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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Life is just a distraction
#18906901 - 09/29/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know the whole DA thing has been done to death in this form (ha, see what I did there?) but I'm going to post anyway.
I took a couple of hits of LSZ last night and when I was peaking I got annoyed because I was having loads of sinus pressure and was trying to distract myself from it. Anyway, then it hit me that everything we do in a life is just an elaborate distraction from death. We try to avoid it and avoid thinking about constantly in everything we do.
When people talk about DA I've always understood it and thought it made sense, but last night I felt like I really "got it". Anyway, I pissed myself laughing at the time, thought it was really funny, but today it leaves me feeling somewhat depressed. I'm sure I'll get over it though and will find a way to distract myself again soon.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady] 1
#18906970 - 09/29/13 12:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said: I know the whole DA thing has been done to death in this form (ha, see what I did there?) but I'm going to post anyway.
I took a couple of hits of LSZ last night and when I was peaking I got annoyed because I was having loads of sinus pressure and was trying to distract myself from it. Anyway, then it hit me that everything we do in a life is just an elaborate distraction from death. We try to avoid it and avoid thinking about constantly in everything we do.
When people talk about DA I've always understood it and thought it made sense, but last night I felt like I really "got it". Anyway, I pissed myself laughing at the time, thought it was really funny, but today it leaves me feeling somewhat depressed. I'm sure I'll get over it though and will find a way to distract myself again soon.
Bingo! (ha another convert ) Be prepared for a possible shit storm. Once you grok this in fullness there is no guarantee that you will be able to really distract yourself anymore. Let's really really hope you can. 
Interesting how this happens with psychedelics. In the old days I thrilled myself with visions of cosmic connections and world peace and other lovely shit. Then one day it hit me just like it hit you. All of a sudden I realized that that early psychedelic awakening was only part of the equation and the dark side must be considered before one thinks they have really awakened to this mystery.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18907022 - 09/29/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yep that pretty much sums up my journey so far.
I have a feeling you are right Ice, and I'm already wishing I took the blue pill...! Maybe it's not so bad though. Kinda relieves the pressure of expectations and achievements etc.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18907057 - 09/29/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Their are some upsides but you will have to fight hard to win them. Best of luck warrior, from what I know of you here you will put up a good fight.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18907078 - 09/29/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Interesting how this happens with psychedelics.
I think it's the alternate perception of symbolism in life that creates the nakedness on psychedelics. Nakedness is genetically speaking vulnerability.
This is why I struggle pissing when people are around me. Deeply integrated mental "flaw", obviously physical pain and my mind goes hand in hand.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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circastes
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I think death anxiety assumes way too much. It also shows a strong ignorance of the complexities of life, if you think it's all just a distraction... no offence but you'd have to be pretty depressed not to be able to enjoy your own abilities, the abilities of others and the general flow of human life.
Go out and get some coffee, have a meal, check out the stores, look at the people living life.
Because it's all just God hiding from itself.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
#18908095 - 09/29/13 05:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Because it's all just God hiding from itself.
This is the same bullshit mental masturbation that the hippies were spouting out their asses. Where's your evidence? DA makes a lot more sense imo and with some evidence. In fact imo saying things that are comforting as truth when one really has no evidence speaks more for the validity of DA than the nonsense speculation you usually bring to this forum.
And aren't you the guy who spends most of his time in the house due to anxiety?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18908258 - 09/29/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You just remember who you are... Maybe The Perennial Philosophy is good evidence?
I have had a recent recurrence of anxiety for no reason, I don't "spend most of my time in the house" because of anxiety, I just recently have been feeling shit.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
#18908325 - 09/29/13 06:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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For no reason? Maybe that loving god just wants to fuck you up. 
Which part of that philosophy is your evidence?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18908381 - 09/29/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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A distraction from what, exactly?
--------------------
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hTx
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18908703 - 09/29/13 07:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Perhaps death is just a distraction from life. Face it, we are all going to die someday, accept it. The fear of death seems to be more a fear of life. Death is the end of living, and since you will not be alive to remember death, what exactly are we supposedly anxious about?
At the moment death is, I will not be, therefore it is illogical to fear death. Seeking to avoid something is not really DA. Since life is the opposite of death, I would say it seeks to repel the inevitable indeed. Yet, this rebellion against death isn't due to anxiety or fear. It is due to will. The will to live is not the same as afraid to die. To feel one is distracting oneself from life or that all of life is a distraction from death sounds a lot like life anxiety, imo.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
(:



