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Why is the constitution held to be so holy?
    #20211750 -

I don't get it. It just seems stupid to me, either something makes sense or it doesn't. I mean you guys had this all the while you had slaves/apartheid so what's the deal.

It reminds me of Christians with the holy bible or any other batshit religion. Surely it's better to think for yourself, rather than having the law inscribed from the get go regardless of how good the constitution might be.

Can anyone explain this shit to a foreigner?


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #20211867 -

Because it is the agreed upon covenant between the governed and the governing


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20211943 -

zappaisgod said:
Because it is the agreed upon covenant between the governed and the governing


:awewtf:

You mean, you think the governed agree with the governing?Out of more then fear of jail for disagreement?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: imachavel]
    #20212054 -

imachavel said:
zappaisgod said:
Because it is the agreed upon covenant between the governed and the governing


:awewtf:

You mean, you think the governed agree with the governing?Out of more then fear of jail for disagreement?


Who do you think made it?  The Constitution is the people's protection from government


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #20212104 -

Its all we've got and now the big shots don't even obey the few protections we have. The lapdog media refuses to get on coconut's case, the gop is too spineless and the people have no clue.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #20212175 -

Nailed it:thumbup:


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #20212200 -

Grapefruit said:
I don't get it. It just seems stupid to me, either something makes sense or it doesn't. I mean you guys had this all the while you had slaves/apartheid so what's the deal.

It reminds me of Christians with the holy bible or any other batshit religion. Surely it's better to think for yourself, rather than having the law inscribed from the get go regardless of how good the constitution might be.

Can anyone explain this shit to a foreigner?


The constitution is designed to prevent government overreach. It is difficult for foreigners to grasp this concept when there governments trample there rights routinely. Even the US government is going down that road and ideally it needs to be heavily trimmed down.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20212312 -

Still seems weird to me. Like you say, neither your neighbour or your government is going to give a shit about some hundred year old piece of paper when they want to trample over your freedoms. :shrug:

If people disagree then they disagree and that's that. So you'd better hope you can persuade them. :shrug:


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #20212323 -

Grapefruit said:
Still seems weird to me. Like you say, neither your neighbour or your government is going to give a shit about some hundred year old piece of paper when they want to trample over your freedoms. :shrug:

If people disagree then they disagree and that's that. So you'd better hope you can persuade them. :shrug:


The constitution provides a legal framework for citizens rights in the US.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #20212526 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
The constitution is designed to prevent government overreach. It is difficult for foreigners to grasp this concept when there governments trample there rights routinely.


What's an example?  Do you mean other Governments trample people's right to live in poverty?  To not have healthcare?  To be exploited by the rich?

What rights would say the EU tramples on?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #20213392 -

Grapefruit said:
I don't get it. It just seems stupid to me, either something makes sense or it doesn't. I mean you guys had this all the while you had slaves/apartheid so what's the deal.


What's the argument here? It isn't obvious to me what you are claiming here, i.e. how slavery violated the constitution and renders it less effective in retrospect.

Quote:
Can anyone explain this shit to a foreigner?


Its a good check against populism and has some pretty nifty provisions in it.  The jealous defense of it is less due to some feeling its that good than a feeling the alternatives are that bad. 

Grapefruit said:
Still seems weird to me. Like you say, neither your neighbour or your government is going to give a shit about some hundred year old piece of paper when they want to trample over your freedoms. :shrug:

If people disagree then they disagree and that's that. So you'd better hope you can persuade them. :shrug:



Unlike many countries, in the US you can sue to enforce your rights and there are remedies for violations.  Try getting something suppressed in Canada or the UK, you'll find judges unlikely to do it, weighing the social costs of such among other horseshit.

Try expressing an unpopular opinion in Canda or the UK, you can be barred from your livlihood or jailed for having the wrong beliefs.  In the us that doesn't happen because of the constitution.  Et cet


Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
The constitution is designed to prevent government overreach. It is difficult for foreigners to grasp this concept when there governments trample there rights routinely.


What's an example?  Do you mean other Governments trample people's right to live in poverty?  To not have healthcare?  To be exploited by the rich?

What rights would say the EU tramples on?



Yes, other governments rountinely trample those rights.  You just listed a whole bunch of them and then ask what rights the EU tramples on.  What are you going on about?

