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 Adustus Multiple Personalities      Registered: 11/14/13 Posts: 521 Loc: USA 
Last seen: 2 months, 13 days |
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Ive been digging for days. After encountering the topic of transhumanism with a friend we cannot determine if lucifer (being correlated with venus and bearing light) is identifiable with Satan.
In my opinion it all boils down to one thing. We wish to philosophize on who may be truly telling the lie to humanity. If Lucifer bears light. And is the answer to us all achieving what would otherwise take billions of years (see mass effect 3 extended cut ending here. The synthesis of all synthetic and organic life. That would mean the great majority of the bible is to deceive us into rejecting the ultimate evolution and always obeying Gods law(or men behind it all) and never reaching our height. On the other hand if he is Satan then it would be the evil one himself trying to lead us into thinking we can evolve ourselves into gods and therefor do not need god ourselves. A rather strange topic. And at this point Im open to hear others voice on said topic.
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MarkostheGnostic Elder   Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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Satan, means adversary and belongs to older writings than Lucifer. Satan is a henchman for God in the Book of Job, for example (definitely worth reading, and Jung wrote a significant paper on Job). Lucifer, which is Phosphorus in Greek, does mean light-bearer. He is, among other more mythological qualities, the psychological opposite to Jesus' humility, namely, pride. Lucifer aspired to take God's place, mythologically, and these impulse is perhaps best understood as archetypes that constitute a Coincidentia Oppositorum as Jung would have it, in our psyche. Later demonologists created infernal hierarchies, much of what is fanciful, or spun off demons (Lucifuge Rofacale) in medieval grammars, but it's best to go to the origins of these names/beings. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MirinGains Stranger Registered: 02/18/15 Posts: 28 Last seen: 11 years, 4 months |
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Satan is Sanat Kumara, pretty much the original deity, Lord Shiva, Enki, Ea, but was demonized. He is the serpent the Mayans worshipped, and Lucifer not sure but same deity freemasons worshipped I think.
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ShareDiamond Messenger  Registered: 10/14/14 Posts: 23 Last seen: 10 years, 9 months |
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I am glad to see people asking these sort of questions.
Since this question pertains to religion and the bible, let us hope emotions do not get too stirred up. I would make one correction to your hypothesis: that 'ultimate evolution' as you call it in your first instance, or spiritual evolution, or evolution of consciousness as I would call it, is inseparable from obedience to God's Laws. I do not refer to a blind or obsequious submission to God. How about the term: humble pride? You asked this question, so here is something for you to ponder: Note: I do not claim to be authoritative. You are at liberty to question and discern for yourself. . . . 1. "Do you accept the interpretation of Lucifer as the Fallen Angel of evil?" (March 1990) "No, I do not. I think this is a complete misunderstanding of Lucifer by Christian teaching. The name ‘Lucifer’ means, literally, ‘light’. The word comes from the Latin roots: lux, lucis — light and fer, ferre — to bring. It means, therefore, ‘light-bringing’ and is the name of the planet Venus as the morning star. "Far from being evil, it is pure light. In the esoteric teaching, Lucifer is the name for the great angelic Entity Who embodies the human kingdom on the soul plane. As souls, we are each an individualized part of this great Oversoul. Difficult as it is for us to grasp, there is really no such thing as a separate soul. It does not exist. "The Christian teaching holds that Lucifer — the chief rebel angel, Satan — was thrown out of heaven for getting too big-headed and arguing with God. This is simplistic and shows a complete misunderstanding of the reality. It is also, of course, symbolic. It is symbolic of a very significant point in our human evolution which took place eighteen-and-a-half million years ago. "At that time, early animal-man had reached a point when the energy of Mind could be brought to bear on his incipient mind. He had not yet a mental body. The energy of Mind, brought from the planet Venus, was radiated to animal-man. This process stimulated the mind of these near-men to a point where it was possible for the human souls, waiting on the soul plane, to come into incarnation for the first time. Early animal-man was so undeveloped that the energy of mind, and at least the nucleus of a mental body, had to be present before this could take place. For the first