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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: WAN]
    #20730931 -

WAN said:
And go ahead, "swat me like a fly...repeatedly".  Go on.  I am waiting.  Also, I can't "throw my dick around", because I am a woman.


With 5 Posts I see you don't know Enlil.  He is a shyster--a lawyer--so if you want to have an argument with him you have to be anal about choice of words, meaning, and say and respond exactly to what he says. You even have to have the modifiers in the right place and the precise words that make it clear and unambiguous what you are saying.

If you don't do that he will drive you nuts.  Fucking lawyers. But he isn't as bad as my last lawyer who fucked me royal and got me sent up for a year.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: starfire_xes]
    #20730950 -

starfire_xes said:
he isn't as bad as my last lawyer who fucked me royal and got me sent up for a year.


I take this as unequivocal praise.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20730992 -

zappaisgod said:
PsyDragon said:
zappaisgod said:
Organizations are made up of what, exactly?  Please tell us.


People whose applicable rights are already protected. Any more "protection" makes them more equal then folks who aren't part of magical-extra-political-rights-entities-aka-corporations.


They have applicable and Constitutionally protected rights to act in concert and to pool their resources to petition Congress and to publish their opinions.  Have you ever heard of a newspaper?  What do you think it is if not a group of people collectively expressing their opinion?


With Fox TV 'News' and recently other infotainment sources around acting outside the scope of actual news journalism, we shouldn't be surprised to see 'collective expressed opinions' profered as a defition of journalism, but ... it isn't, it won't ever be. Also, news publishers tend to operate by definition as full-time sources of general, political, cultural, etc news, for consumption of patron citizen-subscribers rather than PAC-style focused manipulation and propaganda that's generally bent toward transforming voters (or public figures!) into tools of specific nefarious hidden or public agenda during or in preparation for campaign season issues or elections.

I guess what I'm saying is that journalism doing its job is not an example of why money-related corruption in elections and widespread issues-manipulation and misinformation mass media is "okay" or ever tolerable. It might be an argument for why some infotainment and PAC figures should be held accountable for the damage they've done and continue to do to this democracy under the sleeping eye of regulators.

Edited by PsyDragon (10/20/14 10:46 PM)

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20731025 -

But you would certainly agree that PACs engage in political speech, right?  And I assume you understand why political speech is, and must be, the most highly protected speech in a republic.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20731056 -

What is the consequence for a PAC if they lie and manipulate and manage to steer the public in a direction divorced from reason?

What is the consequence for the nation, of same?

What makes what PACs attempt even remotely permissible today, given that it was generally considered out-of-the-question in the past? What makes corruption acceptable, now? (Right, a series of divided SCOTUS rulings starting with Buckey v Valeo (1976). I always thought it was mean-spirited, how they killed most Americans' democratic ideals on the bicentennial.)

Edited by PsyDragon (10/20/14 10:58 PM)

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20731099 -

Enlil said:
As has already been pointed out, it isn't about donations to campaigns...those are already capped.  It's about independent expenditures made on behalf of a candidate or legislation.  It's certainly possible to allow that to be anonymous, but how do you stop people from revealing how much they spent without restricting speech?  Certainly identifying oneself is speech.


But people already DON'T have complete freedom of speech in the USA.  Two things off the top of my head (though keep in mind I am by no means any sort of legal expert) are anti-defamation/anti-libel laws and anti-perjury laws.

If we can make laws to make certain forms of speech illegal (and in fact already did), then surely we can make laws to prohibit people from identifying themselves as the source of financial contribution to political campaigns, which as you pointed out, is a form of speech.

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: WAN] * 1
    #20731187 -

Think about it this way:

If we prohibit people from saying how much they spent for political speech, only the ones seeking to corrupt politicians will break this law.  They will let the politician know in a private conversation with a wink and a nudge.  The public, on the other hand, will be even more in the dark and unable to spot any impropriety because we won't even know who got a particular candidate elected.

If we force people to identify when they spend money for political speech (which is currently the law...generally), then everyone knows that BP gave candidate X a lot of money, so when BP gets some tax break, people know to call shenanigans.

Which of the above two options sounds like a better situation?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20731200 -

PsyDragon said:
What is the consequence for a PAC if they lie and manipulate and manage to steer the public in a direction divorced from reason?

What is the consequence for the nation, of same?



Who determines what is and isn't a lie?

What are the consequences for a nation that has a government agency determine what is and isn't truthful speech?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20731206 -

Enlil said:
starfire_xes said:
he isn't as bad as my last lawyer who fucked me royal and got me sent up for a year.


I take this as unequivocal praise.


:lolsy:


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20731217 -

PsyDragon said:
What is the consequence for a PAC if they lie and manipulate and manage to steer the public in a direction divorced from reason?




Let the buyer beware.  If 'the people' weren't fucking Morons they would research and investigate the claims made by the PAC rather than just being 'steered' and running with the herd.

That's why 'they' are sometimes referred to as Sheeple.  They were meant to be sheared.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: PsyDragon]
    #20734528 -

PsyDragon said:
What is the consequence for a PAC if they lie and manipulate and manage to steer the public in a direction divorced from reason?


That they will be exposed as knaves and fools with more speech
Quote:
What is the consequence for the nation, of same?