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Grapefruit]
    #20213609 -

What I like about the constitution/bill of rights is that your rights are inalienable or "god-given" and not merely granted to you by the state at their whim. It might not be perfect but the ideas are timeless and it was drafted by some of the most enlightened individuals in history in my opinion.

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Aedan]
    #20213705 -

Hmmm...in my view, our constitution has some qualities that made it unique and novel at the time it was adopted - and which are still fairly unique today.  I'm not in a position to offer a detailed analysis of the similarities and differences in the constitutions of a the United States and of other countries; to keep it very simple, it's mostly about the United States being a nation that emphasizes liberty over all other values.



Many Americans would agree that most major problems that our country has created for our own people and abroad stem from violations of our constitution, and could be remedied in large part by a return to a constitutional (i.e. legitimate) government.  For example, our endless aggression in the Middle East could not be carried out if the executive branch of our government were restricted by Congress in its exercise of military power, as the constitution requires.  Similarly, we would not have prohibition of drugs if the federal government were restricted in its scope as laid out in the constitution; federal prohibition is only possible because the federal government enforces nation-wide rules on private, personal conduct using fringe authorities intended for very different purposes (e.g. interstate commerce regulation).  Etc..

I value the constitution for its unique and skillful legal basis on which a nation that emphasizes freedom as its highest value was perhaps built once, and could be rebuilt.  My understanding is that this is why many American libertarians value it.  In political discourse, it's often used as a means of invoking patriotism and nationalism to support a particular rhetoric.  Most Americans are quite stupid. :shrug:

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #20213928 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What rights would say the EU tramples on?


Freedom of speech, for one.  You can go to jail for expressing unpopular opinions.  Without freedom of speech, there can be no freedom at all.


To the OP:  The Constitution is designed to combat the greatest flaw of Democracy....namely, tyranny of the majority.  The problem is that democracies have a tendency to serve the desires of the majority and completely disenfranchise the minority.  The Constitution acts as a check on that because it can't be changed by a simple majority vote.  In other words, it provides for basic protections of our legal rights even if those rights become unpopular to the majority in the future.



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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



Edited by Enlil (07/02/14 04:10 AM)

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #20214157 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
The constitution is designed to prevent government overreach. It is difficult for foreigners to grasp this concept when there governments trample there rights routinely.


What's an example?  Do you mean other Governments trample people's right to live in poverty?  To not have healthcare?  To be exploited by the rich?

What rights would say the EU tramples on?


Freedom of speech freedom to buy and own firearms, but yea if your so poor and destitute that you need every little handout you can get then maybe the EU would work for ya.


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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20214472 -

Enlil said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What rights would say the EU tramples on?


Freedom of speech, for one.  You can go to jail for expressing unpopular opinions.  Without freedom of speech, there can be no freedom at all.


The one restriction I've heard about is that in some EU country's you can't speak favorably of the holocaust.  Are there other restrictions?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #20214624 -

Yes, there are. 

"France prohibits by its penal code and by its press laws public and private communication which is defamatory or insulting, or which incites discrimination, hatred, or violence against a person or a group of persons on account of place of origin, ethnicity or lack thereof, nationality, race, specific religion, sex, sexual orientation, or handicap. The law prohibits declarations that justify or deny crimes against humanity, for example, the Holocaust "  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

Of course, it doesn't matter how little or how much speech is criminalized...The fact that some is criminalized means that they could criminalize any unpopular speech at any time.  It also means they have the power to silence political dissent.  This is, of course, the primary tool of oppression and has been since time immemorial.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Enlil]
    #20214833 -

Well, you previously agreed there were also limitations to free speech in the US.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #20214848 -

Why is it when someone answers your question you are so quick to alter the parameters?

What he previously answered to your prior question matters for squat.

He answered this question:

Quote:
Are there other restrictions?



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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Why is the constitution held to be so holy? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #20214888 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Well, you previously agreed there were also limitations to free speech in the US.


There are limitations to all rights, sure.  No right is absolute.  There are not, however, criminal sanctions for people expressing unpopular opinions.  More importantly, no such law could ever exist in the U.S. without altering the Constitution...the topic of this thread.

Racist speech is protected by the Constitution.  Unpopular speech of all kinds is protected by the constitution.  Without that protection, a city or state could pass laws prohibiting people from criticizing those in power.  This is the value of the Constitution, after all.  France doesn't have any such check, so they could pass a law tomorrow banning all criticism of the current rulers.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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