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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216352 -

Patlal said:
Enlil said:
It's not so much that the government wants to take freedom away as it is just a natural tendency of those with power to seek more power.  Reduction of freedom is just a natural byproduct of that tendency.  If they could gain power without taking freedom, they'd do it, but that's simply not possible.


Isn't the entire conservative movement seeking to take power a reduce the government's size that would require a microscope to observe?


No.  Yet another example that you have no clue.  That would be anarchism.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: maddad]
    #20216363 -

maddad said:
Enlil said:
Freedom is a spectrum.  No one on the planet is absolutely free.  The purpose of civilization is to allow people to coexist.  That requires some limitations on freedoms.  I don't want you to have the freedom to kill me just like you don't want me to have the freedom to kill you.  So, as a society, we've agreed to give up that freedom so that we can coexist.

If politicians don't serve the will of the people, it's only because the people choose not to speak up.  Silence is often taken as assent.


I agree with what you are saying, but I don't feel that the argument is valid. Sure no one is free, that is a given, but animals don't kill just because. They kill for food or to protect their territory. There are some "laws" that exist as a by product of the way the universe works.

At this point in time we are giving up more freedoms than we get to appease the society. There comes a time when we must stand up for our beliefs as individuals to be able to live our lives and express ourselves in the way we choose. If that was how society was run there would be a lot less people being serial killers and rapists and all the rest.


Ummm no.  No matter what there will be whackos and assholes.
Quote:
We can coexist without killing each other without an official law that says you can't. Numerous people have been sent to jail on murder charges in cases of self defense. In my opinion, if you are happy with the way the world is then you are a product of the society, and have sacrificed your own being for a collective lie.


But you're a collectivist routinely spouting collectivist lies


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20216365 -

zappaisgod said:
Patlal said:
Enlil said:
It's not so much that the government wants to take freedom away as it is just a natural tendency of those with power to seek more power.  Reduction of freedom is just a natural byproduct of that tendency.  If they could gain power without taking freedom, they'd do it, but that's simply not possible.


Isn't the entire conservative movement seeking to take power a reduce the government's size that would require a microscope to observe?


No.  Yet another example that you have no clue.  That would be anarchism.


Come on, you know what I mean. Small government, low taxes, public service for mandatory things only. etc...


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216385 -

Patlal said:
Isn't the entire conservative movement seeking to take power to reduce the government's size that would require a microscope to observe?


I think you're confused again about federalism.  When conservatives talk about reducing government, they're talking about reducing the FEDERAL government...not government in general.  The point of federalism is to leave the majority of legislation at the state level so that people can choose to live in a way appropriate for them instead of being subject to a huge monolithic government that tries to be everything to every one of the 300+ million citizens here.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20216407 -

Enlil said:
Patlal said:
Isn't the entire conservative movement seeking to take power to reduce the government's size that would require a microscope to observe?


I think you're confused again about federalism.  When conservatives talk about reducing government, they're talking about reducing the FEDERAL government...not government in general.  The point of federalism is to leave the majority of legislation at the state level so that people can choose to live in a way appropriate for them instead of being subject to a huge monolithic government that tries to be everything to every one of the 300+ million citizens here.


True.

I still think the conservatives want to reduce state government too. And the municipal, etc. How else are you suppose to get lower taxes?


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216450 -

The lion's share of taxation in the U.S. is federal.

Still, even if state taxes went up, that wouldn't be as bad as federal taxes because you'd know that your money is staying in the state and not going off to another state to subsidize their piss poor decisions.  Also, the lower the level of government, the more a person can have his voice heard.  Government is more responsive at the lower levels, too.  A city council is far more responsive to citizen opinions than the federal government could ever be.

That's why keeping power at the lower levels is better for everyone.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20216499 -

Enlil said:
The lion's share of taxation in the U.S. is federal.

Still, even if state taxes went up, that wouldn't be as bad as federal taxes because you'd know that your money is staying in the state and not going off to another state to subsidize their piss poor decisions.  Also, the lower the level of government, the more a person can have his voice heard.  Government is more responsive at the lower levels, too.  A city council is far more responsive to citizen opinions than the federal government could ever be.

That's why keeping power at the lower levels is better for everyone.


A) you assume that the federal government ALWAYS make bad decisions

B) You don't like sharing.


The federal government makes more good decision than bad ones. They do consult experts and since most decision aren't interesting to the media, nobody ever knows its been made except the people it directly affects.


Sending you money to other states is a good move. It pays for the development of projects that the State didn't have enough cash to develop itself. Pretty much the definition unison. You know... United S of A


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20216501 -

Bringing up the fact that other countries are less free than we are does not make a valid case for us being free, only less oppressed. Every arguement I have heard in this thread to back our government is sad and misled. Just like our entire population.

Nationalism is a very dirty subject and I feel like there is too much of that going on here. All I'm hearing is "America, fuck yeah". It's sad that people still believe in the American Dream. Because no talent idiots can make a life for themselves being celebrities and get whatever they want. If you support that then you have no credibility in my eyes and are a waste of life.
Enlil said:
The lion's share of taxation in the U.S. is federal.

Still, even if state taxes went up, that wouldn't be as bad as federal taxes because you'd know that your money is staying in the state and not going off to another state to subsidize their piss poor decisions.  Also, the lower the level of government, the more a person can have his voice heard.  Government is more responsive at the lower levels, too.  A city council is far more responsive to citizen opinions than the federal government could ever be.

That's why keeping power at the lower levels is better for everyone.


That is how our government was supposed to run in the first place. The federal government is supposed to be secondary to the states. But now it's the other way around and the people and the states are supporting the federal government, and giving them all the power.