Much less than the lies and distortions we already get from politicians and the mainstream press who seem to have gulled a significant amount of the populace into thinking their word is truth.
Quote:
What makes what PACs attempt even remotely permissible today, given that it was generally considered out-of-the-question in the past?


It took a long time for McCain Feingold to become ripe for judicial review.  Are you calling for the reinstatement of slavery?
Quote:
What makes corruption acceptable, now?


there is nothing corrupt about people getting together to speak their minds and to broadcast them to the widest possible audience.  Nor is there anything corrupt about them voicing their opinions to support the candidate that they see as representing their interests.  Would you shut down the NY Times editorial page and forbid THEM from endorsing candidates?  Do you have any idea how much monetary value their endorsement has?
Quote:
(Right, a series of divided SCOTUS rulings starting with Buckey v Valeo (1976). I always thought it was mean-spirited, how they killed most Americans' democratic ideals on the bicentennial.)


Buckley didn't go anywhere near far enough in upholding Democratic ideals.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: starfire_xes]
    #20734544 -

starfire_xes said:
If you don't do that he will drive you nuts.  Fucking lawyers. But he isn't as bad as my last lawyer who fucked me royal and got me sent up for a year.


More people should be as rigorous in their speech as lawyers.  Sloppy speech is evidence  of sloppy thinking


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #20735130 -

I cant help but notice how when you ask Enlil a question he asks you 3 or 4 more questions veering off of the topic at hand making him appear to know what he is talking about, he might be, but i notice he doesn't answer the question, making a conversation with him ever on going and never reaching a resolve. Like everything to do with politics people turn mole hills into mountains making things harder than they really are.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Anahata]
    #20737193 -

Anahata said:
I cant help but notice how when you ask Enlil a question he asks you 3 or 4 more questions veering off of the topic at hand making him appear to know what he is talking about, he might be, but i notice he doesn't answer the question, making a conversation with him ever on going and never reaching a resolve. Like everything to do with politics people turn mole hills into mountains making things harder than they really are.


I reach conclusions in my conversations with him frequently :shrug:


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Anahata]
    #20737359 -

Anahata said:
Like everything to do with politics people turn mole hills into mountains making things harder than they really are.


This is where your problem lies.  I ask questions and "veer off", in your opinion, because I try to point out that things are not nearly as simple as they seem.  This thread is a perfect example of that.  Maybe it's true that 79% of Americans want campaign finance reform in the abstract...but they don't know what that entails.  Once you get down to the details, where the devil lies, you have to consider the real consequences of campaign finance reform and what you're willing to give up.

It's easy to say "stop allowing pacs to spend money".  It's a lot harder to define an actual test by which we determine what is and isn't a pac and what is and isn't spending money on political speech.  As has been argued many times, Michael Moore movies are political speech, and he spends a lot of money making those movies.  Would that be banned?

The world is a very simple place when you see it as black and white.  As a person becomes more educated, and perhaps more mature, he/she starts to realize that very rarely is anything that clear.  The bulk of issues lie in the shades of gray and those issues interact with one another creating even more complex shading. 

I suspect that your opinion of my process is the product of a fundamental lack of understanding of the concepts discussed above, so I'm not holding out hope that this post will suddenly give you any clarity.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20737915 -

Enlil said:
Once you get down to the details, where the devil lies, you have to consider the real consequences of campaign finance reform and what you're willing to give up.


What exactly are people "giving up" by limiting corporate ability for speech?

Enlil said:
It's easy to say "stop allowing pacs to spend money".  It's a lot harder to define an actual test by which we determine what is and isn't a pac and what is and isn't spending money on political speech.  As has been argued many times, Michael Moore movies are political speech, and he spends a lot of money making those movies.  Would that be banned?


Already answered in the thread beginning here.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #20738001 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What exactly are people "giving up" by limiting corporate ability for speech?


The option of pooling money in an efficient manner, protected by fiduciary duties, for the purpose of expressing political speech.
Quote:
Already answered in the thread beginning here.


Maybe answered to your satisfaction, but not answered well enough to define anything resembling an objectively applicable test that doesn't give obscene amounts of discretion and power to someone over the speech of others.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20738175 -

I sincerely believe that most of these dingbats are never going to accept the fact that corporations are owned by people.  It's like they think they are owned by evil dolphins trying to usurp our planetary primacy.


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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Enlil]
    #20738390 -

Enlil said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What exactly are people "giving up" by limiting corporate ability for speech?


The option of pooling money in an efficient manner, protected by fiduciary duties, for the purpose of expressing political speech.


No, that was also discussed in the thread I just linked to.

Enlil said:
Maybe answered to your satisfaction, but not answered well enough to define anything resembling an objectively applicable test that doesn't give obscene amounts of discretion and power to someone over the speech of others.


Are you expecting me to draft the legislation for your review?  I laid out the principles, which doesn't 'obscenely' limit anyone's speech (unless you believe one person should have the power to completely dominate the media).


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: 79% of Americans want Campaign Finance Reform, Senate Republicans say Fuck You [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #20738427 -

I didn't say it obscenely limited speech.  It gives an obscene amount of power to someone to limit speech.  Someone has to be the arbiter of what is and isn't political speech, and that person or agency would have the ability to silence dissent and allow assent.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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