understanding the uniqueness of the designator in relation to the signal, especially how its mode of signification arises out of a triadic exchange between the sign, the object, and its significance... blah blah blah. none of this is relavent anyway. so what if humans can use some fancy language and concepts? can you prove that this isn't merely the function of our complex brains (which differ only in degree from gorilla brains)? the human gestalt is unique and can be said to be radically different from all other animals, but you must look beyond that. I'll quote the author again: "If one does not go below the observable differences to explain them in terms of the factors from which they arise, all real differences in kind are alike. It is only when we do try to explain them in terms of underlying factors that they can be distinguished and recognized as superficial or as radical differences in kind." Of course it is relevant. It is the core of the argument. I am not sure what you mean by ?prove?. When I hear that word red flags start to wave. Are you speaking of certitude? Your confusion here resides in the difference between perceptual and conceptual abstraction. what is the underlying factor that gives us the ability to conceptualize and use language? if not our biology than what? The immateriality of the mind gives us the ability to conceptualize and use language. The brain may or may not be a necessary condition for that. It is certainly not a sufficient condition.
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DoctorJ Registered: 06/30/03 Posts: 8,846 Loc: space Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
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I did. did you? the two brains are about the same size. I have seen them on the same scale, but unfortunately those pics are unavailable on the internet. The main difference is the fissures. compare the # of fissures in the gorilla brain to the human brain. Then compare the # of fissures in the human brain to the dolphin brain. size isnt as important as complexity. look at computers.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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I am saying that you because you assume that chimps and humans have a common ancestor there must be a difference in degree.
it's a reasonable assumption based on physical evidence, unlike your "metaphysical immaterialism". you could call me a "materialist" if you want, but you'd be wrong. I've discussed immaterial things in this very forum. the reason I believe in the theory of evolution is not because I believe it to be a perfect, absolute Truth. I believe it because it is the best available theory that fits the data. there certainly aren't any logical alternatives out there. you haven't provided one. all you've done, like the author of the essay is to bash an existing theory while offering no alternative. I see myself as a defender of metaphysical immaterialism. You can call me, Doc, for short. well that's nice but you didn't answer the question. here it is again: can you please share your view on how humans came to be if we did not evolve from earlier primates? you refuse to answer direct questions, so I can't help but make assumptions about your position. am I to assume that you're a creationist who thinks that the earth is 6000 years old? if not, can you please share your specific views on human origins? That?s a rather bold statement...This sounds like an ad hoc assumption... it's only a possibility, which is why I said "it's possible to..." even is it is remotely possible to have a series of individuals with continuous variation between man and ape, this disproves the law of the excluded middle, which is required to have a difference in kind. But aren?t we talking about the differences in kind that occur naturally? yes. it's called evolution. No, it isn?t silly. It is entirely logical. What mid-step is there between being able to fabricate a tool and not being able to fabricate a tool? I think you missed the point. even if there is no mid-step there, the underlying factor that allows the fabrication of tools is something that differs in degree. in other words, it is a superficial difference in kind - the ability to fabricate tools comes when a difference in degree reaches a critical threshold. it is NOT a contradiction to say that A differs from B in degree, but only A is able to do certain things. see my example about newborns and adults. Could there be something about humans that is immaterial not residing in the brain that makes us different? yes there certainly could be - I've entertained such possibilities in the past... and you keep alluding to this immaterial "something" but I've yet to see a satisfactory definition or description of it (I haven't been able to come up with one myself, maybe you could do better). I hope your entire argument isn't dependent on this nebulous immaterial thing. there's more to it isn't there? Conceptual abstraction means to "think" using concepts that do not rely on the senses. Universals are a good example of that. is it possible to have a concept that is completely independent of sensory perception? can you impress upon a non-perceiving being, the concept of triangularity? be careful with that one. aren't concepts abstractions by definition? This is where the confusion lies. is that a yes or no? another direct question goes unanswered... And this is also why you imagine that animals can conceptualize. reading comprehension alert! I said concepts are abstractions, not vice versa. btw, my argument doesn't depend on animals being able to conceptualize. The brain may be a necessary condition for conceptualization but it is not a sufficient condition. it MAY be a necessary condition? if I remove your brain, you can't conceptualize. it's as simple as that. this has been adaquately demonstrated by lobotomies. a man with his frontal cortex removed acts very much like an animal - a non-conceptualizing, non-reasoning hairless ape (in fact, he is worse off than an ape). and of course, a man with a full brain and a man with half a brain differ only in degree. any differences in kind that emerge between the two (like the ability to use reason, conceptualize etc.) are derived from this difference in degree and are therefore superficial differences in kind. Animals lack the immaterial portion of being that humans have. I cannot say with certitude where it comes from. there's that immaterial thing again.. is it wise to base your view of the physical world on this thing when you "cannot say with certitude where it comes from". and you talk about my presuppositions? I had assumed that you were attacking evolution because you had a cogent alternative. perhaps I was wrong. Wouldn?t that be getting ahead of ourselves? I think the first thing to do would be to establish the existence of an entity before I hypothesize its origin. I acknowledge the existence of the immaterial. I do not believe this is what seperates man from beast. My cat can also communicate with me on a very basic level. He is readily able to understand the signal "treat" means he is going to get something to eat. There isn?t any conceptualization going on in his brain. And neither is there in Koko?s. 1) your cat is not using language 2) apes can communicate better than cats, and humans better than apes - differences in degree. 3) it doesn't matter if it's not really conceptualization. the important thing is to see where this ability to conceptualize comes from. if it can be reduced to something that differs in degree, it is not a radical difference in kind. Of course it is relevant. It is the core of the argument. what argument? that humans can conceptualize and animals can't? that's the wrong argument. the real issue is where this ability comes from. if the source of this ability can be reduced to a difference in degree, the resulting manifest difference in kind is superficial. it's real simple: whatever unique abilities that are manifest in humans can't be taken unto themselves as proof of a radical difference in kind. they must be understood in terms of their underlying factors.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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yeah I'd agree with that. even if dolphins have smaller brains, I think they're very intelligent. perhaps even sentient.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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Neanderthals buried their dead. I wonder if this is just another "clever perceptualization"
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger   Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 10 months, 19 days |
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Nothing wrong with this.  Peace. --------------------  
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you   
 
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falcon Registered: 04/01/02 Posts: 8,426 Last seen: 2 hours, 38 minutes |
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Anonymous |
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I am saying that you because you assume that chimps and humans have a common ancestor there must be a difference in degree.
