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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18917657 -

You can say whatever you like.  Doesn't change any of the points being made here.


Since when is death a "he"? :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/01/13 08:37 PM)

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18917808 -

Ask don Juan


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18917840 -

The weather is matched to my cognition, I'm the imagination of myself in the mirror, there seem to be fear tests associated with leaving the body, I feel like I'm part of God, Nature is profoundly beautiful and life is awesome.

Why should I be worrying about death again?


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
    #18917852 -

No reason at all.  It will come for you soon enough.  Icelander can live in fear but we don't have to.


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18917856 -

zappaisgod said:
Ask don Juan



Don't think he ever said it was a he. :lol:  You're romanticizing death just like Castaneda was.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18917865 -

zappaisgod said:
No reason at all.  It will come for you soon enough.  Icelander can live in fear but we don't have to.



Yeah you and Circastes  I totally believe you guys. What a great team.:thumbup:

Circastes you don't even believe death exists, remember. :wink:  You're an immortalist remember?:laugh:


Actually I don't fear it either cause I was saved at 15 and Jesus is going to take me up to heaven to live forever with the angles and learn to play the harp and all that really cool shit.  :satansmoking:



--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/01/13 09:47 PM)

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18918001 -

"without the threat of death there's no reason to live at all" - Marilyn Manson

LSD and Mushrooms and Pot and overthinking things. ya for all of those. distractions!1

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18919265 -

Icelander said:
If DA were not the underlying cause of our anxieties what do you think is and why?


Why does there have to be an underlying cause for all our anxieties? That was my main point.

What is a underlying cause of our anxieties? I don't know. I don't think there has to be one for all of them. :shrug:

PocketLady said:
Ok, so people aren't born with existential death anxiety, but they must be born with biological death anxiety?  The fear may not be conscious, but it's there instinctually surely? 

The underlying fear of everything has to be death.  It has to be.  That is the purpose of fear, to keep us alive.  The question is, is it that we simply misplace our fear onto things that aren't really a matter of survival?  Or is it that the  all things we fear ultimately lead back to death anxiety?  Are these two things the same thing? 

I'm not sure to be honest, I'm not even sure which corner I'm fighting any more *confused*  :jimcarreysplit:


According to my reasoning, I'd say people aren't born with the existential version.

Yeah, I'd agree and say that people are born with biological DA. That's just who we are -- animals. That's why we're here today because ancestors were able to keep living.

I can see your argument, but I still think it's short sighted to say that it is the underlying fear. It could be -- I don't deny that, but I think that's a big jump. If it helps one's death anxiety to say that the underlying fear of it all is death, than so be it. (Maybe it helps mine to say it isn't? :lol: I don't know.)

I'm not really concerned with biological death anxiety. Why would we want to try and control something that can't really be controlled? I'm mostly concerned with what we are conscious of, and what we can control, and on that note, I think it's possible to accept death in the existential way.


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Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
    #18919497 -

Why does there have to be an underlying cause for all our anxieties? That was my main point.

There doesn't have to be one and may not be one.  I was asking for ideas on what other things could cause anxiety and could not be possibly traced to fear of impermanence or death. 

I haven't heard any that are convincing to me but I'm hardly saying there isn't any. I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't any. 

Any ideas?

Here's and interesting article on a possible connection between pain and DA.  Seems to be a legit study. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/tylenol-death-anxiety-existential-dread_n_3101606.html


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/02/13 04:58 AM)

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18919514 -

Robert Langs distinguishes three types of death anxiety:[3]
Predatory death anxiety
Predatory death anxiety arises from the fear of being harmed.[4] It is the most basic and oldest[5] form of death anxiety, with its origins stemming from the first unicellular organisms’ set of adaptive resources. Unicellular organisms have receptors that have evolved to react to external dangers and they also have self-protective, responsive mechanisms made to guarantee survival in the face of chemical and physical forms of attack or danger.[6] In humans, this form of death anxiety is evoked by a variety of danger situations that put the recipient at risk or threatens his or her survival.[7] These traumas may be psychological and/or physical.[7] Predatory death anxieties mobilize an individual’s adaptive resources and lead to fight or flight, active efforts to combat the danger or attempts to escape the threatening situation.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety_(psychology)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18922300 -

Icelander said:
zappaisgod said:
No reason at all.  It will come for you soon enough.  Icelander can live in fear but we don't have to.



