Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

Community > The Pub
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 |  [ show all ]
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20247349 -

The Ecstatic said:
Juicin said:
I don't see how you could have read Zinn's book and read it as a genocide to wipe out the natives as you're suggesting. He didn't put it that way in the book

Wipe out their culture and take their land yes.

Wipe out their blood? No

It doesn't have the same tone as the genocide in Rwanda or the Holocaust. It was a cultural genocide.


Which, by definition, is still fucking genocide.


Whatever imagery that stirs up in your head isn't my problem, nor does it change the definition of the word.


Holy shit dude, we didn't turn it into a genocide until the last 100 years where we have tried to actively destroy their culture and sterilize their women.

Killing at MOST 10% of the population isn't a genocide by any definition of the word. If you took the time to read his book you shouldn't just say stupid shit and make us all look bad. This is why he gets a bad rap, it's not a fucking history book meant to be read by some one who knows nothing about history.


Edited by Juicin (07/09/14 01:52 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20247363 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
Ah Howard Zinn you know hes not a real historian.


I had never heard of this guy but 30 seconds on wikipedia tells me he had a PhD in history from Columbia University. What exactly would you say qualifies a person as a real historian?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: topdog82] * 1
    #20247389 -

It's not semantics

Genocide is a very specific term, for a very specific act

I don't know much of anything about the history of Hawaii, and that isn't the topic at hand.

I'm clearly better informed than you, I don't know what you want me to say.

Do we owe the natives? Of course. Did we actively seek to wipe them off the planet in 1800? No

There is a correct reading of history and one that's too soft and one that's too harsh on us. You're demonstrably overly harsh in your reading of this history.

There was no genocide at the time

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: topdog82]
    #20247403 -

dakaen said:
Juicin said:
Indians who refused to assimilate and give up their land......

It's a land grab not a genocide, there's a difference

That's what you do when you colonize, you take fucking land. And once Indians started scalping pioneers and vice versa there was a real conflict going on. It wasn't shipping non violent natives off to slave labor camps to die.

All they had to do was give up their land.


Whatever bro; millions of people were killed I don't give a fuck whether you call it a land grab or a genocide. Murder is murder. And all I know is if CHILDREN were murdered by settlers and the US military I can't see how that doesn't qualify as attempted genocide. I mean what possible reasoning could they have to murder women and children if it was only to take their land?

Also I should note that Indians didn't scalp until Europeans arrived. It was originally a European practice.

Also what the fuck do you call the Reservations? Thousands of people died on the reservations due to starvation from the lack of food, and disease from the lack of clean water, and medicine. How is that different from the concentration camps? Because it was an "accident"?... Fuck that.

Fucking ridiculous...



Crazy as it sounds, Native Americans didn't enjoy being forced into the god damn desert to survive, so some stood their ground.

The US military then decided to eradicate these people.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20247405 -

What, exactly, is the problem with that?


--------------------
A Hella Heady List of My Favorite Shroomy People - Click Here!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: psi]
    #20247415 -

psi said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Ah Howard Zinn you know hes not a real historian.


I had never heard of this guy but 30 seconds on wikipedia tells me he had a PhD in history from Columbia University. What exactly would you say qualifies a person as a real historian?


I don't care what his credentials are his book is essentially a propaganda piece set to revise history and paint the US as the worlds most evil nation. Many historians disagree with Zinn and his use of evidence is very suspect since he has an obvious agenda. A much better read on this subject is Guns,Germs and Steel by James Diamond. It is meticulously researched and there is no obvious political bias.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Juicin]
    #20247416 -

Juicin said:
How many fucking times do I have to say it?

There is no evidence pioneers "killed" as in physically ended teh lives of "millions" of natives.

Even at 5 million that's only 5% of the Native population. It's not a genocide by definition. And we didn't come close to killing a million much less 5

At the highest estimate it was 10%, which is fucking ridiculous. And that isn't a fucking genocide


Really? So if you don't kill off 100% of a particular race or nationality, it doesn't count?