it's a reasonable assumption based on physical evidence, unlike your "metaphysical immaterialism". you could call me a "materialist" if you want, but you'd be wrong. I've discussed immaterial things in this very forum. the reason I believe in the theory of evolution is not because I believe it to be a perfect, absolute Truth. I believe it because it is the best available theory that fits the data. there certainly aren't any logical alternatives out there. you haven't provided one. all you've done, like the author of the essay is to bash an existing theory while offering no alternative. You see your underlying philosophical presuppositions as reasonable. But how much effort have you put into examining them? No need to answer that, it is rhetorical. It seems as if you are a materialist but as I said that doesn?t have anything to do with your argument or your ability to argue. Frankly, I don?t care what your philosophical presuppositions are as long as they don?t interfere with your ability to reason. You accuse the author, and myself, of bashing evolution. But I see that as picking nits. I have said very little about evolution in this argument and neither did the author. That is, of course, unless you think that arguing for the difference in man and his discontinuity in nature is attacking evolution. I see myself as a defender of metaphysical immaterialism. You can call me, Doc, for short. well that's nice but you didn't answer the question. here it is again: can you please share your view on how humans came to be if we did not evolve from earlier primates? you refuse to answer direct questions, so I can't help but make assumptions about your position. am I to assume that you're a creationist who thinks that the earth is 6000 years old? if not, can you please share your specific views on human origins? No, I didn?t answer the question because you haven?t given valid reasons for asking it. You needn?t assume anything about me if you don?t want to. I could assume all kinds of things about the reason(s) you are asking for my presuppositions or man?s origin. But I try not to assume something as tangential to the argument as that. So let me ask you directly: Why do you want to know this? Are you looking for some novel new theory that can show physical evidence that man is discontinuous with nature? Do you want to paint me as a Creationist so that you can dismiss what I say with a hand wave? My reasons for adhering to this argument have little to nothing to do with the validity of the argument, do they? Please answer this. That?s a rather bold statement...This sounds like an ad hoc assumption... it's only a possibility, which is why I said "it's possible to..." even is it is remotely possible to have a series of individuals with continuous variation between man and ape, this disproves the law of the excluded middle, which is required to have a difference in kind. As I said, that is an assumption predicated on a previous philosophical, or more likely, ?scientific? presuppositions. And since that assumption is predicated on further interpretations of data that could be incorrect it has no bearing that I can see on this argument. It is a ?just so? story. I am not interested in what ?might? been here as I am interested in what is here. And what is here is a radical difference in kind between man and other species. But aren?t we talking about the differences in kind that occur naturally? yes. it's called evolution. Assumption. No, it isn?t silly. It is entirely logical. What mid-step is there between being able to fabricate a tool and not being able to fabricate a tool? I think you missed the point. even if there is no mid-step there, the underlying factor that allows the fabrication of tools is something that differs in degree. in other words, it is a superficial difference in kind ? the ability to fabricate tools comes when a difference in degree reaches a critical threshold. it is NOT a contradiction to say that A differs from B in degree, but only A is able to do certain things. see my example about newborns and adults. Your analogy of the newborn and adult is a weak analogy. I didn?t miss the point. You are maintaining that the difference is a difference in degree. What do you base this on? Could there be something about humans that is immaterial not residing in the brain that makes us different? yes there certainly could be - I've entertained such possibilities in the past... and you keep alluding to this immaterial "something" but I've yet to see a satisfactory definition or description of it (I haven't been able to come up with one myself, maybe you could do better). I hope your entire argument isn't dependent on this nebulous immaterial thing. there's more to it isn't there? There is more to it than that but there doesn?t need to be. I made an error. Instead of starting a thread about this I jumped into the middle of a thread and posted two links to the middle of an argument. Right now I am thinking about what would be the best way to proceed. I could post the beginning portion of the argument in this thread or I could start a new thread or I could do something else. Conceptual abstraction means to "think" using concepts that do not rely on the senses. Universals are a good example of that. is it possible to have a concept that is completely independent of sensory perception? can you impress upon a non-perceiving being, the concept of triangularity? be careful with that one. There is nothing to be careful about. The answers are no and no. And both questions have nothing to do with the argument at hand. They are completely tangential. You: aren't concepts abstractions by definition? Me: This is where the confusion lies. is that a yes or no? another direct question goes unanswered... Should I post a RCA (reading comprehension alert) here? I said: ?No, neither of those phrases are nonsensical. And if you know what I am trying to say that proves it. I specifically chose those phrases because they lack specific connotations. I could have chosen alternate words that have a plethora of meanings and really confused the issue. When we speak of perception we are dealing with sensory input. When we use sensory input to ?think? we are abstracting, using the word as a transitive verb. Hence, perceptual abstraction means to think without using concepts. Which is precisely what other animals do, some of them quite well. Since I used the word ?abstraction? in the first case I was compelled to use it in the second case to avoid unnecessary confusion. Conceptual abstraction means to ?think? using concepts that do not rely on the senses. Universals are a good example of that. You may ?know? what a triangle looks like but you also have ?triangularity? as a concept in your mind.? The sentence, ? Since I used the word ?abstraction? in the first case I was compelled to use it in the second case to avoid unnecessary confusion.? meant, by inference, that I understood it to be a redundancy but used it to avoid confusion. I thought my meaning was clear but evidently you didn?t understand it. Yes, we can call conceptualizing ?abstracting? but wouldn?t that confuse things? We can also call both ways of cognition, perceiving and conceptualizing, ?thinking? and further confuse the argument. And this is also why you imagine that animals can conceptualize. reading comprehension alert! I said concepts are abstractions, not vice versa. btw, my argument doesn't depend on animals being able to conceptualize. Repeat: You: aren't concepts abstractions by definition? Me: This is where the confusion lies. And this is also why you imagine that animals can conceptualize. If they did they would be able to use prepositional speech because it contains the elements of conceptualization