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OfflineDenman
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Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated...
    #21736625 - 05/29/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Hi gang, I have searched around here and various forums as to what these are, and how to deal with them with no real results.
The plants are P.Somni's, in various stages of development, and in all different areas of the property. They are the ONLY plant I've seen affected by them. I was thinking Aphids, but not sure, and no idea how to handle it. I had this prob last year, but it was late in the season and the plants were all but done, so I didn't try too hard. I tried a "safe" and natural way, (Dish soap, veggie oil n water mix) and it killed the plant. Turned the leaves black, buds shriveled.. Glad I only tried it on one plant...
Here are some pics, these are mostly EGGS, but occasionally I will see a black colored bug, about 3x the size of the egg...





The biggest problem I've noticed is where eggs are laid, the leaf will soon turn brownish and dry out and crumble. The final pic shows this. It doesn't look like it's being eaten, more like "poisoned" if u will. Water does not remove them :frown:

Does anyone have a possible ID on the pest, and an idea as to what to do?
Thx in advance,
Den


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21736747 - 05/29/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Try insecticidal soap. Miracle gro, for as much as I detest them, make one and its pretty awesome. Kills all types insects. The safe brand is cheaper and works just as well but I couldn't find it. Both organic. It's active ingredient is potassium salts of fatty acids whatever the hell that means but it works like a charm.


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OfflineDiddly
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21736757 - 05/29/15 12:51 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

My assumption from the picture is that they are aphids as well. I have the same issue on my cherry tree but I solved the problem by killing off the ants living in the backyard and removing any leaves with the aphids on them (and burning/killing them). I use to believe ladybugs ate them but I guess there were just too many. Chemical wise I haven't had much luck either.


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Diddly]
    #21736766 - 05/29/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Insecticidal soap is organic. And lady bugs will gorge themselves but thw aphids and the ants can be too much somwtimes.


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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
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Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade


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OfflineDenman
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: ferrel_human]
    #21736938 - 05/29/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting ladybugs came up, I have a huge "colony" I'll call it of ladybugs living n breeding in my Mullian plants.... Gotta be hundreds of them...

Thanks for the advice on the bug killer from mg. I'll have to get some ASAP this weekend. I researched natural killers/ repellents or home made ones rather, but I'm naturally concerned about human consumption- iF one were to consume any of the plant that is :wink:

I've been removing them by hand, rubbing it away with my fingers, but it's a total infestation. I can't possibly keep up lol, everytime I look there's more. I remove a dozen infested leaves only to find 3 dozen more the next day... Unreal. I've never had issues dealing with bugs before either, not in 20 years of gardening. (Veggies, to flowers to shrubs etc) Of course it's the main plant I'm concerned with this season that has the issue... Naturally :shrug:
Thx again, and all other suggestions are welcome too please. Just in case the local big box stores don't carry this particular one mentioned. Have a great weekend all.

Den


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21736949 - 05/29/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

This stuff works awrsome man. Kills in a minute or 2 and it last a couple of days. Or more. Re apply as needed. I've used it only once on my kratom that had a really bad infestation. That's not to say they won't come back but it takes time.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


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OfflineDiddly
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: ferrel_human]
    #21737094 - 05/29/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Another good thing to look at is outlying area around the plant once you've cleaned the plant itself. I used a tree sap glue (this is just a description of what it is cant remember real name atm) around the trunk(on top of tape, not directly on tree) to keep more crawlers from getting up


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21738467 - 05/29/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Do the bugs on the plant have legs? Are we certain what the pest is? I ask because it's foolish to spray a chemical without knowing what the pest is and a consensus hasn't been reached.


It's impossible to tell what they are with those pictures


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OfflineDenman
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: karode13]
    #21738595 - 05/29/15 08:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

karode13 said:
Do the bugs on the plant have legs? Are we certain what the pest is? I ask because it's foolish to spray a chemical without knowing what the pest is and a consensus hasn't been reached.


It's impossible to tell what they are with those pictures




I'm not 100% certain, which part of the problem. They're not laying eggs or affecting any other vegiatation in my yard best I can tell. I rarely even see many of the actual bugs, but constantly the eggs left behind. I DID catch one "in the act" today... Laying eggs on the leaf in a single row. It was black, maybe real dark brown, very small, about 1/4 inch at most.