Yeah you and Circastes  I totally believe you guys. What a great team.:thumbup:

Circastes you don't even believe death exists, remember. :wink:  You're an immortalist remember?:laugh:


Actually I don't fear it either cause I was saved at 15 and Jesus is going to take me up to heaven to live forever with the angles and learn to play the harp and all that really cool shit.  :satansmoking:




I had two cancers with high fatality potential.  I was not afraid of anything except the fucking shots and that includes not waking up from the table.  It wasn't just faith in my doctors or anything.  I was just all C'est la vie.  Believe me or not.


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18922364 -

If you weren't afraid of dying, then why take the scary shots at all? Wasn't the point of subjecting yourself to that pain done in order to have a fighting chance?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18922366 -

whoa

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
    #18922858 -

Kickle said:
If you weren't afraid of dying, then why take the scary shots at all? Wasn't the point of subjecting yourself to that pain done in order to have a fighting chance?


I still have work to do but if I can't so be it.  Not fearing death is not the same as seeking it.


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18922895 -

Icelander said:
Why does there have to be an underlying cause for all our anxieties? That was my main point.

There doesn't have to be one and may not be one.  I was asking for ideas on what other things could cause anxiety and could not be possibly traced to fear of impermanence or death. 

I haven't heard any that are convincing to me but I'm hardly saying there isn't any. I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't any. 

Any ideas?

Here's and interesting article on a possible connection between pain and DA.  Seems to be a legit study. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/tylenol-death-anxiety-existential-dread_n_3101606.html


I read that article just the other day! I was fascinated by it. Cool stuff. :smile:

As for other things that could cause anxiety? An example that comes into my head is someone who's anxious to provide for a family. I think about a father who is anxious to pay the bills for the week because they want their son to be okay and live a good life.

I also think of an example of anxiety that arises when one sees someone falling into dementia or suffering from a case of catatonic schizophrenia. Imagine someone who is watching someone like their brother or sister suffering from these illnesses. I don't feel there's actual death anxiety for the person who's watching it because I feel that their mind is occupied with concern for that other person. It's an act of compassion and empathy, rather than the immediate feeling of one's own death anxiety. I'm not a neuroscientist, but I believe that mirror neurons fire off in this case, that allows us to put ourselves in other people's shoes to understand them.

And what about the case of people who are retarded? Or have severe brain damage? Do they experience death anxiety? Can they even comprehend death anxiety? Are their anxieties linked to death? In some cases, do these types of people even have anxieties? (I'd hope they wouldn't, because I'd say one would've lucked out if they didn't have any anxieties.) Are they even aware of their motives at all? I can think of some people who are retarded, and I believe that they don't have death anxiety or wonder about things like that. But ultimately, who knows?

I remember being a kid, and feeling sad for those who were mentally retarded, and I remember asking my mom why they were like that and what they did to deserve a bad life. She answered that maybe the retarded person was completely blissed out, didn't even know that they were different, and lead the happiest life that I could ever possible imagine. For arguments sake, the opposite could be true, but I think it's safe to assume that there's at least one person out there in which where this case applies.

Also, from that Robert Lang that you quoted, I found an article by him that was really well written breaking up Death Anxiety like I did, although he did it much better and used three forms:

http://www.escp.org/three_forms_death_anxiety.html


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
    #18922979 -

I can think of ways that all those things can relate to or remind one of their mortality.  But as stated that doesn't mean there is an actual connection in reality in the same way that you can interpret the bible to mean just about anything you want.  Still I think it does have a connection.  For instance failure to provide for a family in our early history meant sure death. 

Anyway to each his own belief on this issue.  I've laid out my case for this in some pretty in depth and long debates in the past 8 years here.    I'm convinced that DA is the major player in our lives and actions and I've been pretty open to being convinced otherwise imo. But who knows.