within it. You in an earlier statement: and besides, animals can conceptualize things, though to a lesser degree than humans. chimps can use tools and form concepts about family ties, friendships, past offenses etc. this is conceptualizing at a basic level. to say that we are fundamentally different just because we can conceptualize at a higher level is just stupid. Perceptual abstraction is not conceptualizing as in using concepts. It is conceptualizing of you include both types of cognition. In order to understand these points we need precise, not imprecision. Do you understand this? The brain may be a necessary condition for conceptualization but it is not a sufficient condition. it MAY be a necessary condition? if I remove your brain, you can't conceptualize. it's as simple as that. this has been adaquately demonstrated by lobotomies. a man with his frontal cortex removed acts very much like an animal- a non-conceptualizing, non-reasoning hairless ape (in fact, he is worse off than an ape). and of course, a man with a full brain and a man with half a brain differ only in degree. any differences in kind that emerge between the two (like the ability to use reason, conceptualize etc.) are derived from this difference in degree and are therefore superficial differences in kind. I used the word ?may? because it ?may? be possible to have no brain and still think. As in ?you are dead?. If you have some evidence to the contrary I would like to see it. Remember this is a philosophical argument and as an honest philosopher I do not state, with certitude, that which I do not know with certitude. Animals lack the immaterial portion of being that humans have. I cannot say with certitude where it comes from. Wouldn?t that be getting ahead of ourselves? I think the first thing to do would be to establish the existence of an entity before I hypothesize its origin. there's that immaterial thing again.. is it wise to base your view of the physical world on a this thing when you "cannot say with certitude where it comes from". and you talk about my presuppositions? I had assumed that you were attacking evolution because you have a cogent alternative. perhaps I was wrong. It is much wiser to base my world view on what I know than what I don?t know. And what I know is that man is radically distinct from other species because of his ability to conceptualize. Man?s origin are another issue. Let me turn this around on you for a moment and ask you a question. Currently, there are no theories about the origin of life that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. But that doesn?t make you uncomfortable about evolution as a grand theory, does it? Why? Because the other portions of evolution have enough evidence, according to interpretations of data, that you accept the parts that have evidence. It is the same in this argument. It is unnecessary to posit man?s origins if it can be shown that he is radically different in kind from other species. You assumed a couple of things. I am not attacking evolution. I am stating that there is a radical difference between man and other animals. It seems to me that this argument got under your skin (or however you want to say it. You certainly decided to engage me on this whatever your reasons were.) because you saw a few phrases that dealt with evolution and posited the idea that man is radically different from other species. The article even went so far as to suggest that man was outside the phylogenetic tree. Then, you were off and running. The article raised all kinds of flags! The author must be wrong! Yada yada yada. What I am asking you do is to put aside evolution and consider this argument at its face. The preceding statements are my perception drawn from your statements. I think the first thing to do would be to establish the existence of an entity before I hypothesize its origin. I acknowledge the existence of the immaterial. I do not believe this is what seperates man from beast. Thank you. A clear statement of your position and a premise to work with. My cat can also communicate with me on a very basic level. He is readily able to understand the signal "treat" means he is going to get something to eat. There isn?t any conceptualization going on in his brain. And neither is there in Koko?s. 1) your cat is not using language When I speak, which is using language, and my cat responds to that speech he is using language to communicate. He hears me and responds. The fact that he isn?t the one doing the speaking has absolutely nothing to do with it. He is making use of language. He is using the sounds he hears exactly the way the apes use ASL, as signals. There isn?t even a difference of degree except my cat only knows two signals and apes have mastered hundreds. My cat also has various meows that indicate various things. That may not be human speech but it is communicating. The meows are very much like the ASL that the apes use. There are signals. 2) apes can communicate better than cats, and humans better than apes - differences in degree. That is reductionistic and doesn?t address the difference between conceptualizing and perceiving. 3) it doesn't matter if it's not really conceptualization. the important thing is to see where this ability to conceptualize comes from. if it can be reduced to something that differs in degree, it is not a radical difference in kind. Correct. And it cannot be reduced to a superficial difference in kind. Of course it is relevant. It is the core of the argument. what argument? that humans can conceptualize and animals can't? that's the wrong argument. the real issue is where this ability comes from. if the source of this ability can be reduced to a difference in degree, the resulting manifest difference in kind is superficial. it's real simple: whatever unique abilities that are manifest in humans can't be taken unto themselves as proof of a radical difference in kind. they must be understood in terms of their underlying factors. It isn?t the wrong argument. It is a major premise of this discussion. You have caught on to the fact that the underlying factors are very important. I think you are basing everything on whether or not the phylogenetic tree exists. Let me ask you a direct question. How do we know that the size and complexity of the human brain is a sufficient condition for conceptualizing as is evidenced by propositional speech which is characterized by the use of categorematic and syncategorematic words? Maybe you think this discussion is all about evolution. It isn?t. And I am not interested in any portions of it that are. I don?t discuss evolution and I rarely, if ever, get caught up in threads about them. I had a recent discussion about it and that was enough. This isn?t because I don?t understand it. And it isn?t because I don?t think about it. I have studied it for many years. But in the 8 years I have been on the Internet I haven?t seen one discussion that was fruitful for anything other than flames and silliness. And that was from both Creationists and Evolutionists alike. I am interested in philosophical discussions. Sometimes these discussions touch on it and sometimes they don?t. When they do the portion which deals with evolution is the very last thing on my mind. If I could make a suggestion to help simplify this discussion I would ask you to refrain from the tangential issues and focus on the major premises. I hate having to answer what I perceive to be quibbling and picking nits. Besides, that takes up too much time.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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You see your underlying philosophical presuppositions as reasonable. But how much effort have you put into examining them?