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx]
#18908721 - 09/29/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The fear, the anxiety lies in UA. Unknown Anxiety. Uncertainness of situations presented leads to all anxiety. Death anxiety being a more perfect manifestation of anxiety of the unknown, since death and what may or may not happen afterwards is certainly uncertain.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx]
#18908842 - 09/29/13 08:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Doesn't matter if it is illogical it's what humans do. BTW humans do a lot of seemingly illogical things.
what exactly are we supposedly anxious about?
What we are anxious about is impermanence. The personality structure or ego if you will cannot envision itself as non existent without great stress or anxiety on a conscious and/or unconscious level. (According to Ernest Becker - Denial of death) So unless we can create some belief that on some level we go on, such as reincarnation, heaven, nirvana, being part of everything etc, or some other type of distraction (shield) we get anxious. Most or much of this is on an unconscious level according to Becker and TMT folk but can be seen in the actions and words of the individual with serious observation.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx]
#18908899 - 09/29/13 08:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: The fear, the anxiety lies in UA. Unknown Anxiety. Uncertainness of situations presented leads to all anxiety. Death anxiety being a more perfect manifestation of anxiety of the unknown, since death and what may or may not happen afterwards is certainly uncertain.
Certainly part of the equation. If we actually knew what death was we would know whether we should be anxious or not.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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hTx
(:



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18909083 - 09/29/13 09:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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"So unless we can create some belief that on some level we go on, such as reincarnation, heaven, nirvana, being part of everything etc, or some other type of distraction (shield) we get anxious. Most or much of this is on an unconscious level according to Becker and TMT folk but can be seen in the actions and words of the individual with serious observation. "
We are apart of everything, by its very definition, a part must have something to do with everything. That is hardly a shield against death anxiety, more a truth that ego cannot come to realize because it is in our egos that we distinguish ourselves as separate beings; Fear and anxiety are shields to maintain the ego or persona. The belief and faith in the maps of unknown reality (heaven, nirvana, reincarnation) are what we use to break the shield and liberate the self to operate outside of ego and the anxiety it creates, if only just for a bit.
I will argue that this is the real reason why these maps were created and why they became popular and stayed that way. They provide comfort that death is perhaps not so unknown after-all. Even this traces back to fear (anxiety) of the unknown, versus fear of impermanence. I won't be so difficult as to say impermanence isn't something we fear, nor that the inevitable truth of it likely causes much anxiety, but I will say this...
Facing the truth of the inevitableness of death and accepting it is entirely possible. You say that the ego cannot envision its non-existence... I say that it can, and that it is precisely for this reason that it creates fear and anxiety because non-existence is unknown. Even in basic psychiatry we have theories about ego, how we believe it to be us, and that there is more to us than ego alone.
I feel this is why MAPS is having success in treating death anxiety in terminal patients with psychedelics, because psychedelics can put one into unfamiliar territory and with therapy or guidance, one can face the unknown, shields down and be unafraid, perhaps even realize that we must have unknowns to know anything.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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CosmicJoke
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx]
#18909198 - 09/29/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh, I think there's an obvious connection between death and stress. Its purpose used to be saving us. It used to be 3 minutes of screaming terror on the the savannah after which it's either over with or you're over with The real question is us and how we've changed. To an extent I think you're right, we're incredibly disassociated now from any real risk of actually dying, but our anxiety still has its roots in death. Now our anxiety is very much a social psychological factor.. I don't think that we're inherently existentially anxious about death, this shit all comes from how we relate with each other imho.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Withinity
Untitled


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18909203 - 09/29/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Its all a big one in a little one, in a bigger and a smaller one , this shit never ends just like an Onion the layers are virtually the same but once you peel them all away you have nothing left! De De Deathly
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Edited by Withinity (09/29/13 09:51 PM)
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Memories