The only argument I get from most is the adamant claim that they have no fear of death.  Well that's hardly reliable evidence but as I say to each his/her own.

I found your link info when I was doing a little research yesterday. :thumbup:

Edited by Icelander (10/02/13 09:17 PM)

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18923208 -

zappaisgod said:
Kickle said:
If you weren't afraid of dying, then why take the scary shots at all? Wasn't the point of subjecting yourself to that pain done in order to have a fighting chance?


I still have work to do but if I can't so be it.  Not fearing death is not the same as seeking it.


You don't have to seek death to want to avoid what you find scary. Death was just an alternative. But pain was preferrable it seems :shrug:

For what its worth I think its commendable you found some peace in what I'm guessing was a very trying set of events :thumbup:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
    #18923272 -

In total it really wasn't that bad.  The radioactive dye injections hurt like a bastard and I was sore for a few weeks.  I just can't stand to sit still while somebody jabs me with a needle.  I'm fine with accidental pain, I'm a carpenter, little shit happens all the time that hurts far more than the needles (except the radioactive ones.  They were wasp stings) but I just fucking hate sitting there and letting it happen.  Sends my blood pressure through the roof.  I had to try three times to do an autologous blood donation because of it.  And then the morons didn't store the blood properly so it got tossed.


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
    #18924139 -

Here's and example surrounding DA from my own life.  Now after hearing this you might ask me why I believe in DA?  This was in Seattle many years ago.  I had a gun pulled on me in the parking lot of a bar I was at. At the time when I faced that gun I had no fear for my life, or after for that matter. Logically I knew there was a possibility of being shot and killed.  Still I did not back down from this person or beg for my life or think of running.  Why was this?  It was because I "knew" that nothing bad could happen to me.  I was convinced that I was not going to be killed.  Logically there was no reason for that.  But I had convinced myself that no harm could come to me.  I was fearless and later told people who saw it that I was ready for anything that could happen to me.

It was not that I wasn't afraid of dying because I know I do have that fear in some instances.  It was that the shields of confidence and belief I had going were able to block out that fear effectively.  This is just as Becker describes it and the way shields work to prevent us feeling DA every moment of our lives as you know because I believe you took the time to read his book and theories on the subject.

Many people can take a threat to their life calmly imo because they are convinced that whatever is threatening them at the time is not going to be able to kill them.  Yet Becker was able to convince me that I did have DA and it showed in many of my actions and beliefs and that these were operating mostly on  unconscious levels.  Now with that awareness I've made many  those things conscious and know I have DA.  I also believe it has less of an effect on me than it used to.  I have to wonder if it has anything to do with the process of looking at my own anxieties and fears in this area?  It's going to be different for every person.  I have a friend who faints at the sight of blood or small amount of pain in their self or others.  (I can take a ton more pain than many people I know.)  I have to laugh at their fear.  Yet I can be frightened by things that don't scare her seemingly at all.  Go figure. :shrug:

Edited by Icelander (10/03/13 03:09 AM)

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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18926681 -

Thanks for sharing that story. That sounds real intense.

But one thing that I think about, is how you reflect on the story, and then come to the conclusion that it was DA. And, in retrospect, you may be totally right. If we look through Becker's lens, we can say that you didn't have overt of conscious DA, but that it was there, and it just manifested itself in another way.

Becker's notions of DA and having people throw up shields to block the awesomeness of the cosmos is convincing. If I remember correctly, I haven't read Denial of Death in a long time, Becker writes that it couldn't be any other way because of years and years of evolution. We aren't supposed to die, and it couldn't be any other way.

Another way of thinking about Death Anxiety is going back to the two ways that I broke it up. I still hold that it's possible to overcome existential Death Anxiety, but it may be impossible to overcome the biological one. I mean, I think you mentioned it earlier in the thread... thinking about it while sitting in the comfort in your home thinking about death isn't the greatest thing, but it's not terrible. But it seems we can really learn to accept it.


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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