time, the human souls were individualized. As the soul is perfect, the soul plane is a kind of paradise. "The myth of Adam and Eve symbolizes this descent from paradise into incarnation. Because the soul can manifest only imperfectly through the lower vehicles — mental, astral and physical — it is, in a sense, descending into imperfection or “evil” as it is called in the Bible. It is not evil in any good/bad sense but is imperfect relative to the soul level. For the Masters there is only imperfection and perfection. There is no such thing as “sin”. Sin is a relative imperfection. But the Christian groups have focused everything on sin, good and bad. "The descent by the soul into physical matter led to an imperfect expression of that soul. The journey of evolution, of course, proceeds until the physical vehicles are sufficiently refined to allow the perfect manifestation of the soul in incarnation. That is the return process. The descent of the soul into matter (the rebellion in heaven) is involution, the return trip is evolution." . . . 2. "The Bible says Satan disguises himself as an “angel of light”, preaching love, truth, brotherhood, etc. How in God’s name can we trust anyone? I am confused! (January/February 1991) "Behind this question, I assume, is the thought: If Maitreya preaches love, truth, brotherhood, etc, how can I know He is not Satan in disguise? "I believe that here is the basic misunderstanding by orthodox Christians about the nature and meaning of Satan. Satan is always seen as a man, the embodiment of evil, who tempts humanity and seeks to gain their soul — the Faust legend — presenting himself as loving and kind, concerned with truth and justice. "Satan is not a man but a symbol. He symbolizes our own separative, selfish, lower nature which, in the main, we hide by rationalizing it and seeing our motives (through the fog of illusion called glamour) as love, truth, brotherhood, etc, while they are nothing of the kind. One of the most important functions of Maitreya, in this world cycle, is to help free humanity from the illusions of glamour (which is illusion on the astral planes) and thus free them from living in thrall to “Satan”. . . . 3. "How do we know ‘your’ Christ is who you say he is and how do we know he is not someone who is trying to obtain some form of powerful position in the world with the purpose of world domination? (June 1987) "This is a question often put to me by fundamentalist Christians. A tree is known by its fruit, and the Christ must be known by His words, His deeds, and, above all, His energy. If one man could achieve world domination (which, in today’s world, I very much doubt) then it could only be someone of the stature of the Christ. The fundamentalists, of course, are afraid that Maitreya might be the ‘Antichrist’, with which fallacy I have dealt many times, here and elsewhere. On the Day of Declaration, I submit, everyone — even the fundamentalists — will know, through the overshadowing of the minds of all humanity — a Pentecostal experience for all — that Maitreya is the Christ." . . . 4. "Is this (Maitreya’s) way the only way to so-called salvation? Does Maitreya have exclusive rights to the salvation business?" (April 1990) "I think you will find that, unlike the established fundamentalists of today, Maitreya will not claim any exclusive rights to the path to salvation. He comes as a Teacher. We must save ourselves through response to the teachings, not by following Him as ‘the only way’." . . . 5. "I would like to know if the Bible is still valuable now that Maitreya is in the world?" (July/August 1990) "Most certainly, yes. The Christian Bible is the embodiment of profound teaching and prophecy, symbolically and allegorically expressed. It is not meant to be taken literally, and, if it is, it leads to the present confusion of fundamentalist and orthodox Christians in relation to the Reappearance of the Christ. It is not, as Christians fondly believe, the only book of Divine revelation, but for long years to come it will serve many millions of Christians — when its true meaning and purpose is revealed by the physical presence of the Christ (Maitreya) and of the Master Jesus, Who is in charge of the Christian Churches. Freed of the man-made dogmas and doctrines, the Christian Bible will find a new lease of life in the demonstration of the age-old story of initiation through the Gospel of the life of Jesus, and as a constant reminder of the interaction of God and man in man’s long journey to divinity." . . . 6. "What esoteric or exoteric light can you shine on the Adam/Eve story of Genesis regarding the Snake who could speak and walk upright?" (December 1986) "The story of Adam and Eve is, of course, purely symbolic and allegorical. It refers to the coming into incarnation of the human egos some eighteen-and-a-half million years ago. The undifferentiated souls took separate sexes on the physical plane and “ate of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil”, that is, experienced physical-plane life for the first time. This was — for the soul — a ‘fall’ from paradise (the soul state) into carnal life, and therefore limitation for the soul. The descent of the soul, of course, was intentional and according to divine plan. The snake is a symbol for sex." . . . 