Of all the research I've done, it keeps leading me back to Aphids, but I've seen plenty of green aphids in my lawn and they aren't bothersome at all... So idk what I'm dealing with, or why they only seem to like the poppies. I've got tomatoes, peppers, other wildflowers etc.
They only want the P. Somniferums.

I'll try to get a better pic tomorrow and if I can, get one of the actual critter. I realize some bugs can be beneficial, but last years experience showed me what they do to the leaves, and it's already happening to this years. So whatever they are they gotta go. Just wish I knew exactly what they were.


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21738615 - 05/29/15 09:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Are you sure the 'eggs' aren't scale insect?

Otherwise, google Black Aphids and see if they look like them.


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OfflineDenman
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: karode13]
    #21738702 - 05/29/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I suppose that's possible Karode. I did google crap out of it, and saved several pics, but again they're soo small I can't be sure with the naked eye. Not 100%. I held one on my finger tip this morning, but I lost it before I could try to take a pic. Idk if the camera on my phone will even pic up enough detail.
The reason I'm fairly certain they're eggs is simply cause they don't move. Not when I touch them, prod them, even when I start wiping n smashing them off. The larger bugs try to get away at least somewhat. Idk if they could just be too small to see them moving?
This pic is from google, and it's the closest I can find to what I say this morning:


According to google that's a black aphid. But again, I can't be 100% sure that's what I'm seeing. Gotta get a few adults collected in one piece n get pics. Thx for the replies all, the help is much appreciated.
Of course the other concern is using anything chemical or otherwise that u wouldn't want to ingest. I won't be eating the leaves, but the pods may be another story :wink: Tried the dish soap home remedy last year and it was a disaster for the plant. Idk if it was the soap or,the veggie oil that it didn't like, but anywhere that got even a drop turned black and burned right thru. Weirdest thing. And it pissed me off :/

Will get better pics of everything tomorrow, maybe better angles, etc. as well as adult insects.
Thanks again,
Den


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OfflineDenman
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21740425 - 05/30/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

karode13 said:
Are you sure the 'eggs' aren't scale insect?

Otherwise, google Black Aphids and see if they look like them.




I started a google search with the terms "Somniferum pests" and "poppy host insects". This lead me to aphids. Just thought I'd add that in.

Well I simply cannot get any clearer pics. :sad: the camera on my phone is terrible, and I don't have a digital one,so they just look like roundish dots. No detail at all...
After close inspection tho I am comfortable saying I'm 99% sure they're black aphids. I also noticed I'm now getting ants. This is interesting only because of the relationship between ants and aphids. So this also leads me to ID-ing them as such. I watched as ants crawled around and "inspected" the eggs/ babies, and I thought they were eating them! :grin:

So at first I thought "hey problem solved" but after reading that ants will come with aphids for the "honeydew" they produce, I realize that was wrong. Apparently ants will even "corral" them and keep them in the area, and even CARE for aphids! All for this "honeydew" they leave behind. I had no idea...

Now I am wondering if it is this "honeydew" thats causing the browning and ultimate crumbling of portions of the leaves? Idk... There's no signs at all of consumption of the plants. None. Ive noticed Other plants are being eaten by something, but that's a different area of the yard, at least a few hundred feet away, so again I'm puzzled. What's being eaten is simply overgrown weeds etc i haven't tended to, so I'm not concerned with that.

Summary- I've been growing poppies a long time, and I've never seen this until last year, very late in the year. So Idk what to make of it, but for the moment I'm going to let it be for a few days. If I see signs of major damage starting, I'll use the spray suggested by Ferrel. They seem to be focusing on the lower and older leaves, new growth seems to be left alone best I can tell. So I'm hoping it won't be a major problem.

Thanks again for all the help. I really appreciate it. :smile:
Den


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All posts are for Entertainment purposes only... I have no actual experience. I've never even been laid. :crazy2:  Isn't the Internet great?!


Edited by Denman (05/30/15 10:07 AM)


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21742562 - 05/30/15 08:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

The honeydew isn't causing the leaves to wither, it's the aphids themselves. The aphids feed by sticking a proboscis into the plant and feeding off the sap in the phloem vessels. If enough of them are on a plant they literally suck the life out of it. Less severe cases result in deformed growth and a less vigorous plant. Phloem is high in sugars, the aphids aren't good at digesting sugars and they secrete it in their frass(poo). The ants are attracted to the sweetness of the honeydew.


