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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20243078 -

When Columbus was governor of some island territory in the Americas he was a tyrant. After a slave rebellion of the islanders he cut them up, and put them on sticks for display.

Then again I do like the modern Americas, but probably could have been easier.


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I don't want a signature.

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Adden]
    #20243080 -

Hey, not disagreeing. I believe violence is human nature. I don't think shitty people are exclusive to one race, one group, one anything.

There are good people

And there is pure human scum

In any and every group, these both exist.

I'm unsure about them "learning" from the invaders, but I could be wrong.

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: topdog82] * 2
    #20243096 -

topdog82 said:
Depending on your source, some portray the natives as peaceful. Others portray the natives as extremely violent

I am not going to disagree at all that post columbian arrival, the natives were violent. But I would be too if 90% of my family was wiped out from disease and enslaved

So my question is:
In pre-columbian times, were native americans war-like or peaceful?

My guess is that there was little reason for war. The land had relatively low population density. And 200 million people sharing the continent I think there was little reason for resource control. The Incans greeted the conquistadors in a friendly manner. As did the mayans. But I think the aztecs did not at all (if  I remember correctly). Taino's were the first natives to greet columbus. Reading columbus' journal reveals they extremely friendly. As with many of Lewis and Clark's journals, there is little conflict (If I remember correctly)

Obviously, war happened. Humans are humans, and they will act accordingly. But were the Natives actively violent and war mongering?

I know there are many posters here with a deep understanding of topics like this. I would like to here your more qualified opinion. All of my knowledge on the topic is derived from liberal/hippie california school system so it could be bias


There were a lot of different tribes that practiced a lot of different ways of life. Some were more warlike than others. The empires of Mesoamerica, in particular, were known for regional wars with rival states, whereas the loosely interconnected tribes of the north were more pacific. Some of the wars were bloodless (with the intent to incapacitate or deprive of territory, rather than kill, the enemy tribe) while others had some killing.

As I understand it, the agreement made between the Indians and the Pilgrims celebrated by Thanksgiving actually involved a trade of food for guns, which were used to attack a rival tribe. The obviously superior weapons, armor, and ships of the Europeans can probably explain the warm welcomes they received from the natives in general.

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20243134 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
Many native american tribes took slaves and fought brutal wars with other tribes. Don't fall for the white guilt crap that only whites were violent.


sVs said:
Bingo. Whites aren't the only shitty people on the planet.
Native Americans just get sympathy now because a bigger bully finally came along.


Gilgamesh18 said:
Dystopia said:
peace of mind 1 said:
Yeah scalping seemed like it was a really peaceful thing.


The invaders taught them well. Monkey see, monkey do. As far as "savages", a lot of religions believed if the body wasn't dismembered then the soul could return and harm them.


Invaders wut the natives scalped and fought wars millenia before the evil whites showed up. :rolleyes:


I am almost sure that scalping was taught to the natives by europeans. I read quite lot about it when I was doing my histroy paper
http://www.hawthorneinsalem.org/ScholarsForum/MMD2263.html
There were other articles that said otherwise


But more importantly, I was wondering if either of you guys had cold-hard firsthand accounts of violence. OBVIOUSLY pre-columbian times were violent

But i mean upon first contact, are there any journal entries?
Both sides of this arugement could state arguements that are vague, blank and bias. I was looking for raw journals of explorers, specifcially first contact

Because some will say "dont listen to the hippies". And the other side will say otherwise

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #20243148 -

BlindSophist said:
topdog82 said:
Depending on your source, some portray the natives as peaceful. Others portray the natives as extremely violent

I am not going to disagree at all that post columbian arrival, the natives were violent. But I would be too if 90% of my family was wiped out from disease and enslaved

So my question is:
In pre-columbian times, were native americans war-like or peaceful?

My guess is that there was little reason for war. The land had relatively low population density. And 200 million people sharing the continent I think there was little reason for resource control. The Incans greeted the conquistadors in a friendly manner. As did the mayans. But I think the aztecs did not at all (if  I remember correctly). Taino's were the first natives to greet columbus. Reading columbus' journal reveals they extremely friendly. As with many of Lewis and Clark's journals, there is little conflict (If I remember correctly)

Obviously, war happened. Humans are humans, and they will act accordingly. But were the Natives actively violent and war mongering?

I know there are many posters here with a deep understanding of topics like this. I would like to here your more qualified opinion. All of my knowledge on the topic is derived from liberal/hippie california school system so it could be bias


There were a lot of different tribes that practiced a lot of different ways of life. Some were more warlike than others. The empires of Mesoamerica, in particular, were known for regional wars with rival states, whereas the loosely interconnected tribes of the north were more pacific. Some of the wars were bloodless (with the intent to incapacitate or deprive of territory, rather than kill, the enemy tribe) while others had some killing.

As I understand it, the agreement made between the Indians and the Pilgrims celebrated by Thanksgiving actually involved a trade of food for guns, which were used to attack a rival tribe. The obviously superior weapons, armor, and ships of the Europeans can probably explain the warm welcomes they received from the natives in general.


I guess this was the generalization that I was looking for. But to the Inca, 40 eurpean men must have been a lauhable joke. I am surprised he did not kill them on the spot.

And I also assumed that the more densely populated areas had more conflict. And the lesser populated areas had less conflict

Any accurate sources would be appeaciated

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: topdog82]
    #20243153 -

ahh this thread is cute.

remember then English people used to shoot cannons straight at people's chest and head after tying them up to the barrel? ahh, no savagery there!

also, i don't recall the Indians actually trying to wipe out other tribes. though they were hated. no, they left well enough alone lest they were "offended" then there would be repercussions and scalping.

they actually practiced sharing women for marriage, some tribes.