7. "There is a great deal of talk about the Antichrist. Can you say something about this?" (26/4/77) "There is such a thing as the Antichrist, but there is a great misapprehension about what the Antichrist is. Fundamentally, the Antichrist is the First or Will aspect of God, in its destructive form. It is that which destroys in order to prepare the way for the building aspect, which is the Christ aspect. It is that which breaks down and destroys the old to prepare the new forms for the incoming energy, the building energy, so that the Christ aspect can manifest. That is what is happening now. This Antichrist force has worked out through the war from 1914-1945. (From the Hierarchical point of view that was one war.) That war was precipitated on to the physical plane from the astral planes where it had been going on, since Atlantean times, between the Forces of Light and the forces of darkness; the evolutionary and the involutionary forces; the Hierarchy and the materialistic forces of this planet. The war between them in Atlantis caused the Hierarchy (Who before then had worked openly, outwardly in the world as the priest-kings and god-like beings Who gave men the Atlantean civilization) to become occult, esoteric, working only from the higher mental planes. By the defeat of the Axis powers in the war of 1939-1945, the Forces of Evil of the planet (which is the evil of all mankind, not simply of the Axis powers) were defeated. Certain leaders in Nazi Germany, Japan, and to a much lesser extent in Italy, focused in themselves the energy which we call the Antichrist; but it is an energy, it is not a being, not an individual. It is preparing the way. It is the destructive force of God Himself, which prepares the way for the Christ. "Where the involutionary force [descent into matter] overflows on to the evolutionary arc (on which we are), it appears to us as evil. It has its role, in upholding the matter aspect of the planet, but too gross a materiality prevents mankind from advancing along the evolutionary path. "The Forces of Evil on the planet have been defeated. They are not destroyed, but they are defeated. There is a stanza in the Great Invocation which says: “And may it seal the door where evil dwells.” This refers to the sealing energies (which we transmitted earlier in the meeting). Their job is to lock away, to seal those forces to their own domain, to uphold the matter aspect, by lifting humanity above the level where they can be influenced, so that we can spiritualize matter, which is what we are really about." . . . 8. "Are you saying evil will cease to exist?" (27/1/76) "No, I am not saying that evil will cease to exist, not yet anyway. The forces of evil on the planet have been defeated. The defeat of the Axis powers in the great war from 1939 to 1945 represented the defeat on the physical plane of the forces of evil. They are not totally destroyed, but they are defeated. Since 1966 the energetic strength of the forces of Light has been greater than that of the forces of darkness. The forces of darkness have always had an advantage over the Hierarchy, who represent the forces of Light, because they work on the physical plane. Whereas the Hierarchy, since Atlantean times, when They became occult, work on the consciousness planes, on the higher mental planes. So Their hands have been somewhat tied in relation to man’s life on the physical plane. But since 1966 a balance has been achieved and the forces of Light are now stronger in the world. "The Masters can now come out into the world and work with humanity on the physical plane, and add Their power to the existing power of the disciples and men of goodwill. "The forces of evil can now be sealed off to their own domain, the upholding of the matter aspect of the planet. The true Armageddon, the final battle between these two forces, will be fought out on mental levels in the middle of the Capricornian Age." . . . 9. "Are the forces of evil just a part of God?" (5/3/76) "Of course, yes, the forces of evil are part of God. They are not separate from God. Everything is God. There is nothing else in fact but God. The forces of evil on this planet receive their energy from the cosmic astral plane. They are fundamentally the forces of materiality, the forces of matter. They are part of the involutionary process of Deity, involving Itself in matter and producing the pairs of opposites – Spirit on the one hand, and Matter on the other." . . . 