quite a bit. did you assume I hadn't? That is, of course, unless you think that arguing for the difference in man and his discontinuity in nature is attacking evolution. if you know anything about evolution, you'd realize that that is precisely what it is. the two arguments are not compatible. this is why I asked you for what you believe in because you obviously don't believe in evolution, but you still haven't answered that. oh well. No, I didn?t answer the question because you haven?t given valid reasons for asking it. huh? I haven't given you a "valid reason" for expressing your own views? oh dear, I see this isn't getting anywhere. ok, here you go: I wan't to know your thoughts on human origins because I am curious. it's OK if you don't want to share. you can safely attack my beliefs without opening up your own insular worldview to closer scrutiny.
Do you want to paint me as a Creationist so that you can dismiss what I say with a hand wave? I don't want to paint you as anything, which is precisely why I ASKED for your specific views. you have not been forthcoming. I haven't painted you as anything, yet. I brought up Creationism because that's the main competing theory. if you have another please tell us. My reasons for adhering to this argument have little to nothing to do with the validity of the argument, do they? Please answer this. no. but I didn't ask you for your reasons for believing, I asked you what you believe. still waiting... and usually when one attacks an argument, he does so by presenting another alternative argument that makes more sense. so far all you've come up with is this "metaphysical immaterialism" that seperates man from beast. and you have not described this thing adaquately, nor given us any reasons to believe it. I know you're averse to "casting pearls before swine", but indulge us just this once. what exactly is "metaphysical immaterialism". we need precise terms here, do we not? And what is here is a radical difference in kind between man and other species. an assertion. how do you know the difference is radical and not superficial? I'll ask again, if our ability to conceptualize does not come from our biology (which differs in degree to that of animals), then where does it come from? Your analogy of the newborn and adult is a weak analogy. that was not an analogy. it was an example of A differing in degree from B, but only A being able to do certain things. an example of a manifest difference in kind being a result of a difference in degree. just one example of many. and I was only using it to defend the Nobel prize winner in genetics who was accused of contradiction. and really it raises an important point. by your reasoning, a newborn and an adult are radically different in kind because one can conceptualize and the other cannot. You are maintaining that the difference is a difference in degree. What do you base this on? I assume you're talking about the ability to fabricate tools. first you should read falcon's link above about the tool making bird. I've seen a documentary on it and it was quite fascinating. it is tool making to a lesser degree, I can't see how you could claim otherwise. and what do you think about Neanderthals burying their dead? to answer your question, I never said the ability itself is a difference in degree - you can either make tools or you can't. I said that this ability arises out of a difference in degree. I guess we could be talking about the ability to conceptualize or use reason or anything else that you believe seperates man from animal. the reason I believe that all this is a result of a difference in degree is because that's what the evidence supports. the fossil record shows a continous progression from simple single celled organsisms to more complex forms like vertabretes - reptiles - mammals - primates - great apes - humans. it's simple, if there is continuity, there can be no radical differences in kind. this is the physical aspect of it. with the "immaterial" aspect, things like language etc. you also see a continuous progression, though there are steps - new properties emerging when the underlying differences in degree reach a critical threshold. an ape can make use of language, while a snail cannot. a bird can use tools while a lizard cannot. a human can conceptualize while a cat cannot. these differences in kind arise out of the physical differences in degree between those animals. higher complexity gives rise to new, never before seen properties that seemingly come out of nowhere, and this is where a lot of people get confused - a multitude of simple things can give rise to extremely complex things. these are called emergent properties, which are based entirely on degree. if you understand fractals at all, you know what I'm talking about here. this is key: it's self evident that properties of a higher order would emerge with increased complexity. why are humans any different? this is simple extrapolation, and you cannot deny it unless you can point to a mechanism that prevents such a natural progression. Yes, we can call conceptualizing ?abstracting? but wouldn?t that confuse things? We can also call both ways of cognition, perceiving and conceptualizing, ?thinking? and further confuse the argument. all of that is tangential so I'll take your advice and not adress it. Perceptual abstraction is not conceptualizing as in using concepts. It is conceptualizing of you include both types of cognition. In order to understand these points we need precise, not imprecision. Do you understand this? as I already stated, my argument does not depend on animals being able to conceptualize. I already said it's impossible to know with certainty if they can, so I'm not hanging my hat on that. what I'm trying to understand is not that they conceptualize, but how they conceptualize. is this ability an emergent property of their biology or does it come from a "metaphysical" source? which has the stronger evidence? this is the issue. Do you understand this? I used the word ?may? because it ?may? be possible to have no brain and still think. As in "you are dead". If you have some evidence to the contrary I would like to see it. Remember this is a philosophical argument and as an honest philosopher I do not state, with certitude, that which I do not know with certitude. again, you didn't address the important issue I raised. is a lobotomized man different in degree or kind from a man with a full brain? if he is different in kind, is this the result of a biological difference in degree or something else? It is much wiser to base my world view on what I know than what I don?t know. And what I know is that man is radically distinct from other species because of his ability to conceptualize that's what you know because that's what you see, but you stopped there. you didn't ask why man can conceptualize and animals can't. as I said before: "whatever unique abilities that are manifest in humans can't be taken unto themselves as proof of a radical difference in kind. they must be understood in terms of their underlying factors." Currently, there are no theories about the origin of life that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. But that doesn?t make you uncomfortable about evolution as a grand theory, does it? as I said, I believe in evolution because it is the best theory that fits the available data. I'm open to changing my mind though, if I'm presented with a compelling alternate theory. ascribing our unique abilities to "metaphysical immaterialism" just won't cut it. I have higher standards than that. sorry. you accept the parts that have evidence. It is the same in this argument. It is unnecessary to posit man?s origins if it can be shown that he is radically different in kind from other species. right. we're radically different.. we just magically appeared out of nowhere... You assumed a couple of things. I am not attacking evolution. I am stating that there is a radical difference between man and other animals. as am I. clearly