nicechrisman said:

I'll bet I could kick my neighbor's ass and lay claim to their back yard that they rarely use.

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Then you would go to jail. Why not simply trade some beads for his land

Gilgamesh18 said:

The Ecstatic said:

You understanding of history is atrocious.


Yes, the Native Americans were victims of imperialism.

But so were Europeans from the Moors.
So were Greeks from the Persians.


Is it so difficult to accept that white people have done wrong in the past 10,000 years?

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I am not arguing that mistakes were not made but they mostly settled a empty continent with a small native population comparative to the Europeans.

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The Ecstatic said:

Gilgamesh18 said:

The Ecstatic said:

You understanding of history is atrocious.


Yes, the Native Americans were victims of imperialism.

But so were Europeans from the Moors.
So were Greeks from the Persians.


Is it so difficult to accept that white people have done wrong in the past 10,000 years?

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I am not arguing that mistakes were not made but they mostly settled a empty continent with a small native population comparative to the Europeans.

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Not really.

Most experts put the indigenous population of pre-Columbian America between 50-100 million.

And even this number is flawed, because, by the time Europeans got around to counting them, there were a lot less around.

Even at 100 million, that's about 1/3rd of the current US population. Smallpox, and other diseases, didn't gradually sweep across the continent across the span of 400 years, sorry.

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The Ecstatic said:

Prove it.


Why would being exposed to a disease that kills the modern person in a few days take half a millennia to wipe out people with no immunity whatsoever?

It was genocide. If you can't admit that, then there's no point in continuing the conversation.

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nicechrisman said:

I have some nice blankets for trade

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Dude, I wanna blanket!

I've got this image in my head of you standing by a van selling cactus themed quilts

Gilgamesh18 said:

Asante said:

How savage were the people who conquered the Americas and laid waste to the many nations of its native inhabitants?

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White guilt

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Gilgamesh18 said:

The Ecstatic said:

Prove it.


Why would being exposed to a disease that kills the modern person in a few days take half a millennia to wipe out people with no immunity whatsoever?

It was genocide. If you can't admit that, then there's no point in continuing the conversation.

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Within just a few generations, the continents of the Americas were virtually emptied of their native inhabitants – some academics estimate that approximately 20 million people may have died in the years following the European invasion – up to 95% of the population of the Americas.

No medieval force, no matter how bloodthirsty, could have achieved such enormous levels of genocide. Instead, Europeans were aided by a deadly secret weapon they weren't even aware they were carrying: Smallpox.

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html

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Asante said:

Gilgamesh18 said:

Asante said:

How savage were the people who conquered the Americas and laid waste to the many nations of its native inhabitants?

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White guilt

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Gilgamesh18 said:

Nothing at all of course senselessly blaming whites isn't really the answer though.

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Who's white guilt are we talking about? I simply turn the question around and you immediately come crying about white guilt and how the white man is senselessly blamed. Senselessly blamed for what?

Boohoohoo man, I'm just turning the question around and you take it as an attack, not on some of the settlers but on the entire white race, and launch a counterattack. You are turning this into a race thing and stand in defense of the white man.

Got a bad conscience that you feel you have to defend the white man when hes not even under attack?

Is the notion so intolerable that some of those who conquered the Americas somewhere have done pretty shitty things? And indeed would it be so outlandish to assume some level of responsibility on their part, and to express this?

I don't feel personal guilt over that Gilgamesh but maybe you do since you feel the need to oppose and take a stand.

So I ask you Gilgamesh, are you feeling bad about the white mans actions throughout history?

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The Ecstatic said:

Gilgamesh18 said:

The Ecstatic said:

Prove it.


Why would being exposed to a disease that kills the modern person in a few days take half a millennia to wipe out people with no immunity whatsoever?

It was genocide. If you can't admit that, then there's no point in continuing the conversation.

---

Within just a few generations, the continents of the Americas were virtually emptied of their native inhabitants – some academics estimate that approximately 20 million people may have died in the years following the European invasion – up to 95% of the population of the Americas.

No medieval force, no matter how bloodthirsty, could have achieved such enormous levels of genocide. Instead, Europeans were aided by a deadly secret weapon they weren't even aware they were carrying: Smallpox.

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html

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That number is a gross underestimation.

But let's say even at 50 million, smallpox killed 9/10 people.

That's 5 million Native Americans we still had to kill.



gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun

    the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.



You can argue the severity of the genocide all you want, but it's still genocide.

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Asante said:

Not all of em though.

And thats key to the original question. The original question is very ethnically polarized.  The native americans measured relative to, well probably white europeans.

You just cant do that. There were so many nations and they went through so many stages of development.

Take Germany for one. 70 years ago, very savage. Now they kick ass at economics and football. One nation.

And evenb within Nazi Germany the majority ofd people were good people, and you couldnt really hold them accountable for the politics of their nation.

Some nations were peaceful, some were warloving, but in all cases most of the people were sort of OK.

The original question is entirely too ethnically polarized and simplified.

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March Hare said:

Ah, the interwebz.


Question: How savage were the Native Americans?

Answer: White people committed atrocities.

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The Ecstatic said:

March Hare said:

Ah, the interwebz.


Question: How savage were the Native Americans?

Answer: White people committed atrocities.

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It could've been as simple as everyone accepting that, but somebody thinks a hemisphere worth of people died from disease.

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I am not denying there were skirmishes with the indians. However disease did the vast majority of the work. Pretty scary how deadly disease can be huh.