10. "Why are the forces of darkness trying to stop the initiation of mankind? Are you inferring that the forces of darkness are man’s animal ego?" (5/3/76) "No. The forces of darkness, the forces of evil – what we call evil, the involutionary force of the planet – has its place, in upholding the matter aspect of the planet. But an overflow of that, a gross materiality, is inimical to the spiritual progress of the race. Mankind is on the evolutionary arc. It is moving out of matter, and too great an overflow of this evil on to the evolutionary arc could destroy this planet. In fact, without the help of certain great energies, great Entities, Who have been called into the world by the Lord of Shamballa Himself, this planet would have perished before now, due to the action of the forces of evil whose purpose is to destroy. They work against the evolutionary plan because it seals their fate." "So you are giving them a separate animation?" "Indeed. They are very highly conscious entities. They are as conscious and as active in their line as the Masters of Wisdom are in Theirs." "And yet not separate from God?" "And yet not separate from God. Of course not. But God involved in matter. The involutionary force, God in Its involutionary aspect." . . . 11. "What is the place of Satan, and the Final Judgement?" (26/4/77) "Well, I can only speak from my own perspective. Satan and the Judgement rests with every man; each one is his own Satan, each his own judge. Every action, every thought, sets in motion causes, the effects of which make your life for good or ill. This is the great Law of Cause and Effect, which the Christ will demonstrate once again. He said before: “As you sow, so shall you reap.” Once again He will demonstrate that this law is totally bound up with the whole of our existence." "Are you referring to reincarnation perhaps?" "Yes. This is the Law of Rebirth, which we call reincarnation. It is through the Law of Cause and Effect that we come again and again into incarnation as souls, demonstrating on the physical plane through the personality. The fact that we create on this plane certain effects, set in motion certain causes, ties us to this plane and draws us repeatedly till these are resolved. In this way the whole of our evolutionary life is acted out, until gradually, through the experience of this evolutionary path, we perfect ourselves, revealing more and more of our divine nature. "Each time we die we see our high self, our true Self. We come face to face with our soul; we see our life as it has been; we see the purposes which the soul had for coming into incarnation. We always come into incarnation with three major purposes, which it is the aim of the soul that we manifest. We see these, and we can measure how much of any of these purposes we have in fact fulfilled. This is really the true judgement. This happens life after life until we perfect ourselves, and need no longer incarnate on this planet. Then we are Masters. "The Final Judgment will come at the end of the Earth’s seventh and last cycle or round, when all but a remnant of humanity will have Achieved, become perfected Masters." . . . sources: Benjamin Creme, Maitreya's Mission Volume Two Benjamin Creme, The Awakening of Humanity Benjamin Creme, The Reappearance of the Christ and the Masters of Wisdom -------------------- NOTE: My own views and opinions may not correspond to Share Int'l. "You are your own guru."  Edited by ShareDiamond (02/19/15 12:39 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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Well, the archetype of an adversary to God, is universal. It has arisen in cultures that were completely isolated from each other by time and geography. Satan [Hebrew] or Shaitan [Arabic] are derivative from earlier Mesopotamian-Sumerian forms. It takes a dualistic form in Zoroastrianism where there are two equal but opposite forces from all eternity, or in Judaism, Christianity and Islam, there are mythic rebellions of the celestial beings whom God created. Shiva was from the Indus Valley (hence HIndus), and to my understanding was never a demonic being, but rather a third of a trinity and the Destroyer (of ignorance, which is an expression of evil in 'shame cultures' like India. The West has a 'guilt culture'). Lucifer in Freemasonry is taken in a Gnostic mythic sense as the 'Light Bearer' who helps our Primal Parents, not deceives them. In those Gnostic myths it is the Demiurge ('Craftsman') Creator who has trapped a divinity higher than his own in human beings, and "the Shining One," or serpent is a manifestation of Wisdom, Not evil, who endeavors to free us with "The Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil." So it is not evil that Freemasons hold in high regard, but wisdom. It was Albert Pike who revealed that Lucifer was Lord of this realm in his book Morals and Dogma. Quetzalcoatl, the "feathered serpent" of the Mesoamericans, was also a god of knowledge and a creator (Mayans and Aztecs), and was not a symbol of evil, but a sky god. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MirinGains Stranger Registered: 02/18/15 Posts: 28 Last seen: 11 years, 4 months |
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Yep, didn't mean to say Lucifer was evil, he wasn't portrayed as evil but as a bringer of enlightenment like Shiva and yoga.