humans are radically different from animals. but to say that humans are radically different in kind from animals is not compatible with evolution, because evolution states that there is a continuous progression from animals to man. you can't have it both ways. It seems to me that this argument got under your skin (or however you want to say it. You certainly decided to engage me on this whatever your reasons were.) because you saw a few phrases that dealt with evolution and posited the idea that man is radically different from other species. The article even went so far as to suggest that man was outside the phylogenetic tree. I was merely pointing out some obvious errors in that essay you posted. and then it was YOU who engaged me in debate (post #2226982), not to mention your "you're so full of it" comment. When I speak, which is using language, and my cat responds to that speech he is using language to communicate. He hears me and responds. The fact that he isn?t the one doing the speaking has absolutely nothing to do with it. He is making use of language. um, you do realize that being able to take voice commands is not the same as using language? and a cat meowing is just emoting. he makes a certain sound when he's hungry and so forth. language uses symbols in place of emoting, like Koko does. Koko also uses grunts and such to communicate. that's not language, but when she uses her hands to create symbols, THAT is language. How do we know that the size and complexity of the human brain is a sufficient condition for conceptualizing as is evidenced by propositional speech which is characterized by the use of categorematic and syncategorematic words? simple extrapolation of the evidence. see above. I was going to ask where you think these abilities come from, to clear up your position on this, but I forgot, you have none (none that you want to tell me anyway) Maybe you think this discussion is all about evolution. It isn?t. And I am not interested in any portions of it that are. I don?t discuss evolution and I rarely, if ever, get caught up in threads about them. could this possibly be the result of bias on your part? just wondering... I am interested in philosophical discussions. Sometimes these discussions touch on it and sometimes they don?t. When they do the portion which deals with evolution is the very last thing on my mind. this discussion seems kind of one sided (in more ways than one) because you are continually saying that the currently accepted theory of evolution is wrong, but you refuse to take a position of your own, and you refuse to answer direct questions. your first sentence in this thread reads: "There are a lot of incorrect presuppositions in your post", your second sentence: "Animals and humans are radically different in kind". pretty bold if you ask me. if we humans are radically different in kind, it can't be due to our biology, because our biology only differs in degree from that of animals. so I assumed that you had another source in mind, which is I asked you about it. you mentioned some vague terms like "metaphysical immaterialism". I pressed you on it and you almost took exception, saying "No, I didn?t answer the question because you haven?t given valid reasons for asking it"... oh well. at least it was somewhat productive.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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something interesting supporting the panspermia theory:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994552 of course those silly scientists don't know anything, only the philosophers have the answers!
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Anonymous |
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I can't believe you not only read but posted the whole thing!
 That's a joke. Let me try to expedite this for brevity's sake. I didn't assume much of anything including how much time you spent examining your presuppositions. You seem to see the author's argument in terms of evolution because there is a section that relates to it. There is nothing wrong with that but such a focus on evolution to the exclusion of the other parts of the argument are detrimental to understanding it. I am not interested in attacking you or your beliefs. You have opinions and they may or may not be correct. It is the same with me. I always try to learn something new or a new way of looking at things so that I can better understand the world I live in. One of the reasons I like to discuss this with you is so that you can point out something I might have missed. You seem to imply that I am hiding what I think so that I won't be attacked. At least you phrased it that way with reference to yourself. I am not hiding much of anything really. What do I think is man's origin? I do not know. Perhaps it is usual for you to encounter an argument where one idea displaces another idea. Here we have something slightly different. We, the author and I, are saying that the complexity and size of the human brain are not a sufficient cause for conceptualizing. As I said, I handled this poorly by not starting out at the beginning of the argument. But if I had it might not have caught your attention because it mentions absolutely NOTHING about evolution. I'll post it in this thread when I get a chance. I am not casting my pearls before swine here because I am engaging you, nearly completely. I think the others have long ago given up on us, or maybe just me. And as I said elsewhere I am enjoying this tremendously or we wouldn't be having this conversation.And what is here is a radical difference in kind between man and other species. an assertion. how do you know the difference is radical and not superficial? I'll ask again, if our ability to conceptualize does not come from our biology (which differs in degree to that of animals), then where does it come from? Yes, it was an assertion. I will have to go over the reasons again. But not right now. I'll do that when I make the beginning part of the argument which you have yet to hear. Where does it come from? I don't know. that was not an analogy..../snip It was an analogy as far as I can see. I'll have to go over that part of the argument again for the rest of it. ...the fossil record..../snip You are relying on presuppositions based on other presuppositions etc etc etc. And you seem intent on seeing and discussing this from a "scientific" viewpoint. As long as you maintain that position you will be unable to see the philosophical reasons and ramifications that I and the author are talking about. as I already stated, my argument does not depend on animals being able to conceptualize. I already said it's impossible to know with certainty if they can, so I'm not hanging my hat on that. what I'm trying to understand is not that they conceptualize, but how they conceptualize. is this ability an emergent property of their biology or does it come from a "metaphysical" source? which has the stronger evidence? this is the issue. Do you understand this? I understand that and more. There is no point of talking about which has the stronger evidence if you haven't seen the beginning of the argument, and you haven't. You seem to have made up you mind that whatever the author says cannot be true if any portion runs contrary to any portion of evolution. That is about as closed minded as a person can get. (nothing personal meant here) All in all I thought your answer was a pretty good one. And, no, that doesn't mean I agree with it. I didn't answer the rest of your post because I just don't have that kind of time right now. Instead what I'd like to do is post the beginning portion of the argument in this thread and address those issues the same way I answered the first part of your post, kinda paragraph style. Cheers, MM
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Anonymous |
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First let's take a look at two extreme positions about the mind/body. Here is the first one.