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18909219 - 09/29/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
PocketLady said: I know the whole DA thing has been done to death in this form (ha, see what I did there?) but I'm going to post anyway.
I took a couple of hits of LSZ last night and when I was peaking I got annoyed because I was having loads of sinus pressure and was trying to distract myself from it. Anyway, then it hit me that everything we do in a life is just an elaborate distraction from death. We try to avoid it and avoid thinking about constantly in everything we do.
When people talk about DA I've always understood it and thought it made sense, but last night I felt like I really "got it". Anyway, I pissed myself laughing at the time, thought it was really funny, but today it leaves me feeling somewhat depressed. I'm sure I'll get over it though and will find a way to distract myself again soon.
Bingo! (ha another convert ) Be prepared for a possible shit storm. Once you grok this in fullness there is no guarantee that you will be able to really distract yourself anymore. Let's really really hope you can. 
Interesting how this happens with psychedelics. In the old days I thrilled myself with visions of cosmic connections and world peace and other lovely shit. Then one day it hit me just like it hit you. All of a sudden I realized that that early psychedelic awakening was only part of the equation and the dark side must be considered before one thinks they have really awakened to this mystery.
I have a lot of trouble distracting myself. I feel like I'm on my deathbed. Everyone is on their deathbed, but I really don't think everyone feels as if it's true. Most that know it's true tend to ignore it.
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LSDXM
What Doth Life?



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady] 1
#18909261 - 09/29/13 10:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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OP, I've had the same experience; For me though, it's usually about muscle tension or back pain and the inability to find a comfortable position. I'm struck with the thought that one can never truly be comfortable until they're dead. Until then they're constantly moving, adjusting, breathing, or otherwise in flux. Life is fluctuation and movement, death is not. So for me, I'm actually chasing death. I'm chasing comfort. What really happens, though, is that I just fall asleep. As often happens on psychedelics, I made a massive existential issue out of the minutiae of my daily life.
What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.
I really don't give a shit if any part of me lives on after I die or not. I've actually spent a lot of time being horrified of the idea of life after death because of the realization that if I were to be conscious when I die, and since I'm dead I won't need to sleep, I'll NEVER Be able to truly relax because I'll never be able to stop thinking, my inner monologue will never fucking stop. That's what scares me. I view life as the pursuit of physical mental and emotional satisfaction, and that's what I work for and seek while I'm here. When I'm no longer alive, this pursuit will thankfully end. I couldn't imagine a more perfect scenario.
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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong
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NetDiver
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
#18909369 - 09/29/13 10:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know it's quoted often, but I don't consider it cliche:
"And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Nietzsche
I think this quote is related to the OP.
Me, I was in a staring contest with the void and we both started laughing.
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LSDXM
What Doth Life?



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: NetDiver]
#18909454 - 09/29/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Considering that the abyss is made of the same shit as you, it's sort of always staring at you (this operates under the assumption that any "abyss" that may exist must exist within/as part of the uni/multiverse we currently occupy).
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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong
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Kickle
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
#18909469 - 09/29/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Krash Kharma said: What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.
I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?
It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.
I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.
That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.
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NetDiver
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
#18909537 - 09/29/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, we are fighting against death, but only in part. After we reproduce, it doesn't really matter to evolution if we die or not. Certain animals (mosquitoes, for instance) lay huge amounts of eggs because many, many of their offspring will be swiftly killed. Some animals are effectively immortal; if it were advantageous for us, we could have developed extraordinary regenerative capabilities, but we haven't since we don't need to stay alive forever, we just need to stay alive long enough to fuck and make more of ourselves.
Hell, some species eat their mate immediately after mating. I would say we're as much running towards sex as away from death.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady] 1
#18909590 - 09/30/13 12:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I feel that anyone can readjust their lenses with a new world view, and find evidence for it. I mean, it could be true, but that's totally jumping to a conclusion, and of course, your findings would be be rationalized to fit into this new world view and it'll be affirmed. I'm not saying it's false exactly, I'm just saying, people tend to convince themselves of lots of things.
Trying to narrow a whole lot of human activities into one motive can be short sighted. Things seems to be too complex to have it boiled down to one drive. I'm not denying DA either, but I'm just saying if you look out into the world with that one scope, you'll find things for it and rationalize them to fall into place that way too. I just think we should be skeptical of reductionist views.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18909658 - 09/30/13 12:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think if you really believe in death, you haven't really seen the value of life and the depth of experience in it, and the complexity of merely being conscious. The world is constantly changing around you and your mind is constantly changing, and the two interact. With a bit of luck you get to see the world in a new way every day. With this in mind, and the beauty of Nature in the light of a high quality consciousness, it seems there are no reasons to assume anything is wrong at all.
I guess if you think of the world as science thinks of it, still, as inert, meaningless, non-telelogical, then of course you're worried. But all you have to do is investigate it yourself and gradually come to see that it's going to all be alright... there is just a twist to it all, a certain strangeness, even sacredness.
In short, for me, if asked about life I would say I don't know much but so far it's all looking pretty good, I think it's going to be alright.
The Perennial Philosophy is evidence that many people throughout the ages have seen God as the Self.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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hTx
(:



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: NetDiver]
#18909685 - 09/30/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Living is not the same as fighting against death. Living in fear of death is fighting against death.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
#18909686 - 09/30/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said: I think if you really believe in death, you haven't really seen the value of life and the depth of experience in it, and the complexity of merely being conscious.
What? I didn't understand this at all. I believe in death, therefore, I haven't seen the value of life and the depth of experience that life has to offer?
Quote:
I guess if you think of the world as science thinks of it, still, as inert, meaningless, non-telelogical, then of course you're worried. But all you have to do is investigate it yourself and gradually come to see that it's going to all be alright... there is just a twist to it all, a certain strangeness, even sacredness.
I'm pretty sure that "science" doesn't think of the world is meaningless. It just investigates the world. It doesn't have an opinion on the matter.
Quote:
In short, for me, if asked about life I would say I don't know much but so far it's all looking pretty good, I think it's going to be alright.
The Perennial Philosophy is evidence that many people throughout the ages have seen God as the Self.
I'm glad it's good for you. For others it isn't that good, but I'm glad all's well for you.
And the Perennial Philosophy isn't evidence. It's a stance/view that argues for something. If you have evidence that points towards it, then cool. What's your evidence?
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18909739 - 09/30/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
r72rock said:
Quote:
circastes said: I think if you really believe in death, you haven't really seen the value of life and the depth of experience in it, and the complexity of merely being conscious.
What? I didn't understand this at all. I believe in death, therefore, I haven't seen the value of life and the depth of experience that life has to offer?
Quote:
I guess if you think of the world as science thinks of it, still, as inert, meaningless, non-telelogical, then of course you're worried. But all you have to do is investigate it yourself and gradually come to see that it's going to all be alright... there is just a twist to it all, a certain strangeness, even sacredness.
I'm pretty sure that "science" doesn't think of the world is meaningless. It just investigates the world. It doesn't have an opinion on the matter.
Quote:
In short, for me, if asked about life I would say I don't know much but so far it's all looking pretty good, I think it's going to be alright.
The Perennial Philosophy is evidence that many people throughout the ages have seen God as the Self.
I'm glad it's good for you. For others it isn't that good, but I'm glad all's well for you.
And the Perennial Philosophy isn't evidence. It's a stance/view that argues for something. If you have evidence that points towards it, then cool. What's your evidence?
If you think it all ends at death, you surely haven't seen the value of life. This can't all be for nothing.
I don't know how to communicate or share my evidence, given that it's subjective, ie. how do I prove to you that I see a different world all the time? Different meaning in it altogether...
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx]
#18910044 - 09/30/13 05:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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That is hardly a shield against death anxiety,
It certainly can be. I know this because it is for me. Just knowing I am part of the great unknowable brings my ego some comfort and lessens my fear of my individual impermanence. I constantly, when my fears of being alone and vunerable arise, tell myself I cannot be alone and and am part of the giant family of creation.
Now I'm not ready to totally agree with Becker that death anxiety cannot under any circumstances be overcome. However it is very very rare indeed and the only evidence for it I have ever seen and believe is in the terminally ill. Those very close to death. I do wonder about this and what the process is and why when we are very close to our actual end is it that our death anxiety can be made to possibly lessen dramatically? (it could be an energy issue)
I've heard tons of kids however telling me they have no fears of death after taking psychedelics and after getting to know them by word or deed can see it's not be true at all. As soon as they really have a close call with their mortality all that great shit goes out the window. I can easy, from the safety of my nice comfy computer chair tell myself I'm not fearing my impermanence. Yet just put a little blood in my stool or put me in any one of my many anxiety provoking situations and I feel that fear. It's still there. That doesn't mean however I've made zero headway against that fear in my lifetime.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
#18910045 - 09/30/13 05:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you think it all ends at death, you surely haven't seen the value of life. This can't all be for nothing.
Death anxiety 101 imo. Thanks for the great example. Here we have someone claiming to know the unknowable. Why else but to placate themselves or should I say their fears?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cyclohexylamine
Turn on, Tune in, Drop out