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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There IS evil, and as the Bible says, it is often disguised as something beautiful. An angel of light would be a perfect example when it is a false light. Robert Oppenheimer quoted the Bhagavad Gita at the first atomic bomb test, "I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds." In that case, the 'beauty' of light was anything but beautiful. Whether Lucifer is a symbol of profound deception, or a 'bringer of light,' is clearly a matter of interpretation of the different myths that employ the character.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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zzripz Stranger  Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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Really this is all mythology, which emanates from the imagination. So to try and 'historically' literalize, and establish eg 'YES! Lucifer is not Satan' or vice verse case closed is absurd, because those who use these patriarchal images or archetypes will use them bleeding into each other. All we have to know is that BOTH Lucifer and Satan represent for the powers that shouldn't be now the SAME meaning--the rebel against 'the God' And note--BOTH male. Ie the patriarchy is so paranoid about women that it even hides its real enemy is feminine and in its cast of mythical characters does not give women any leading god-like roles. HINT HINT
From there then we can dig deeper and get to the roots, because when you get to the roots you clear away a load of confusion. BOTH Lucifer, AND Satan AND Jesus AND Siva AND Dionysos, and so on are referring to consciousness-expanding vegetation, psychedelic mushrooms! Once you dig that, then you ask questions about interpretation. You find that initiates who created these beliefs systems and would have taken these substances have created dualistic beliefs. This is not too hard to fathom, because at these forums, even though most of the members claim to have had psychedelic experience some will even refuse to accept a spiritual dimension to life. The worst forum here for that, and who will censor people who hold these views is in the so-called 'philosophy, sociology and psycholgogy' forum. They there are like some cult that abide by rules that are bias and arbitrary favouring those with a materialistic outlook on life. I am just using this as an example. So likewise in Paganism, that term is 99.999 percent used by Christians and Satanists etc alike to refer to solar-phallic version of paganism which I am saying is patriarchal. Here is example of its worldview, quoted by a poster above:
Now THAT is what I mean by a solar-phallic paganism. This is not at all like an earth-based lunar paganism which understands nature, and the sensual body to be sacred, and the psychedelic fruits--gifts from the Great Mother--to inspire celebration of this Mystery which is life, death and regeneration. THIS is what all the patriarchal branches of belief suppress, and fear---for whatever reason. But it is VERY important to be aware of for that reason. The patriarchy in all its guises is about DIVIDE and CONTROL so that you become slaves serving whatever priesthood they have organized So, yes, if you find the ROOTS which very much include psychedelics, and then you find that even there there is mind control to divide and control you, but when you see it and through it, then you can begin to embrace your real being in relationship with all being.
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Larrythescaryrex teardrop on the fire  Registered: 07/19/00 Posts: 11,004 Loc: further down the Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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you are mixing metaphors and languages more or less. the word "satan" in the jewish language is more of an adjective than a proper noun, as it means advesary. And the entity Satan is simply that, an archangel that entered into an advesarial relationship with the god of abraham. Angels are sometimes compared to stars in a metaphorical sense. Satan is referred to as the angel of the morning (morning star). Venus is called the morning star as well not due to a correlation with statan but rather because of its visibility at that time of day. coincidence. Regardless lets skip ahead to christian times and now we have the problem of writting down a jewish word written in hebrew into latin letters and the fact that the people who originally did this may or may not have gone through greek or another language already, and the issue that an "an" ending doesn't grammatically work for a noun in latin there are a number of issues. Thus I would assume that some one decided to transliterate the word altogther. The issue is that we don't really ever get a hebrew NAME for satan, just the adjective. Well another way to describe "satan" would be to look at the divine disenchantment story and see that "satan's" key role was to drive Eve to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Knowledge is compared to light (that is to say enlightenment) or "Lux" in latin, which when you add the ending for the singular second person who completes the action, becomes Lucifer. He/she/it that brings light (knowledge). So in latin "satan" went from being called the advisery to the one that brought knowledge. Both descriptions and not an actual name at all. Light in this sense is not related to stars or starlight at all. So yes Satan and Lucifer are both descriptions of the same entity who's actual name is not ever outright said. You seem to be relating this knowledge though to intellectual developement and casting the god of abraham in a negative light, (that it wanted mankind to be stupid). Not the case as you will find that it was not the tree of knowledge but rather the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It did not intellectually enhance adam and eve but rather stripped them of their innocence in regards to being able to determine right from wrong. I think this take is born out by the fact that satanists more or less worship themselves (take an advesarial position visavis a god that would give them rules) and luciferians worship knowledge (or enlightenment). What I have obsevered though is that over time luciferians begin to view humans as the only receptical of knowledge (therefore better than everything else in existance), then their self as the receptical of the highest knowledge (as they are better than the sheep around them in their view) thereby basically transforming into a satanist in all but name. -------------------- RIP Acidic_Sloth Sunset_Mission said: "larry the scary rex verily scary when thoroughly vexed invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex mercifully massacring memories masterfully relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs" April 24th 2011
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Larrythescaryrex teardrop on the fire Registered: 07/19/00 Posts: 11,004 Loc: further down the Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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and I might add also that lucifer clearly wasn't doing anyone any favors with the eat the fruit thing, because there was that other tree that bestowed eternal life...