Your dish soap spray likely caused damage because the ratios were too strong or you sprayed it on the plants in full sun or when the plants were stressed. Always spray in early morning or late afternoon, when the sun is off the plants. Droplets on the leaf get magnified by the sun and this can cause scorching or the sun, plus the other ingredients caused a phytotoxic reaction.


Aphids are quite easy to control, you just need to spend a couple of weeks getting on top of them.


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OfflineDenman
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: karode13]
    #21792286 - 06/11/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Great info on the aphids Karode, thanks. Definitely good to know, and it explains alot. My gut reaction was fertilizer burn, which fits exactly with the deformed growth you mentioned. Since I haven't fertilized at all, I knew that wasn't it but man it certainly mimicked it well.

But I have a truly SAD update nonetheless... Well the 2 containers of plants I spraye are all but dead. I figure they've got a few days left at most before they are gone completely. :confused: Sucks, but what can you do.

I bought some "Nature's Care" Insecticidal Soap Spray, it's made by Miracle Grow/ Scott's. I have 2 pics below of a before n after. I only sprayed 2 containers, to be sure it was safe, turns out it wasn't I guess. I followed the directions to the letter, did it in the evening right before the sun went down completely so there was no direct light on them at all, and made sure they were well watered that morning so no stress on the plant from that.

Both containers are devastated. So am I actually :sad: even tho they weren't gonna be the biggest or the best, they were ready to put up shoots, n that's enough for me and my little "experiment" this year. One container was way overcrowded but I didn't care, that was more of an experiment to see how they would fare.
Well here are 2 pics. 1st one is right before spraying, 2nd is 2 days later. There was a fairly quick  reaction tho, about an hour later i noticed the leaves turned brown wherever the spray hit. Most leaves were wet completely, so they just withered up, looked like an old salad- as if u left a bowl of lettuce out for a day and it just shrivels and rots. The other had 6 plants in it, as u can now clearly see in the "After" pic.
the plants in question are the top right and lower right. Top had 6 plants, lower had an unknown number, I just let em all grow for the heck of it.
Right before spraying:


2 days later: (Containers were moved in hopes of stopping infection in other plants, but are shown in similar position. Right side had 6, left is crowded one- it's completely decimated)


Here's a close up of a few leaves. You can see the "rotting lettuce" look:


And lastly the container with 6 plants. This is the top right in first pic. What a difference huh?


I do wanna thank everyone for their help. It's been much appreciated and a real learning experience anyway. Idk what happened the last 2 years, but I've never had major bug issues before, not in almost 20 years of gardening on this same property. Wether it be veggies of all kinds or flowers, etc, never had an insect issue like this.

Ahh well, it def appears poppies are extremely sensitive plants. I have others in the ground that are ok so far, so I'm not gonna cry over it lol. I'll just chalk these up as a learning experience. I have 7 other containers, 5 are "under attack" by the same damn bugs, so I guess I'll be searching for away to stop it, or just let them go and see what happens. :shrug:

Thanks again for all the suggestions and info tho, I do appreciate it :smile: Any other ideas to try would be great too, at this point I don't think they've got much to lose, so I'm willing to try any number of suggestions lol.

Thanks again all, and sorry for the lengthy post,
Den


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21793659 - 06/11/15 04:10 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Damn man! Sorry to hear this :sad: those are some painful pictures indeed...

I wonder what about the spray killed them :confused:

I spray essential oil mixtures on most of my plants as a precaution, sometimes with neem oil and have never had any wilting issues or anything.

Even spraying during the day.

That stuff must have been pretty potent.

I also wonder what could have caused the bugs, did you have some other plants that are gone now that might have been distracting the bugs?


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21794966 - 06/11/15 09:00 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

That's a fairly bad reaction. Weird really, considering it's just insecticidal soap......

Sorry for your losses. I'd look into other non-toxic/low-toxic ways of controlling Aphids and test them out. They can not appear in gardens for years and then one season you have plagues of them.


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OfflineDenman
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: karode13]
    #21796779 - 06/12/15 10:21 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I appreciate that Karode, thanks, your info has been helpful also, very good stuff. :thumbup:

Thankfully these were more of "experiments" than anything else. Had the containers around n figured why not. I honestly think the one had close to 50 in it :crazy2: lol just to see what would happen... Others are in different soil qualities etc. My actual "garden" is of course the main priority, and is in the ground as u would expect. I won't comment on those simply so I don't jinx anything lol.