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I live in an aura of hope because I live in a twilight world of my own self-generated, cannabinated fantasy, and I forget that not everyone is so fortunate. - Terence McKenna

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216541 -

Patlal said:
A) you assume that the federal government ALWAYS make bad decisions

B) You don't like sharing.



I don't assume anything.  It isn't about "good" or "bad" decisions.  It's about decisions that represent the will of the people.  When "the people" is 300 million, it's hard to represent the will.  When you break that down into smaller groups, however, it is much easier to make laws that are more representative of those groups, even if they aren't uniform across the entire nation.

And the word "united" is nice and all, but the key word in USA is "states".  A key component of being a state is sovereignty.  The nation was formed as a group of sovereign states uniting together to form "a more perfect union"...not some giant country where everyone answers to the government in Washington.

I realize this is foreign to you (both literally and figuratively), but the Constitution is clearly written in a way to form a small federal government meant to handle those things that should be handled on a national level while leaving everything else to the "several states". 

As to your nonsense about not wanting to share, you missed my point.  If Kansas wants to send money to California to fight wildfires in Malibu, it can do that.  If it wants to make that money contingent on California improving building and zoning codes to prevent future fires, it can do that too.  Unfortunately, we don't have that system anymore.  Now, we have the big, all-powerful fed that will write the check this year...and in two more years when it happens again...and again in another year or two...and Kansas has to pay for that without having any say in the matter.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: maddad]
    #20216556 -

Yes.  That is the abomination.  Unless there is a compelling reason, such as a national armed forces, the states should handle it.  Hell, states with foreign neighbors aren't even allowed to police their own border.  Fucking crazy ass shit.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20216568 -

The federal government is normally the biggest form of government in most countries. It represent the whole on the international level, has to pay for armies, etc.

Whats the point of having a federal government if the point is to not give it enough money to make an impact of anything?


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216581 -

Patlal said:
A) you assume that the federal government ALWAYS make bad decisions

OK--they make bad decisions 95% if the time.

B) You don't like sharing.

I don't like politicians sharing my money with other people then grandstanding about how they are 'helping people'  I'll say it once and say it again:  It is easy to be altruistic with other people's money.


The federal government makes more good decision than bad ones FOR THEMSELVES. They do consult THEIR BUTT FUCK BUDDIES IN BANKING AND INDUSTRY AND MAKE DEALS THAT ALLOW THEM TO STEAL OUR MONEY and since most decision aren't IN THE INTEREST OF THE PEOPLE THEY HIDE IT FROM THE media, nobody ever knows its been made except the people it directly affects.


Sending you money to other states SUCKS. IT ALLOWS FEDERAL POLITICIANS TO LOOT THE PEOPLE OF ONE STATE AND GIVE IT TO PEOPLE IN OTHER STATES THAT WILL VOTE FOR THEM.


I Fixed your last comments for you. :smirk:


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216587 -

The federal government should have the money to raise and maintain an army.  It should protect the borders.  It should maintain the currency and international relations.

It shouldn't provide welfare, or medical, or legislate individual conduct, or any number of things that it does today.

That's the problem with the federal government.  It has gotten too big.

P.S.  We don't give a shit was "most countries" do.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216590 -

Once again you go to hyperbolic nonsense with the no impact on anything line.  It has a role.  One example of what it shouldn't have anything to do with is education.  Should be totally state or even better local.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20216601 -

Enlil said:
The federal government should have the money to raise and maintain an army.  It should protect the borders.  It should maintain the currency and international relations.

It shouldn't provide welfare, or medical, or legislate individual conduct, or any number of things that it does today.

That's the problem with the federal government.  It has gotten too big.

P.S.  We don't give a shit was "most countries" do.


And never will.  Bunch of fucking losers that a lot of us don't want to join.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20216638 -

Enlil said:
The federal government should have the money to raise and maintain an army.  It should protect the borders.  It should maintain the currency and international relations.

It shouldn't provide welfare, or medical, or legislate individual conduct, or any number of things that it does today.

That's the problem with the federal government.  It has gotten too big.

P.S.  We don't give a shit was "most countries" do.


You should give a shit about what most countries do. The smartest thing a country could do is to adopt the systems that have been proven to be very effective by other countries. That way you reap the benefits but its another country that paid for its development


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20216664 -

When a country as large as the U.S. in both population and land area finds a system that works better than ours, I'm sure we'll look at it.  So far, that hasn't happened.  No offense, but we're not going to take advice from a guy who lives in a country with less population than one of our states.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Patlal]
    #20220413 -

Patlal said:
Enlil said:
The federal government should have the money to raise and maintain an army.  It should protect the borders.  It should maintain the currency and international relations.

It shouldn't provide welfare, or medical, or legislate individual conduct, or any number of things that it does today.

That's the problem with the federal government.  It has gotten too big.

P.S.  We don't give a shit was "most countries" do.


You should give a shit about what most countries do. The smartest thing a country could do is to adopt the systems that have been proven to be very effective by other countries. That way you reap the benefits but its another country that paid for its development


What systems?


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20220871 -

zappaisgod said:
Patlal said:
Enlil said:
The federal government should have the money to raise and maintain an army.  It should protect the borders.  It should maintain the currency and international relations.

It shouldn't provide welfare, or medical, or legislate individual conduct, or any number of things that it does today.

That's the problem with the federal government.  It has gotten too big.

P.S.  We don't give a shit was "most countries" do.


You should give a shit about what most countries do. The smartest thing a country could do is to adopt the systems that have been proven to be very effective by other countries. That way you reap the benefits but its another country that paid for its development


What systems?


My point exactly.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #20227655 -

Stonehenge said:
Its all we've got and now the big shots don't even obey the few protections we have. The lapdog media refuses to get on coconut's case, the gop is too spineless and the people have no clue.


:laugh:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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