-------------------- RIP Acidic_Sloth Sunset_Mission said: "larry the scary rex verily scary when thoroughly vexed invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex mercifully massacring memories masterfully relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs" April 24th 2011
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Ellis Dee Archangel  Registered: 06/29/01 Posts: 13,104 Loc: Fire in the sky Last seen: 7 years, 5 months |
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If you read The Lost Book of Enki by Zacheria Stichin it explains the root of all those old myths from learning the Sumerian stories that the Hebrew myths are based on. Also Gadreel is the Hebrew name of the (satan) serpent that tempted Eve in the garden btw, from the book of Enoch, one of the 5 main Satans. But looking back into Sumerian myth its clear that the story of the fall is only a partial truth of a much bigger picture. -------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Larrythescaryrex teardrop on the fire Registered: 07/19/00 Posts: 11,004 Loc: further down the Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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I find it best to stay within a certain cultural context range or else we would end up saying lucifer is not satan but satan is loki by evidence of the jade emperor.
-------------------- RIP Acidic_Sloth Sunset_Mission said: "larry the scary rex verily scary when thoroughly vexed invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex mercifully massacring memories masterfully relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs" April 24th 2011
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Larrythescaryrex teardrop on the fire Registered: 07/19/00 Posts: 11,004 Loc: further down the Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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for example my answer excluded islamic and mormon writings.
-------------------- RIP Acidic_Sloth Sunset_Mission said: "larry the scary rex verily scary when thoroughly vexed invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex mercifully massacring memories masterfully relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs" April 24th 2011
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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Yes, I've made the point for the mythological nature of religious writings ad nauseum, but what you refer to as "imagination" does little more than marginalize images as some random mental phenomena. Most people use the word imagination as they would dreams - 'it was just your imagination,' 'it was Only a dream.' Few people delve more deeply into the profound nature of these mental events. Some profound thinkers, as in Buddhism, dismiss all manner of mental imagery outright in favor of formless conditions of mind. MUCH can be said about imagination, and like dreams, they are authored by the unconscious. Further, the unconscious operates by its own rules, which means that there is order and even meaning in the material. But just like another language, the meanings need to be teased out by analysis of the images. Unlike Freud's fixed meanings, dream images from a Jungian perspective can be multidimensional. An old friend of mine saw a Freudian analyst and overtime he went through a doorway in his dream, it was interpreted as his mother's vagina!
 I then hooked him up with a Jungian, and that expanded the interpretation of his dreams immensely.It is true that mythic images, as in the gods and goddesses frequently "bleed" into one another. The unconscious is very plastic, as Salvador Dali's art makes abundantly clear. So does any large mythic system like ancient Egyptian religion, which stretched over millennia, where the 'eye of Osiris' is sometimes the 'eye of Horus,' and where Amun and Ra merged into Amun-Ra, just as common examples. But even with centuries of plasticity and change, the character Set or Seth, for example, remained the evil, murderous god who slays his brother Osiris. But just as Judas HAD to betray Jesus for Jesus to be killed and then resurrected, in the Set-Osiris drama, both players are necessary to the plot. Satan hails from the older pre-Christian Hebrew writings, as in The Book of Job, where Satan is God's henchman. Satan is ordered to afflict Job terribly, even kill some people around him, but not to kill Job. Satan complies. In Christianity, the Hebrew Satan is appropriated by the Christian authors, but many of the themes are lifted verbatim from the Egyptian Pyramid Texts and Coffin Texts (according to D.M. Murdock in Christ in Egypt), but I digress. These characters and themes are to random inventions. They are, as you say, "archetypes," which populate the Collective Unconscious, in conceptual parallel with the Platonic Forms that populate Nous (the Demiurge). The feminine has very clearly been vilified, beginning with Eve in Genesis, but even worse with the midrashic stories of Lilith - Adam's first wife who refused to lie beneath him in subservience, and left Adam to fornicate with demons in the desert. Orthodox Jews still use amulets and prayers over a newborn child, since Lilith is believed to such the life out of babies. But you are right about the patriarchy making the major players masculine in nature. As to lunar versus solar Pagan, plus your accurate appraisal of the 'other' forum's materialistic bias, I would suggest that a sensuality-based paganism is very materialistic in nature. Despite the 5th element in the pentagram - spirit - it is never articulated in Wicca, for example, beyond an élan vital