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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught] * 1
    #19727018 -

what are your views on environmental protection?  I think it's pretty clear that given the opportunity companies and individuals will rape the fuck out of any land they're given the option to if it's profitable to do so in the short term.  The national/state parks I've been to that are privately run are gradually getting shittier as they build more hotels and golf courses in the parks, more profitable I guess.

Edited by rhave (03/21/14 04:45 AM)

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: rhave]
    #19727319 -

rhave said:
what are your views on environmental protection?  I think it's pretty clear that given the opportunity companies and individuals will rape the fuck out of any land they're given the option to if it's profitable to do so in the short term.  The national/state parks I've been to that are privately run are gradually getting shittier as they build more hotels and golf courses in the parks, more profitable I guess.


Thats silly there are lots of examples of public land being fucked over by the government as well cough cough toxic waste dumps in nevada. If an individuals well is poisoned he can sue the company responsible if he dies the company is guilty of murder a crime. Laws and the justice system don't just fly out the window libertarianism is not anarchy.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: BlackWidow]
    #19727469 -

you are a LINO LOL


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Rate me here

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: rhave]
    #19728012 -

rhave said:
what are your views on environmental protection?  I think it's pretty clear that given the opportunity companies and individuals will rape the fuck out of any land they're given the option to if it's profitable to do so in the short term.  The national/state parks I've been to that are privately run are gradually getting shittier as they build more hotels and golf courses in the parks, more profitable I guess.


i'm in favor of environmental protection to an extent. Also i'd like to see national/state parks that are privately run where the private owners had the sole power to decide if more hotels/golf course were to be built. Usually privately run parks only have the ability to manage it, not completely alter the landscape of the park. In fact the trend has been that as land gets more privatized the quality of said land improves:
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2013/10/08/is-it-time-to-privatize-our-national-parks/

The government owns a huge portion of the land in this country, i'd like to see it turned back to the people.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19728566 -

how is privatizing land giving it back to the people? I doubt there would be significantly more land owners, just more land owned by the same people. At least BLM and national forest land is open to anyone for some uses.  The government doesn't fuck up the land terribly often on it's own, it just allows business to fuck up government owned land.  I think we have very different ideas for quality of land, my favorite patches of land are those that are wilderness areas, no economic benefit to the land owner to keep it that way unless they start charging admission.  I think we also differ in that I don't think the earth is here for the benefit of humans, just cause we can make some money off some land and poison other humans little enough in the process to make it profitable doesn't mean we should.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: rhave]
    #19728628 -

Quote:
how is privatizing land giving it back to the people?


because individuals would own it not the government.

Quote:
The government doesn't fuck up the land terribly often on it's own, it just allows business to fuck up government owned land


exactly. This doesn't happen on private land usually, if its government land there's no incentive to preserve the land.

Quote:
I think we have very different ideas for quality of land, my favorite patches of land are those that are wilderness areas, no economic benefit to the land owner to keep it that way unless they start charging admission


I'm a country boy i love undisturbed nature. I just don't think government run land is the only way about it.

Quote:
I think we also differ in that I don't think the earth is here for the benefit of humans, just cause we can make some money off some land and poison other humans little enough in the process to make it profitable doesn't mean we should.


Of course the earth is for the benefit of humans. Just like it is here for the benefit of all other plants and animals as well.

I think you're very confused about what happens when private nature reserves take over.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2386962?uid=3739560&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103712537057

You have to pay for the full article but here's the abstract:
Quote:
Current efforts for habitat protection, based largely on government efforts to establish protected areas, are not keeping pace with biodiversity loss. The conservation community must explore means for in situ protection that supplement existing government efforts. One possibility is the privately owned nature reserve. In this descriptive study a written survey of privately owned nature reserves in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America was undertaken to identify their economic attributes, initial objectives, and factors necessary for attaining those objectives. Data from 32 managers of private reserves revealed that reserves can be a profitable venture. Over half were realizing a profit, and profitability among reserves had risen 21% since 1989. Despite this economic success, they proved to be motivated more by conservation goals than by personal or economic objectives. Overall the respondents ranked management factors more important than geographic, social/political, financial, or stochastic factors for accomplishing reserves' objectives. The presence of "interesting ecological attractions" was rated the single most important factor and those factors relating to government involvement were considered least important. The results show private reserves to be an important albeit little-known example of private-sector involvement in conservation. The results also provide a useful analysis for those interested in private reserves, those currently operating them, and those wishing to establish them.


some of the most beautifully preserved land in the world is private. If you are interested in more reading here are some great resources:

http://environment.research.yale.edu/documents/downloads/0-9/99langholz.pdf

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8339666

http://www.conservacionpatagonica.org/home.htm


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19728798 -

For me the people's land implies that the most people can use it, if you happen to be poor and all the land is privately owned you potentially have access to almost none of it.  Maybe i'd think privatization would be good if land could be privately owned by the plants and animals that live on it.
Private nature reserves can certainly do a good job, but i think most current national forest wouldn't end up being owned by nature reserves but by logging, mining, or other resource extraction companies.  Protected land might be better protected but there'll be far less of it. Domestic ecotourism in the US isn't nearly as large a portion of the economy as it is in sub-Saharan Africa and SA.  I don't think any of those private nature reserves would promote privatizing more public land.
We had a far more libertarian government during the 19th century and it was an awful time to be working class or a non-human creature.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: rhave]
    #19728918 -

Quote:
We had a far more libertarian government during the 19th century and it was an awful time to be working class or a non-human creature.