Descartes thought that each person consisted of two parts, a body and a soul. The relationship they had to each other was like a rower and his rowboat. Is this correct or incorrect? Why? I thought I would break the argument into small pieces in order to help us understand and examine it closely. Your move.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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thank you for the honest direct answers. to tell the truth, I also don't know with absolute certainty where humans come from. evolution provides us with some answers without invoking any mysterious metaphysical forces, while taking into account all the available physical evidence. that's good enough for me.
It was an analogy as far as I can see. I'll have to go over that part of the argument again please do. especially the part where I say: "see my example about newborns and adults." I do not rely on analogies to make my points, as I think they are intellectual shortcuts where logical errors can easily creep in. You are relying on presuppositions based on other presuppositions etc etc etc. And you seem intent on seeing and discussing this from a "scientific" viewpoint. I'm sorry but the fossil record is not a "presupposition". it is physical evidence. a presupposition would be something like this... "Animals and humans are radically different in kind. There are no other animals that ponder anything because they lack the equipment to do so. They are incapable of conceptualizing". I'm sure you are familiar with the scientific method, which the theory of evolution adheres to - there are no presuppositions in science, except one... As long as you maintain that position you will be unable to see the philosophical reasons and ramifications that I and the author are talking about. why is it that you think that because I disagree with you, it's because I do not understand your position? we've been discussing this for a while now and I understand your position perfectly, and I think you understand mine. please do not attribute these honest intellectual differences to ignorance. you're better than that. You seem to have made up you mind that whatever the author says cannot be true if any portion runs contrary to any portion of evolution. That is about as closed minded as a person can get. well he does spend a large portion of the essay directly attacking evolution and those who believe it. he even goes as far as to accuse a Nobel prize winner of contradicting himself, when clearly, that was not the case. I took exception to that. I think a Nobel prize winner would know what he's talking about. and I wonder if the author keeps up with the latest science, or even understands the science behind evolution. as for being closed minded, as I said, I'm perfectly willing to change my mind if presented with a compelling argument. I think being closed minded is saying that anyone who believes in evolution is a "materialist". you've accused me of trying to pigeonhole you, but I've done no such thing. I simply asked if you were a creationist. it was you who labeled me a materialist because of my beliefs. it couldn't be farther from the truth. I just happen to believe that ALL creatures are endowed with the spirit, that man is not apart from nature, and that ultimately, we are all of the same essence. this isn't materialism. if anything, it's a spiritual, holistic, almost Buddhist outlook on things. and it is entirely compatible with science. -------------------------------------------------------------------- First let's take a look at two extreme positions about the mind/body. Here is the first one. Descartes thought that each person consisted of two parts, a body and a soul. The relationship they had to each other was like a rower and his rowboat. Is this correct or incorrect? Why? well, that certainly is an extreme position and a poor analogy. the body and soul are not discrete "parts" like a rower and rowboat. they are inseperable. and furthurmore, only one can exist without the other, as far as the evidence supports. that particular formulation is a convenient thought model. nothing more. I think I know where you're going with this, but you won't get anywhere with this line of thinking. that humans posses an immaterial aspect has no bearing on the issue of whether or not humans differ radically in kind from animals. as I said, I'm interested in the underlying processes, not in how they manifest themselves in humans. they may manifest themselves in incredible ways - in immaterial ways - in ways so radically different from the rest of nature, that you may be tempted to say that it must come from another source. the first thing to realize is that when we study the human mind, we are studying a gestalt - the aggragate end result of something, or numerous somethings. and any conclusions drawn from such examination is subject to analytical reduction (not reductionism!). I'll say this for the third time: whatever unique abilities that are manifest in humans can't be taken unto themselves as proof of a radical difference in kind. they must be understood in terms of their underlying factors. in any case, I'm interested to see where this goes..
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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some interesting reading:
http://www.panspermia.org/intro.htm The first point, which deals with the origin of life on Earth, is known as panspermia ? literally, "seeds everywhere." Its earliest recorded advocate was the Greek philosopher Anaxagoras, who influenced Socrates. However, Aristotle's theory of spontaneous generation came to be preferred by science for more than two thousand years. Then on April 9, 1864, French chemist Louis Pasteur announced his great experiment disproving spontaneous generation as it was then held to occur elsewhere on that site: People like to say, as if it were obvious, that life is hard to define. This is misleading. Life has properties that clearly distinguish it from everything else. Every living thing is cellular. In other words, it is either a single-celled creature or a creature composed of biological cells. Every cell is bounded by its own outer membrane and contains a full set of instructions necessary for its operation and reproduction. Furthermore, every cell uses the same operating system: "DNA makes RNA makes protein." DNA is a long complex molecule that contains the cell's instructions. It is transcribed into RNA, another long complex molecule similar to DNA; and then the RNA transcript is translated into protein. There are hundreds of billions of different proteins used by living things (3), but all of them are made from the same twenty amino acids, the "building blocks of life." living things differ radically in kind from non-living things, but all life is of the same essence. there are only variations in degree but the resulting emergent properties of such variations can often confuse people into thinking that there are radical differences in kind. they are basing their arguments on these manifest properties and not on their underlying factors which only vary in degree. theres lots of great info on that site and a fascinating new (or maybe not so new) theory which dovetails nicely with neo-Darwinism.
