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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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problems with pH
    #20603807 -

Howdy. We have eight small citrus trees ~5 feet tall. Lately, a few of them have been showing problems in their leaves.
I assume it is related to a nutrient or pH issue.

Got a soil analysis done for the first time this season.
My pH is acidic (already knew this), but the Ca and Mg are also high.
I have put down small amounts of lime to bump up the pH but do not want to over do it with the Ca/Mg.

Could this be a nutrient problem with pH lockout or some kind of nutrient def?





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Re: problems with pH [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #20604000 -

How acidic is the soil?

Almost looks like iron deficiency. If this is the case iron chelate will help correct it until the soil pH gets back to a level where the iron present in the soil can be taken up by the plant. Adding mulch and organic matter around the drip zone of the trees will help with this.


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My Ethnobotanical Growing TeksWhere to Start Flow Chart, QnA, and helpful links

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Re: problems with pH [Re: karode13]
    #20604057 -

pH was around 5.5 at time of testing a few months back.
I have put down a 50lb bag of lime around the whole yard twice this summer.

Never messed with iron anywhere as it was not tested.
P, K, Ca, Mg, Cu, Zn were all high.
S was the only value that was low.

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Re: problems with pH [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #20604596 -

Actually, it can't be iron deficient at that pH. Iron gets locked out in alkaline soil, not acid. :weirdeyes:

It's a pH problem that will correct itself once the pH is at that sweet spot(6.0 to 7.5). Right now my opinion is the Nitrogen is locked out due to the soil pH being lower than 6. When this happens it's locked out and you end up with Yellow vein chlorosis which is the opposite of Interveinal chlorosis.


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My Ethnobotanical Growing TeksWhere to Start Flow Chart, QnA, and helpful links

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Re: problems with pH [Re: karode13]
    #20605033 -

Any recommendation to bring up pH without the use of lime?
Ca and Mg are already high, don't want to make it even higher unnecessarily.

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Re: problems with pH [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #20609244 -

If you're trying to increase ph, what's wrong with more ca and mg?

http://gardenrant.com/?guest_post=please-stop-liming-your-soil-based-on-the-ph
"To simplify what pH is, it’s basically a measurement comparing how much hydrogen we have in our soil versus a handful of other nutrients — mainly calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium and aluminum."

It looks like Potassium might be your best bet then, I've also heard that mulch will balance out the ph of soil (bringing low or high soils to the 7 range - I think the worms have some action on the ph when they digest the mulch?)

Edited by invitro (09/24/14 01:42 AM)

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Re: problems with pH [Re: invitro]
    #20610174 -

Because my Ca and Mg levels are already really high.
The amounts of lime I would have to put down to bring up the pH enough would likely lead to a huge excess of Ca and Mg and possibly toxicity.

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Re: problems with pH [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #20631027 -

Any more suggestions for raising pH?

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Re: problems with pH [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #20631051 -

I remember now about the worms, the soil passes through them and it doesn't matter if the soil is acidic or basic, it comes out ph7.  So top dress with something the worms will like to eat so they will hang out there, like lawn clippings, leaves, kitchen scraps etc.

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Re: problems with pH [Re: invitro]
    #20633178 -

Cool good tip dude.

By the same logic, would worm castings work?

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Re: problems with pH [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #20633212 -

Not really, for one thing they are expensive! I mean if you added a ton (literally) of worm castings it would have an effect but that's not economical right?  Worms like soil with calcium, seems like your all set for a worm party!

Edited by invitro (09/29/14 12:31 AM)

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Re: problems with pH [Re: invitro]
    #20633802 -

Your best bet to buffer the pH wihtout adding extra lime would be to add organic matter to the soil as a layer of mulch, work/fork some into the topsoil as well . invitro has the right idea about the worms etc. Sorry I took my time to reply, been busy.