No we have a cronyism based government.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19728934 -

psyconaught said:
Quote:
We had a far more libertarian government during the 19th century and it was an awful time to be working class or a non-human creature.


No we have a cronyism based government.


Yeah always, why do you think there are politicians that want to deregulate industry?

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: rhave]
    #19729024 -

rhave said:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
We had a far more libertarian government during the 19th century and it was an awful time to be working class or a non-human creature.


No we have a cronyism based government.


Yeah always, why do you think there are politicians that want to deregulate industry?


because more regulation is not indicative of an improvement. Cronyism is corporations in bed with government, not deregulation.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19730185 -

Parks will cease to exist as we know them if they are privatized.  Corporations would make a lot more money if they flood national parks with hotels, supermarkets, and attractions. As well as jacking up prices for everyone.

Government ensures parks stay reasonably well protected from human destruction. They don't make any money, but I'd prefer parks that preserve nature and are inexpensive.  :shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #19730469 -

well there's private ownership and private management. In general privately managed public parks have been better run than government managed parks.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19731540 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Parks will cease to exist as we know them if they are privatized.  Corporations would make a lot more money if they flood national parks with hotels, supermarkets, and attractions. As well as jacking up prices for everyone.

Government ensures parks stay reasonably well protected from human destruction. They don't make any money, but I'd prefer parks that preserve nature and are inexpensive.  :shrug:


Have you been to yellowstone national park? Trash is everywhere tourists flood the trails and many of the animals depend on trash instead of foraging wildly. The government sure has done a good job of preserving nature there :rolleyes:


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #19732221 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
Have you been to yellowstone national park? Trash is everywhere tourists flood the trails and many of the animals depend on trash instead of foraging wildly. The government sure has done a good job of preserving nature there :rolleyes:


This is what I hate about conservative logic.  Funding to national parks (not to mention nearly all Government services) has been drastically cut over the past few decades, and conservatives say these services aren't being managed well.  How about we restore funding so these services can operate like they used to?  9 out of 10 Americans don't think we should be cutting funding to National Parks.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #19732402 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Have you been to yellowstone national park? Trash is everywhere tourists flood the trails and many of the animals depend on trash instead of foraging wildly. The government sure has done a good job of preserving nature there :rolleyes:


This is what I hate about conservative logic.  Funding to national parks (not to mention nearly all Government services) has been drastically cut over the past few decades, and conservatives say these services aren't being managed well.  How about we restore funding so these services can operate like they used to?  9 out of 10 Americans don't think we should be cutting funding to National Parks.


and what i hate about liberal logic is that they think throwing money at a problem is a magic bullet that solves everything. Though funding for national park is one of the things i don't really have a problem with at all.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19732466 -

You know what the difference is between a national park and publically accesible land in New Mexico?

One of them you pay a guy to get past the fence, throw your trash in cans, and shit in a porta-potty.

In the other, there is no fence, it's free, and you shit behind a tree and pack your trash out.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19733068 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Have you been to yellowstone national park? Trash is everywhere tourists flood the trails and many of the animals depend on trash instead of foraging wildly. The government sure has done a good job of preserving nature there :rolleyes:


This is what I hate about conservative logic.  Funding to national parks (not to mention nearly all Government services) has been drastically cut over the past few decades, and conservatives say these services aren't being managed well.  How about we restore funding so these services can operate like they used to?  9 out of 10 Americans don't think we should be cutting funding to National Parks.



:werd:


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #19733108 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Have you been to yellowstone national park? Trash is everywhere tourists flood the trails and many of the animals depend on trash instead of foraging wildly. The government sure has done a good job of preserving nature there :rolleyes:


This is what I hate about conservative logic.  Funding to national parks (not to mention nearly all Government services) has been drastically cut over the past few decades, and conservatives say these services aren't being managed well.  How about we restore funding so these services can operate like they used to?  9 out of 10 Americans don't think we should be cutting funding to National Parks.


There are other much more pressing things to cut funding for I agree but I would still have no problem with private management of parks.


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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19733767 -

psyconaught said:
and what i hate about liberal logic is that they think throwing money at a problem is a magic bullet that solves everything.


Money is necessary for just about every issue (defense, education, infrastructure, etc).  I wouldn't call it magic, but just the way it is.  :shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Do I still count as a libertarian? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #19733800 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
psyconaught said:
and what i hate about liberal logic is that they think throwing money at a problem is a magic bullet that solves everything.


Money is necessary for just about every issue (defense, education, infrastructure, etc).  I wouldn't call it magic, but just the way it is.  :shrug:


of course money is required for things to operate. But more money does not mean a better output. Efficiency with said money is what is important, not the the volume of money itself.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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