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 10 months, 19 days |
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Wow, a real philosophical debate.. if only I had some background in it, I'd join in and kick all of your asses.
Peace. --------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Anonymous |
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FG, you ought to join us. I think three of us discussing this would be extra cool.
We don't have many discussions like this in here unfortunately. Without iG and myself we probably wouldn't have this one. Come on! What have you got to lose? Start where I am asking:
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SkorpivoMusterion Livin in theTwilight Zone...  Registered: 01/30/03 Posts: 9,954 Loc: You can't spell |
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DNA: BIOS
The Body and Viscera: The Hardware and Case The Brain: The Operating System (WinXP, Linux, etc) The Soul: The Power (or electricity, so to speak)
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Anonymous |
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evolution
fossil I typed out an entire paragraph but the computer ate it. Basically I said that I am not here to discuss evolution. I am here to have a philosophical discussion. If you aren't interested in a philosophical discussion we don't have to have one and we can stop right now. I really despise discussing tangential issues even like this one. They bore me to tears. Besides the fact that I have never had a discussion about evolution that ended well. They just aren't worth having for me. well he does spend a large portion of the essay directly attacking evolution and those who believe it. It is statements like that one that really make me wonder if it is worth it for me to continue this. Your perception is a little biased. I reread the author's article specifically looking for the portions that directly mentioned evolution or should be considered an "attack". Here is what I found: The article contained 192 sentences and 95 paragraphs. In it the word 'evolution' or used 'evolution' as a part of a word consisted of exactly 4 times. Darwin was mentioned once. There were 15 sentences that "attacked evolution" directly, and 2 full paragraphs with the other sentences sprinkled here and there. That's a "large portion"? Not in my book, or anyone else's either for that matter. I think a Nobel prize winner would know what he's talking about. Really? "Experts" have had as many flawed ideas as anyone else. They aren't immune to illogical thinking. There is a logical fallacy specifically directed at "appeal to authority". It doesn't matter what "position" they hold. It only matters whether what they say is logical. I expect such blind following from a "believer", not from you. (no personal attack meant nor implied) I'm perfectly willing to change my mind if presented with a compelling argument. We will see if that is true for you and me. So far we haven't proceeded that far. I think being closed minded is saying that anyone who believes in evolution is a "materialist". Way off base there I am afraid. Your lack of familiarity with philosophy is showing. (no personal attack meant nor implied) there are no presuppositions in science, except one... Completely incorrect. Would you like me to list a few? Here are seven: 1. It is easy to obtain confirmations, or verifications, for nearly every theory -- if we look for confirmations. 2. Confirmations should count only if they are the result of risky predictions; that is to say, if, unenlightened by the theory in question, we should have expected an event which was incompatible with the theory -- an event which would have refuted the theory. 3. Every 'good' scientific theory is a prohibition: it forbids certain things to happen. The more a theory forbids, the better it is. [note 1] 4. A theory which is not refutable by any conceivable event is nonscientific. Irrefutability is not a virtue of a theory (as people often think) but a vice. 5. Every genuine test of a theory is an attempt to falsify it, or to refute it. Testability is falsifiability; but there are degrees of testabilty: some theories are more testable, more exposed to refutation, than others; they take, as it were, greater risks. 6. Confirming evidence should not count except when it is the result of a genuine test of the theory; and this means that it can be presented as a serious but unsuccessful attempt to falsify the theory. ... 7. Some genuinely testable theories, when found to be false, are still upheld by their admirers -- for example by introducing ad hoc some auxiliary assumption, or be re-interpreting the theory ad hoc in such a way that it escapes refutation. Such a procedure is always possible, but it rescues the theory from refutation only at the price of destroying, or at least lowering, its scientific status. (I later [after 1920 -NS] described such a rescuing operation as a `conventionalist twist' or a `conventionalist stratagem'.) [note 2] Taken from: http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swa I could have listed dozens. it was you who labeled me a materialist because of my beliefs. Nope. Your perception is a little off again I think. I never said you were a 'materialist'. I only said you seemed like one iirc. I think I know where you're going with this, but you won't get anywhere with this line of thinking. And I think I also know where you are going as well. But neither statement helps the discussion as far as I can see. And this goes for all the preceding statements I have made in this post so far. I am not interested in any 'rebuttal' to my preceding statements either. I only want to know if you want to continue this. Do you want to hear the second position? (The first one was Descartes')
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Anonymous |
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That is certainly a conclusion to an argument. Only a detailed philosophical examination would reveal if it is accurate. The discussion I am trying to have would by its nature address those points because they are important.
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fireworks_god Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 10 months, 19 days |
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Well, see, I just don't have any of the structured knowledge in this subject to be able to really make my points known, so all I have is my own thoughts on the mattter. And, since you asked, those would be: I don't know, I guess I would have to think about vegetables in a hospital.. machines are sustaining their life, physically they ARE alive, however, there is no thought, there is no consciousness... the boat is still there, still active, but there is no one there rowing... Myself, I would lean towards the belief of the mind being seperate from the body, but I couldn't really say either way.. Hhm... I just see that there is this spark, this point of light, this energy that is what gave us the ability to be conscious... I don't know, there is this unspeakable understanding that is just there, every single moment revolves around it... I mean, life, for god sakes. Hehe, see, no real structure in organized thought, doesn't do one any good in disucssions such as these... Actually, I have some Norwegian I should be learning, so I am off for now. Peace. --------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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falcon Registered: 04/01/02 Posts: 8,426 Last seen: 2 hours, 38 minutes |
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Quote:
-------------------------------- Descartes thought that each person consisted of two parts, a body and a soul. The relationship they had to each other was like a rower and his rowboat. Is this correct or incorrect? Why? -------------------------------- I think the answer has something to to do with going around in circles when you have an oar out of the water.