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20243164 -

They also scalped women and children as a token of warrior prowess and honor.
Every group on the planet has an aspect of savagery to it. It's what kept them from getting shit on by their neighbors.


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A Hella Heady List of My Favorite Shroomy People - Click Here!

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20243176 -

akira_akuma said:
ahh this thread is cute.

remember then English people used to shoot cannons straight at people's chest and head after tying them up to the barrel? ahh, no savagery there!

also, i don't recall the Indians actually trying to wipe out other tribes. though they were hated. no, they left well enough alone lest they were "offended" then there would be repercussions and scalping.

they actually practiced sharing women for marriage, some tribes.


No one is arguing that the whites did not practice savagery. The natives were not morally superior though they did attempt genocide on other tribes, they took slaves burned forests.


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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: topdog82]
    #20243177 -

Based on some natives we have here. They probably were peaceful. Then again, the same group of people in today's world could be called savages.

The gvm spent many millions of dollar building the natie houses on te reserves. Then the natives started pitching tee-pees in the backyard and striping the house of its 2X4s to feed their fire. After a year the houses were ruins....


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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: something super extreme]
    #20243186 -

Just as savage as us.

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Notfromarkansas]
    #20243189 -

wow dude, that's really profound and insightful.


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A Hella Heady List of My Favorite Shroomy People - Click Here!

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #20243198 -

Once again, I assume that natives acted like humans do in survival situations. they defend themselves in a scary terrfying world

But my question is were they abnormally friendly or savage?

and once again, people keep posting very vague and generlized statements. I was looking for sources, links, or books on both sides
akira_akuma said:
ahh this thread is cute.

remember then English people used to shoot cannons straight at people's chest and head after tying them up to the barrel? ahh, no savagery there!

also, i don't recall the Indians actually trying to wipe out other tribes. though they were hated. no, they left well enough alone lest they were "offended" then there would be repercussions and scalping.

they actually practiced sharing women for marriage, some tribes.


once again, I feel we get an innaccurate picture because the white man was so fucked up. I dont think we get an objective view on natives

Its clear that they were pissed off. I kno this. But I can't really put my finger on anything objective which shows savagery or peace

I feel that we decide what we want to think about them; savage or peaceful; and then decide how to fill in that conclusion with evidence

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: topdog82]
    #20243208 -

they weren't savage. they were an old people with an old idea of honor. (which is general an old outdated idea)

that's the only "savage" part. the fact that they are an old civilization. (not anymore.)

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: something super extreme]
    #20243213 -

sVs said:
They also scalped women and children as a token of warrior prowess and honor.
Every group on the planet has an aspect of savagery to it. It's what kept them from getting shit on by their neighbors.


correct. my recent post asserts similar conclusions.

Gilgamesh18 said:
akira_akuma said:
ahh this thread is cute.

remember then English people used to shoot cannons straight at people's chest and head after tying them up to the barrel? ahh, no savagery there!

also, i don't recall the Indians actually trying to wipe out other tribes. though they were hated. no, they left well enough alone lest they were "offended" then there would be repercussions and scalping.

they actually practiced sharing women for marriage, some tribes.


No one is arguing that the whites did not practice savagery. The natives were not morally superior though they did attempt genocide on other tribes, they took slaves burned forests.


not the majority however. and nobody is morally superior... not yet. :shrug:

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Herbologist]
    #20243327 -

Herbologist said:
I read that it was certain tribes that were violent, such as in Africa.


I cant believe everyone missed this gem of a post LOL


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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: morrowasted]
    #20243572 -

morrowasted said:
about as savage as comparably technologically developed civilizations


Pretty much.  They had conflicts with each other, and sometimes resolved those conflicts violently.  Some tribes were traditional enemies of other tribes, and in fact, European settlers were able to take advantage of this by allying themselves with one tribe against their rivals.  In short, they were people, just like you and me.


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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Silversoul]
    #20243597 -

"people"
:loldongs:

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: Franz Kafka]
    #20244579 -

Franz Kafka said:
When Columbus was governor of some island territory in the Americas he was a tyrant. After a slave rebellion of the islanders he cut them up, and put them on sticks for display.

Then again I do like the modern Americas, but probably could have been easier.


for one of my classes i've read letters from "blackrobes" that went over with the conquistadors in order to convert the natives to catholicism. they describe unspeakable acts of cruelty like throwing newborn babies into the river. but then again, you have the mesoamerican tribes cutting people's hearts out in huge numbers. i think the age of conquest was just a particularly brutal time in human history.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: millzy]
    #20244613 -

by the way, i'm curious, were the inca as violent as the maya and aztec? for some reason i've always gotten the impression that they were the nice ones of the bunch. anyone know?


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: How savage were the Native Americans? [Re: millzy] * 1
    #20244674 -

Can't sum up an entire continent full of several hundred tribes, cultures and military superpowers and sum them all up as either "Savage" or "Peaceful". It's just silly, really damn silly. Even after the beginning of European colonization of both American continents, we are still talking about OVER 500 years of evolving war technology, cultural assimilation, yada yada yada. Anywhere from 10 million to 70 million people by any range of estimates across an enormous piece of land covering over a third of the planet.

Were the Native Americans savages? Sure, all humans are if you want to sum them all up in one group. It's damn silly man, so damn silly.

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