Somebody needs to tell the Jews the Holocaust wasn't a genocide. Or East Timor, or Rwanda, or Darfur, or Armenia, or Serbia.

Your justifications are sickening.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20247427 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
A much better history to read would Guns, Germs and Steel by James Diamond. He essentially shows how it was possible for whites to conquer most of the americas with ease. It was due to the natives having no resistance to diseases. To be honest its a miracle any natives at all managed to survive.



I'm assuming the Guns and Steel parts were added to make the cover more appealing?


:doublefacepalm:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20247439 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
psi said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Ah Howard Zinn you know hes not a real historian.


I had never heard of this guy but 30 seconds on wikipedia tells me he had a PhD in history from Columbia University. What exactly would you say qualifies a person as a real historian?


I don't care what his credentials are his book is essentially a propaganda piece set to revise history and paint the US as the worlds most evil nation. Many historians disagree with Zinn and his use of evidence is very suspect since he has an obvious agenda. A much better read on this subject is Guns,Germs and Steel by James Diamond. It is meticulously researched and there is no obvious political bias.



So I'm supposed to discredit someone with a doctorate degree in history from Columbia University because you tell me has an obvious agenda.


The only one with an agenda here is you.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20247441 -

The Ecstatic said:
Juicin said:
How many fucking times do I have to say it?

There is no evidence pioneers "killed" as in physically ended teh lives of "millions" of natives.

Even at 5 million that's only 5% of the Native population. It's not a genocide by definition. And we didn't come close to killing a million much less 5

At the highest estimate it was 10%, which is fucking ridiculous. And that isn't a fucking genocide


Really? So if you don't kill off 100% of a particular race or nationality, it doesn't count?

Somebody needs to tell the Jews the Holocaust wasn't a genocide. Or East Timor, or Rwanda, or Darfur, or Armenia, or Serbia.

Your justifications are sickening.


The Ecstatic said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
A much better history to read would Guns, Germs and Steel by James Diamond. He essentially shows how it was possible for whites to conquer most of the americas with ease. It was due to the natives having no resistance to diseases. To be honest its a miracle any natives at all managed to survive.



I'm assuming the Guns and Steel parts were added to make the cover more appealing?


:doublefacepalm:


No they to played a role as did the Europeans having domesticated horses. It is much better than Zinns politically biased "history".


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #20247448 -

The Ecstatic said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
psi said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Ah Howard Zinn you know hes not a real historian.


I had never heard of this guy but 30 seconds on wikipedia tells me he had a PhD in history from Columbia University. What exactly would you say qualifies a person as a real historian?


I don't care what his credentials are his book is essentially a propaganda piece set to revise history and paint the US as the worlds most evil nation. Many historians disagree with Zinn and his use of evidence is very suspect since he has an obvious agenda. A much better read on this subject is Guns,Germs and Steel by James Diamond. It is meticulously researched and there is no obvious political bias.



So I'm supposed to discredit someone with a doctorate degree in history from Columbia University because you tell me has an obvious agenda.


The only one with an agenda here is you.


Not at all I am just pointing out he is a revisionist with a left wing agenda. The fact that you have swallowed what he writes about makes it even more critical for me to present a counter point.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: something super extreme]
    #20247462 -

Juicin said:
Do we owe the natives? Of course. Did we actively seek to wipe them off the planet in 1800? No



What, exactly, are these people owed? No one involved in that situation is alive today.

sVs said:
What, exactly, is the problem with that?


Another very valid point!


--------------------
Check Out My Beats
SoundCloud

[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #20247509 -

ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Juicin said:
Do we owe the natives? Of course. Did we actively seek to wipe them off the planet in 1800? No



What, exactly, are these people owed? No one involved in that situation is alive today.

sVs said:
What, exactly, is the problem with that?


Another very valid point!


Are you fucking serious? There are black, brown, and red men and women all over this fucking country living who are owed because of harm due to racist policies.