Descartes thought that the body could do some things in response to stimuli, by itself. He thought the body could communicate information with the soul through the pineal gland and the reverse was true, that the soul could communicate through the pineal gland with the body. he proposed a way in which the rowing gets done, wacky He also beleived that only humans had a pineal gland. Is this correct or incorrect? It is correct. Why, thats tough if you can answer that, you have answered why thinking is more than instinctual reponse to stimuli. And once you do that you leave open the possiblility that the soul exists independently of the body and yet connected to it.
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Anonymous |
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Hey, thanks for answering. That's a pretty good answer too.
The argument I am using says this: If the mind and the brain are completely separate we have a few difficulties to explain. If the brain is the rowboat where is the rower when the brain shuts down, as in asleep? And I think the second argument against it is devastating. We all know that brain injuries or defects affect our ability to think. If the mind isn't somewhat dependent on the brain how could this be? There are also reports of neurological surgery that tell of electrical stimulation producing conscious experiences. If Descartes were right that could not happen. Evidently he must be wrong. It seems like, as you said, Descartes had one oar in the water on this one. For those that are interested here's a cool link that explains his thinking about this click here.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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I typed out an entire paragraph but the computer ate it. Basically I said that I am not here to discuss evolution. I am here to have a philosophical discussion. If you aren't interested in a philosophical discussion we don't have to have one and we can stop right now.
so you've just decided that you don't want to discuss evolution at all? why is that? does it challenge your pet beliefs so much that you refuse to even consider it? and evolution is not a tangential issue here. it is central to the argument: if evolution is true, what you're saying cannot be. I think you know this, and you understand why this is.. could this be the reason you don't want to discuss evolution? The article contained 192 sentences and 95 paragraphs. In it the word 'evolution' or used 'evolution' as a part of a word consisted of exactly 4 times. Darwin was mentioned once. geez, there's no need to count words. if anyone is interested in reading it, they can do so for themselves and understand what is being said there, and how it relates to evolution and the origins of man. it doesn't matter how many times a certain word appears there, I undertand that his essay refutes the theory of evolution (do you deny this?) because it must, otherwise, all the other things he says can't be true.
"Experts" have had as many flawed ideas as anyone else. They aren't immune to illogical thinking. There is a logical fallacy specifically directed at "appeal to authority". It doesn't matter what "position" they hold. It only matters whether what they say is logical. I expect such blind following from a "believer", not from you. (no personal attack meant nor implied) lol. I see that your perception is a little off here. that was not an "appeal to authority". the logical fallacy you are referring to only applies when an appeal to authority comprises the argument. that's not the case here, I already covered the reasons why the expert was not contradicting himself. if I had said "because he's a Nobel prize winner" you might have a point but I gave other reasons, you did read them didn't you? Completely incorrect. Would you like me to list a few? Here are seven: you honestly don't think those are presuppositions in the scientific method do you? do you know what a presupposition is?
not this: "Every 'good' scientific theory is a prohibition: it forbids certain things to happen. The more a theory forbids, the better it is." yeah right. this is a presupposition in the scientific method? where does he come up with this crap? nor this: "Every genuine test of a theory is an attempt to falsify it, or to refute it". well DUH! but how is this a presupposition? sounds more like a list of reasons why this particular philosopher dislikes science. "Some genuinely testable theories, when found to be false, are still upheld by their admirers -- for example by introducing ad hoc some auxiliary assumption, or be re-interpreting the theory ad hoc in such a way that it escapes refutation." LOL. this isn't a pressuposition either but it's a nice summation of this discussion, especially this part "or be[sic] re-interpreting the theory ad hoc in such a way that it escapes refutation." evolution refutes the idea that man is radically different in kind from animals, so how to escape this? don't discuss evolution! I'm gonna re-frame this as a philosophical discussion, so I'm not interested in physical evidence! ah, open minded inquiry...
We will see if that is true for you and me. So far we haven't proceeded that far why must we take such a circuitous route? is a Q&A session really necessary? I do not want to answer any inane questions or take a primer in philosophy. please just lay out your position in its entirety in a clear, concise manner as I have done. and provide us with supporting evidence and walk us through the logical steps. you've been beating around the bush for a while now, alluding to some great truth just beyond our grasp, well out with it! I feel like we're on the verge here and you're holding out on us. we're all dying to hear. I am not interested in any 'rebuttal' to my preceding statements either. I only want to know if you want to continue this. as I already said, I'm interested to see where this goes, but I'm starting to wonder if you really want to continue, or if you're just searching for some face-saving way out of this, because I've been asking for your position for several posts now and you've only been squirreling around, making vague allusions, ducking direct questions and throwing in subtle insults here and there. I'd prefer it if you would just give us a straightforward answer. Do you want to hear the second position? (The first one was Descartes') no. I do not want to hear your argument piecemeal. please present it in it's entirety for all to see.
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Anonymous |
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no. I do not want to hear your argument piecemeal. please present it in it's entirety for all to see.
Ok, that works for me. I want to look at each piece of it one at a time and discuss it because it is more focused that way. You aren't interested in agreeing to anything that might cause you to change what you believe. But, that's cool with me.  Btw, I was only looking for an answer to my last statement so I didn't bother to read the rest of what you typed. Nice chatting with you.
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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so I see. we won't get to hear this "great truth" oh well. it seems my prediction was correct...
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Anonymous |
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And so was mine.
Enjoy your new rating. HA HA HA!
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infidelGOD illusion Registered: 04/18/02 Posts: 3,040 Loc: there |
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not that this discussion wasn't productive or anything, but you disappoint me. after all the buildup, I thought I'd get something. could it be that there is nothing there? what a tease...
and if you only want to share your knowledge in a certain way, that's fine. but truth should stand on it's own shouldn't it? what do you have to fear? it was nice chatting with you too and I'm glad to see you posting in this forum again. PS: your rating of me says more about you than it says about me
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