XUL said:

XUL said:

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That has absolutely nothing to do with the people who practice psychology for clients and anybody who calls him or herself a counselor.  It is slapdash guesswork

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I wouldn't go that far.

I am sitting next to a stack of books that tell me otherwise and list success rates of certain therapies with references. I can list them but you will either have to buy the book or gain access to a place with published experiments/studies which are the supporting evidence for what the book tells me. I believe the way they track the success of a therapy is through a meta-analysis of many therapies used in controlled settings.

Of course there are always complications with relapse and all, but this is what humanity has to offer at the current time. And from my view the success rates look pretty good.

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Well credentialed guessers.

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The same as a judge and maybe not a jury. Hmph...

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zappaisgod said:

XUL said:

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Do you think psychologists are scientists?

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Yes, some. This is because one receives either a B.S. or a B.A. during an undergraduate education and a M.S. or a M.A. during graduate education, typically.

You seem to have a narrow view of psychology. Maybe you are thinking school counselor or therapist but I can assure you that there is a wide variety of fields a psychologist may go into. Neuropsychology. Social psychology. Behavioral psychology. The list goes on.

Do you think psychologists just pull ideas out of a hat these days? Maybe Freud did a bit of that but today most ideas are backed up with mathematics, statistics, probabilities, and published results. Furthermore there are standards a researcher has to meet in order for the data to even be relevant. Such as a correlation coefficients of + or - 0.5 or more.

And then you have those individuals who studied biology during their bachelor's degree, neuroscience during their master's degree, and (psychology) cognitive behavioral therapy during doctoral studies. What does that make them?

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Well credentialed guessers.


I have a degree in psychology.  It is a BA from 1979.  There was no BS or MS in psych then because they knew social sciences weren't science.  I took as science heavy a curriculum as you could possibly take but it didn't matter  It was a BA.

Now I might accept that there are people doing research in psychology who are actual scientists.  That has absolutely nothing to do with the people who practice psychology for clients and anybody who calls him or herself a counselor.  It is slapdash guesswork.  They are no more effective than priests or other shamans.

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And I know dozens of people, peers and children, who have gone to see psychologists, often for years, and have received exactly no more relief than people who see priests or wise friends.

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tymoteusz3 said:

zappaisgod said:

XUL said:

Quote:

Do you think psychologists are scientists?

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Yes, some. This is because one receives either a B.S. or a B.A. during an undergraduate education and a M.S. or a M.A. during graduate education, typically.

You seem to have a narrow view of psychology. Maybe you are thinking school counselor or therapist but I can assure you that there is a wide variety of fields a psychologist may go into. Neuropsychology. Social psychology. Behavioral psychology. The list goes on.

Do you think psychologists just pull ideas out of a hat these days? Maybe Freud did a bit of that but today most ideas are backed up with mathematics, statistics, probabilities, and published results. Furthermore there are standards a researcher has to meet in order for the data to even be relevant. Such as a correlation coefficients of + or - 0.5 or more.

And then you have those individuals who studied biology during their bachelor's degree, neuroscience during their master's degree, and (psychology) cognitive behavioral therapy during doctoral studies. What does that make them?

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Well credentialed guessers.


I have a degree in psychology.  It is a BA from 1979.  There was no BS or MS in psych then because they knew social sciences weren't science.  I took as science heavy a curriculum as you could possibly take but it didn't matter  It was a BA.

Now I might accept that there are people doing research in psychology who are actual scientists.  That has absolutely nothing to do with the people who practice psychology for clients and anybody who calls him or herself a counselor.  It is slapdash guesswork.  They are no more effective than priests or other shamans.

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Newsflash: Science has changed immensely since 1979.
Also psychology is not slapdash guesswork. CBT, which is the leading psychological treatment used, has nothing to do with guesswork or analyzing, like you see in the movies.

It's amusing that you claim to have taken so many scientific courses, yet your argument fails to acknowledge any studies or reports that contradict your notions set in stone, essentially going against the scientific method.