We were force sterilizing their women while they were in the clinics for other procedures.

https://cbhd.org/content/forced-sterilization-native-americans-late-twentieth-century-physician-cooperation-national-

This is the most obvious example, we also steal their children

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/25/141672992/native-foster-care-lost-children-shattered-families

If you don't think there aren't large groups of colored people our government owes living you're an idiot.

The litany of things that the white man did to remove living African American's ability to acquire and keep capital go on and on.

There are plenty of books on the subject, here is a new one I saw a few weeks back. The interview includes a living black man who we as Americans owe.

Just skip to the older black man telling his story.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Juicin]
    #20247513 -

Eh, so they got a bad hand.

Doesn't mean they are owed shit.


--------------------
Check Out My Beats
SoundCloud

[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #20247521 -

Got a bad hand?

In some of these cases there are direct monetary harms

In others like force fucking sterilization you should be compensated a lot of money. If the government cut your fucking nuts off without your permission I'd imagine you'd like the right to sue.

Or shoved you in a fucking foster home where you got abused you'd want some cash too. Especially when they took you away from your loving parents.

Fucking white people, oh well you'll be the minority soon and haven't been the highest earners per capita in a long time.

Edited by Juicin (07/09/14 02:28 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20247533 -

Quote:
Gilgamesh said:

Not at all I am just pointing out he is a revisionist with a left wing agenda. The fact that you have swallowed what he writes about makes it even more critical for me to present a counter point.


Your opinion on Zinn or his book don't make it fact.

Also, there is no counterpoint to Native American genocide. It happened. Accept it, deny it, whatever, I don't give a fuck at this point.


Even for the Pub, never would've thought such a concrete fact could be outright dismissed


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Juicin]
    #20247535 -

I don't believe anyone owes anyone anything, man. Not just this particular incident.

Lazy fuckers wantin' handouts.


--------------------
Check Out My Beats
SoundCloud

[quote]Sheekle said:
[quote]ThatKidWithTheFace said:
Is this the same aunt that fucks dogs?[/quote]
u bet ur ass it is.[/quote]

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #20247544 -

ThatKidWithTheFace said:
I don't believe anyone owes anyone anything, man. Not just this particular incident.

Lazy fuckers wantin' handouts.


Have you ever been so lazy that you got sterilized and sent to an abusive foster home?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: ThatKidWithTheFace]
    #20247546 -

Yea that's rational, I'll consider that when I take your shit and remind you no one has a responsibility to uphold your rights.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Juicin]
    #20247552 -

Juicin said:
Are you fucking serious? There are black, brown, and red men and women all over this fucking country living who are owed because of harm due to racist policies.


Those that actually owned slaves or killed Indians should of course pay reparations to those who actually were slaves or who were actually killed.

Other than that, years of special programs are enough.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 |  [ show all ]

Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, Injection Grain Bag   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale

Community > The Pub
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Native Americans
( 1 2 3 all )		 Organic 5,257 43 06/21/05 08:37 PM
by HELLA_TIGHT
* Native americans?
( 1 2 3 4 all )		 AsTroNoMic_ChAoS 6,502 73 10/10/06 05:53 PM
by hoopershroomer
* DONT mess with native american stuff!
( 1 2 all )		 Pigsarefood 3,557 22 11/13/06 03:26 AM
by stefan
* Who knows a lot about Native Americans Adden 942 6 04/07/05 11:53 AM
by Roadkill
* a public apology to all those of native/south american descent
( 1 2 all )		 DoctorJ 5,813 33 05/04/06 07:53 PM
by eligal
* American or Inhabitant of America
( 1 2 all )		 daimyo 3,480 36 04/27/05 10:02 PM
by looner2
* American life?
( 1 2 all )		 filthysock 4,518 20 03/03/04 09:54 PM
by Dreamer987
* AMERICANS, do you see what the world sees?
( 1 2 all )		 Todcasil 3,427 37 09/04/05 11:21 PM
by Skunk420

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
8,130 topic views. 4 members, 36 guests and 247 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.043 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 16 queries.