or animating (animistic) life-force. I remember Stewart Ferrar saying in his book on Alex and Maxine Sanders, What Witches Do, that Wicca was a "lowbrow path." There, transcendence of nature is never considered. Cycles of nature are celebrated, including transmigration of the 'soul,' but never transformation into a less material existence. In a later book by Maxine Sanders, Firechild perhaps, she wrote that for all of his Magician persona, Alex was terrified of death. It seems to me that some familiarity with transcendental states is a crucial purpose of any religion inasmuch as it tempers our death-anxiety, which in turn allows us to live more freely with less fear. Clearly, the Eternal Feminine was worshipped, and I remember fantasizing myself about the beautiful young Witch Queen, Maxine, but while I was interested in the psychic mechanics of magick, psychedelics opened me to the domain of Spirit, through non-theistic AND theistic experiences, both of which required a long time to integrate, but both of which entailed a transcendental "Summum Bonum." For me, like Plotinus, I had to learn not to be ashamed of being 'in the body,' so sensuous religion was never a possibility for me. Even now, I endeavor to take a more Kabbalistic position wherein creation is good, and move away from disdain for the world which characterizes so much of Gnostic thought. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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zzripz Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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I think you may have misunderstood me about Imagination. In no way to I underestimate it. In fact in last few weeks in another forum, I have tried to spark exploration of it asking 'what IS Imagination?', because I am very interested in it. I am very aware that there are satanic mindsets in control of this world who very well know how to mind control people en mass via various means, advertising, entertainment, politics, and the occult--like 9/11 false flag.
I do not want to derail this thread (though I personally see all these subjects interconnected and think a lot of mindcontrol is pressure to separate subjects!), but I think that what the control-freaks do is dissociate people from Imagination--via so-called 'education' and the rest, and then having done so they can have better access to manipulating us. Slouched in front of TV, Cinema, they pump thousands of images and text and words into countless psyches vibrating alpha waves before in the religious times prior to TV, and moving images, the hijack of the imagination was same formula of divide and control, 'good' and 'evil', and of course the banning (and even the obliteration of its memory) of sacred vegetation which inspires the creative imagination. I see Imagination as a mysterious bridge between us and nature and all reality. it is not eg 'I am imagining'--as in 'my brain is producing imagination' but rather an awakening into Imagination which is intelligence and VERY real and shared by all life Edited by zzripz (02/22/15 03:22 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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Well perhaps, but there is Jungian Active Imagination, which I have practiced in the past, and it is a dialogue that one begins with the image gleaned from one of your dreams. At first you think you're just playing both sides, but then something kicks in. I learned the technique from Robert Johnson almost 30 years ago from this: http://www.amazon.com/Inner-Work
As to Orwellian subliminal satanic mind-control, you're on your own. I harbor no such delusions. Yes, there are subliminals on TV and film, usually (in my experience from the 50s) to "Buy Coca-Cola," or sexual 'embeds' so that the viewer will unconsciously identify whatever he's watching (like a child's Disney® film) with sex. It's a Pavlovian classical conditioning. I am 61 years old and I must be a remarkable man to have remained fairly unscathed, and unprogrammed by whatever insidious agendas you currently subscribe to. I should be an unparalleled consumer, or up to my eyeballs in debt, or cowering in my closet, or stockpiling weapons and food, or voting for warmongering Republicans. But none of these apply. I can use my own faculties for questioning 911, our involvement in wars we have no business in instigating, and these things are being caused by the plutocratic corporate CEOs who are the industrial part of the Military-Industrial Complex. Between the Godless corporate money-lovers and the military power-lovers, there is more than enough human evil accounted for without secret media mind-control. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Larrythescaryrex teardrop on the fire Registered: 07/19/00 Posts: 11,004 Loc: further down the Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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I get you point but I am bothered by you including the enite poltical party of republicians. I feel people should be judged as individuals and nots simply as a party member
-------------------- RIP Acidic_Sloth Sunset_Mission said: "larry the scary rex verily scary when thoroughly vexed invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex mercifully massacring memories masterfully relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs" April 24th 2011
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zzripz Stranger Registered: 12/23/08 Posts: 8,292 Loc: Manchester, UK Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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It is not 'delusions'.