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My Ethnobotanical Growing TeksWhere to Start Flow Chart, QnA, and helpful links

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Re: problems with pH [Re: karode13]
    #20633846 -

What was the TCEC on your soil report?  It sounds counter-intuitive but you should try gypsum.  The sulfur in gypsum will strip out the excess cations in your soil while also providing calcium to replace them, and you're low in sulfur and high in the major cations.

Typically using dolomite lime instead of agricultural lime can lead to these kinds of imbalances.  The solution is to use agricultural lime and gypsum for your calcium needs, which are much greater than magnesium.  You won't end up with too much ca/mg/etc if you use gypsum.

But that's because it contains sulfur which helps strip away the old cations... thus theoretically lowering your pH as hydrogen takes the place of the old cations.  Which is why I'm curious what your TCEC was?  Maybe you need organic matter to raise the TCEC in order to balance out (with the help of gypsum)?

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Re: problems with pH [Re: tdmm]
    #20636905 -

All good, K. Thanks for the reply.

tdmm, no CEC was reported on my soil analysis. Our soil is sandy loam but has a heavy clay base all around the property (~5 acres).
What is the difference from ag lime and dolomite lime? Best as I can tell, ag lime just has higher Ca content?

I have used pelletized gypsum a few times with decent results. Recently saved all the gypsum board scraps from a construction site by the house and am experimenting with one of our beds (NB see here.
Spread the scraps out, tilled in with tractor, and am keeping it watered to facilitate breakdown.

As far as organic matter, I use plenty of compost and manure - mainly chicken (free, we have birds that spread it for us :tongue2:) and horse (get it from the neighbor).

Worm populations are still relatively low, I assume because of the relatively high soil density and somewhat low tilth.
In areas where I have trees and garden beds, the soil is well worked. I focus more energy in special areas than on the whole yard, it is far too big.
We have been continuously improving the soil on the property for five years and it is leagues beyond where we started.
Still trying to laser it into the sweet spot. Been a long process but always making progress :thumbup:

edit: Also was just reading today about wood ashes. Anyone have experience with this?

Edited by turtle_hermit (09/29/14 08:31 PM)

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Re: problems with pH [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #20638282 -

Ag lime is almost entirely ca, whereas dolomite lime is usually around 60/40 ca/mg.  The ideal ca/mg saturation in your TCEC is about 68% ca/12% mg, so using dolomite leads to an imbalance.  Excess magnesium in your TCEC causes hard, cloddy soil.

I'm honestly not sure pH is your problem.  If you balance your major cations, pH will reflect that.  Raising pH shouldn't be a goal in itself, you should look at pH as an indicator of whether or not your cations are in balance.

The best book I've read on this is called The Intelligent Gardener by Steve Solomon.  Some of it is still over my head though.  The book is geared towards vegetable gardens, not citrus, but you can apply the science to any soil once you get an understanding of how it works.

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Re: problems with pH [Re: tdmm]
    #20638353 -

So I just skimmed through that book again and came across this paragraph in the section on pH that may be of help to you:

Actually, soil pH below 6.4 is not necessarily a result of too little lime or of too little calcium.  It is a result of the soil's exchange capacity (TCEC) holding too many exchangeable hydrogen cations and too few calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium cations.  Adding any of these cations increases pH (i.e., reduces the number of hydrogen cations being held).  Having a soil pH above 6.4 does not mean there is plenty of calcium and no lime is needed.  It means that there are enough cations of magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium combined to eliminated most or all of the hydrogen cations.  It is often the case that a soil will test mildly alkaline, have a pH of 7.5, yet be shockingly short in calcium.  In that soil, nothing grows well.

So based on what you've said about your soil report, it sounds like you likely have a very high TCEC and not enough combined ca/mg/k/na to take up a high enough percentage of this TCEC.

The ideal ratio of cations btw is 68% ca/12% mg/4% k/2% na.  This is based on your TCEC, so to calculate the levels you need you need to know your TCEC...  you can't be sure you have too much or too little without knowing your TCEC.

Edited by tdmm (09/30/14 01:36 AM)

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