It's amusing that for someone who claims to have taken so many scientific courses, you fail to think by the scientific method and write off numerous studies while claiming that

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XUL said:

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And I know dozens of people, peers and children, who have gone to see psychologists, often for years, and have received exactly no more relief than people who see priests or wise friends.

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This is hard to comment on.

How are you measuring the difference of effects between those people who have visited psychologists and those (maybe the same people) who have visited priests or wise friends. I am guessing you measured the dichotomy by listening to accounts from your friends.

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zappaisgod said:

I am going to repeat an earlier post.  I have known dozens of people, peers and children of peers, who have spent time with psychologists.  Not one has received any kind of discernible benefit that could not also have been achieved by either a shaman or a wise friend.  I also am fully aware and have been told by practicing psychiatrists that they do indeed pretty much just guess when they prescribe drugs and adjust as needed. 

They fully admit that they do not know what they are doing.  By the way, behavior therapy is one of the only worthwhile disciplines but it has limits.  Let me guess, most of the people you know who see shrinks have addiction issues

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I also am fully aware and have been told by practicing psychiatrists that they do indeed pretty much just guess when they prescribe drugs and adjust as needed.

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tymoteusz3 said:

zappaisgod said:

I am going to repeat an earlier post.  I have known dozens of people, peers and children of peers, who have spent time with psychologists.  Not one has received any kind of discernible benefit that could not also have been achieved by either a shaman or a wise friend.  I also am fully aware and have been told by practicing psychiatrists that they do indeed pretty much just guess when they prescribe drugs and adjust as needed. 

They fully admit that they do not know what they are doing.  By the way, behavior therapy is one of the only worthwhile disciplines but it has limits.  Let me guess, most of the people you know who see shrinks have addiction issues

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Oh I forgot, your limited experience is indicative of how it is, science be damned.
Also you are confusing psychology and psychiatry. They are two very different areas of study. Psychiatrist attempt to fix mental issues using drugs - psychologists attempt to do the same through behaviour therapy, of which CBT is the leading one as it has many studies showing it's usefulness. Healing the problem is better than masking it - however both disciplines play an important role. For someone who is schizophrenic or bi-polar, they need medication to overcome their issues in addition to counselling. But issues are always better healed if they can be - and many can be healed or at least have the patient able to handle the issues through CBT and related therapy.

And why would you think that people I know who have been helped by psychology have addiction issues? Projection?
Besides which, my personal experiences are not a factor hear, as just like yours, they are limited.

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I'm not confusing psychologists and psychiatrists at all and did in fact make a specific distinction.  Read much?  But you don't seem to understand the difference yourself.  Psychiatrists do not "attempt to fix mental issues using drugs".  They just can prescribe if it is appropriate.  They do not "try to". 

You sure seem excited about CBT. 

Your experiences are a lot more limited than mine.

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Damn guys. Stop fighting. We should be discussing this matter nicely.

All this bickering takes away from anything useful.

XUL said:

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I also am fully aware and have been told by practicing psychiatrists that they do indeed pretty much just guess when they prescribe drugs and adjust as needed.

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That's not what I am told by a psychologist the other day in class. That is why doctor shopping is a smart thing to do. Some doctors just want money, but some doctors take their work seriously.

My professor was explaining the biological perspective of the major depressive disorder/persistent depressive disorder the other day and he told me that the first thing he usually asks for before therapy is a blood test so he can rule out 'major depressive disorder/persistent depressive disorder lookalikes'. Some lookalikes he listed were:

.post-partum depression

.PMS

.Hypothyroidism

.Hypoglycemia

.etc...


The idea is to narrow down the situation and find as much as information as possible. There is certainly some professional discretion here, but it's not a big guess out of nowhere.

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An educated guessing game but their first choice is very rarely right

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and remember empathy is putting the shoe on the other foot.

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