Though I am not surprised you think this way, because you call yourself a Gnostic, and that belief systems is continuous with the New Age and thus the agenda of these satanic cabals. OK, you admit that there is subliminal mind control in TV and film. But then suddenly say that you yourself are not affected by this, and use that to go back on what you agreed with:
I also am not that affected by ads, though I very much have been so growing up, as were my parents. From this I have learned that somehow I woke up to it in a deep way. I don't suddenly go blind to the fact that many people are not and most definitely are consumers, and the state of the world is a huge evidence for this. Have you not heard of Edward Bernays, and how his subliminal mind control got millions of women smoking, and people eating bacon in the morning, etc etc? So we are confused by your logic there.
You are truly not making any sense to me. Am I on my own? lol
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MarkostheGnostic Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months |
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#1 Don't take my pseudonymous name too seriously. Yes, I've held attitudes that could be considered Gnostic in the sense of holding the primacy of experience over so-called revealed scriptures, or an 'infallible word of God,' but I do not subscribe to any particular Gnostic myth. Also, I am neither ascetically or libertine in my life, while the Gnostics were extremists in this regard, not adhering to a 'middle way.'There is nothing New Age about Gnostic religion, other than the name which has been adopted by pseudo-intellectual writers of fluff that is supposed to be spiritual in nature. I first learned about Valentinian and Marcionite Gnosticism in a conservative Christian seminary. I learned about Sethian, Ophite, Egyptian, and other schools on my own over the decades since having left seminary in 1978. Gnostic religion, incidentally, predates Christianity but influenced the formulators of Christianity in the 2nd century CE.
#2 While I understand that subliminals DO influence a lot of people (but for the purposes of banal advertising), they were eliminated decades ago for fear that political messages would in fact control the multitudes. When we were very young, we were empty-headed enough to see the "Drink Coca-Cola" subliminal during our Saturday matinees. Kids would exclaim "Hey did you see that?!" I think the subliminals that do exist are Pavlovian unconditioned responses to sexual clues, which the consumer subconsciously associates with whatever product the sexual message is embedded in. This, theoreticaIly, is supposed to increase the likelihood of purchasing the product. I have a collection of old magazine ads, some of which my middle school students brought me. Condoms looking like the stamen of a flower, see-through ads in which a sexual image appears when one looks through it at a light, the distorted word sex on objects, in animations, etc. These are sneaky devices, but hardly sinister, and to fear them as sinister mind-control is delusional. #3 I had to look up Edward Bernays, but there I'd have to agree with you about sinister, except that cigarettes were not thought to be the horrible thing it is. Freud said he distrusted people who did NOT smoke tobacco, and died a terrible death, half his face gangrene from cancer, following some 36 operations, due to his cigar habit. His personal physician, on Freud's request, put him out of his misery with multiple injections of morphine. Tobacco is an insidious addiction and poison. I don't think it was automatically conspiratorial when diamonds (instead of pearls), became THE stone for engagement, but jump to the future where supply and demand has given rise to 'blood diamonds,' child-soldiers,' genocide, etc., and you have an unforeseen consequence. Good and evil rise and fall in our dualistic condition, and what's apparently good (like smoking in public) filthies up the planet with trillions of cigarette butts every year, and millions of deaths-by-disease. #4 It is you who are not making sense to me. There ARE conspiracies, no doubt, but you keep mentioning "satanic cabals," which you have neither elaborated upon or referenced with something other than an expression of your own making. I understand the term cabal, and it has connection to Cabala or Kabbalah. I understand satanic to be an adjective, synonymous with demonic (suggesting evil), but I don't know in what sense you are using it. Actual Satanists? I mean, except for localized sick sadistic sex cults, the Church of Satan and Temple of Set, Satanism historically was a political statement against the oppression of church authority. I read Michelet's book 40 years ago. http://www.amazon.com/Satanism-W
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Ellis Dee Archangel Registered: 06/29/01 Posts: 13,104 Loc: Fire in the sky Last seen: 7 years, 5 months |
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The Book of Enoch is the same cultural context as the rest of the Bible. The Sumerian myths are the foundation for understanding the cultural context that all these semitic myths come from. -------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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