So I'm thinking out loud here, but if someone wants to humor me go for it.... I wonder if using liquid Miracle Grow fertilizer would have any impact on these insects in particular? My curiosity is peaked simply because in ONE planter I've been using it to gauge results against non- fertilized or other methods of feeding, etc, yet this one and only container shows no sign of them. It's on the same cart with the others, but no insect activity... :shrug:

4 out of 5 on the cart are infested, (2 are toast as we've seen), yet the one and only planter being fed MG is not being touched....
Couldn't find anything relevant in an extensive google search and other forums, I'm sure most would think me crazy for even thinking it. But, maybe there is something in the MG, some kind of chemical they don't like, or is even toxic when ingested?

Just thinking out loud here, but it does make me curious as hell...  :takingnotes: 
I think tomorrow morning I will give a shot of mg to another container. If they disappear, well then I have my answer... Of course there's a risk of over fertilizing if I used it in the garden, the soil is well amended so it won't help there, but seems I have an experiment to do anyway...


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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21799695 - 06/12/15 09:30 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So I'm thinking out loud here, but if someone wants to humor me go for it.... I wonder if using liquid Miracle Grow fertilizer would have any impact on these insects in particular? My curiosity is peaked simply because in ONE planter I've been using it to gauge results against non- fertilized or other methods of feeding, etc, yet this one and only container shows no sign of them. It's on the same cart with the others, but no insect activity... :shrug:

4 out of 5 on the cart are infested, (2 are toast as we've seen), yet the one and only planter being fed MG is not being touched....
Couldn't find anything relevant in an extensive google search and other forums, I'm sure most would think me crazy for even thinking it. But, maybe there is something in the MG, some kind of chemical they don't like, or is even toxic when ingested?





Very doubtful. I know some people have a severe hatred for Miracle gro that blinds their common sense but their fertilisers contain nothing sinister, just fertiliser. Fertiliser itself will not deter pests, but a healthy, well grown plant will be less susceptible to bug attacks and infestation. I think this is more the reason why it's not being attacked.


Aphids are very easy to control outdoors in my experience. They're a common garden pest that I usually deal with by spraying Horticultural oils about 3 times a week. Once the peak season has past they tend to not be a problem. Some crops can be more susceptible than others, maybe thay just love poppies this year............


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OfflineDenman
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: karode13]
    #21809659 - 06/15/15 08:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

I assumed as much, but you know how it is when the gears won't stop spinning lol... I don't get the disdain for MG either. I use it on my veggies every year if they need a boost. When using it on these guys I prefer the time release if I'm gonna do it at all, simply because the liquid is so short acting. Constant quick bursts of nitrogen followed by the same rate of depletion... It's caused some early blooming for sure. If I use the liquid it's a very weak mixture, just enough to perk them up without throwing the nutrient balance in the soilmtomfar outta whack.

Could you reco an oil mixture in particular? I'd really appreciate any suggestions from thise who have used it one this particular plant. Musiclover420 mentioned neem oil, something I will look into, maybe one or both of you can provide a mix ratio or a product to buy?

I appreciate the time you've all spent on this thread, and hate to ask for more of it... But if u have anything to reco from PE I'd really appreciate it.

I'm honestly at a loss here after the reaction my plants had to the soap product. The contents were simple enough, 99% water, 1% Potassium Salts of Fatty Acids. Apparently these plants don't like fat  :facepalm3:  lol

Thanks for all your time and help everyone, it really is appreciated. Hope you're all having a good growing season for whatever your growing...

Den


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Offlinekizatzhaddarak
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Re: Bug infestation, any help/ ideas appreciated... [Re: Denman]
    #21809917 - 06/15/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Nicotinia - Tobacco tea in a spray bottle. (take cheap cigar. and break it in half simmer for a few min in boiling water.. let steep, like tea.. strain. and depending on plant 1 drop of (dawn or "fairy" dish soap) only 1 drop of soap.

Pepper-mace tea.. in a spray bottle.
same for peppermace. . hand full of HOT chili arbol type chilis, 3 garlics sliced into 3rds..and 1/4 tsp of Mace. simmer, steep, strain.. put in bottle and Blamo capsicum oil garlic mace spray.
granted, this recipe doesn't keep long.. only a couple days then rinse out spray bottle and make a new batch.

those 2.. are my first line defense against evil-insect pests bent on eating my garden. If those 2 don't work..then I go to the nursery and buy a chem pesticide.

Maybe that might help. .. I dunno. .I really really do not like to use chems if I do not have to, in my garden.


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