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 14,327
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18910056 - 09/30/13 05:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: That is hardly a shield against death anxiety,
It certainly can be. I know this because it is for me. Just knowing I am part of the great unknowable brings my ego some comfort and lessens my fear of my individual impermanence. I constantly, when my fears of being alone and vunerable arise, tell myself I cannot be alone and and am part of the giant family of creation.
Now I'm not ready to totally agree with Becker that death anxiety cannot under any circumstances be overcome. However it is very very rare indeed and the only evidence for it I have ever seen and believe is in the terminally ill. Those very close to death. I do wonder about this and what the process is and why when we are very close to our actual end is it that our death anxiety can be made to possibly lessen dramatically? (it could be an energy issue)
I've heard tons of kids however telling me they have no fears of death after taking psychedelics and after getting to know them by word or deed can see it's not be true at all. As soon as they really have a close call with their mortality all that great shit goes out the window. I can easy, from the safety of my nice comfy computer chair tell myself I'm not fearing my impermanence. Yet just put a little blood in my stool or put me in any one of my many anxiety provoking situations and I feel that fear. It's still there. That doesn't mean however I've made zero headway against that fear in my lifetime.
It could very well be that many of the terminally ill put up their own shields to hide the fact that they are dying - certainly I feel this to be the case in many instances.
--------------------
You are not special
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Well we are certainly going to get to find out. I'm on the edge now, all my family is dying by disease one by one. I've lost at least a third in the last 6 years or so. They all suffered from death anxiety right to the end and it expressed itself in some unpleasant ways.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18910146 - 09/30/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way.. I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being. I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills. Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way. The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18910234 - 09/30/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way
Absolutely, there are as many variations as their are people to some degree. I'm more like you, especially since it's starting to happen to me now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LSDXM
What Doth Life?



Registered: 08/20/08
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
#18910611 - 09/30/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Krash Kharma said: What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.
I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?
It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.
I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.
That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.
Death does not equal pain. Much of what you described is avoidance of pain rather than death.
The opposite of pleasure isn't death, it's pain. We try to mend our illnesses because they cause us pain, which make it hard to live. Fighting against cancer is fighting against death. Fighting against a skinned knee, however, is fighting against pain. So what are you saying, that if I really wasn't scared of death, I'd let my wounds fester?
It's important to note that the drive for pleasure (and thus the avoidance of pain) is in us long before we're even aware of the concept of death.
Edited by LSDXM (09/30/13 10:26 AM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18910639 - 09/30/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way.. I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being. I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills. Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way. The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....
All that stuff, worrying about medical bills, future pain/discomfort, looking to religion and so on, is only a surface level reaction to DA IMO. That stuff varies from person to person a lot, but what's inside is most likely the same for everyone, what the schizo's and trippers and meth heads see and that is truly a hidden cauldron of madness, with all kinds of venomous, fanged and foreign, even alien creatures waiting to cut out your insides, those "cold grinding grizzly bear jaws hot on your heels".
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Grapefruit]
#18910643 - 09/30/13 10:12 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
#18910918 - 09/30/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Krash Kharma said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Krash Kharma said: What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.
I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?
It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.
I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.
That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.
Death does not equal pain. Much of what you described is avoidance of pain rather than death.
The opposite of pleasure isn't death, it's pain. We try to mend our illnesses because they cause us pain, which make it hard to live. Fighting against cancer is fighting against death. Fighting against a skinned knee, however, is fighting against pain. So what are you saying, that if I really wasn't scared of death, I'd let my wounds fester?
It's important to note that the drive for pleasure (and thus the avoidance of pain) is in us long before we're even aware of the concept of death.
It may be that we feel pain and try to avoid it just to feel pain and avoid it, and not because it keeps us alive. I just don't see much sense in that view
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx] 1
#18910933 - 09/30/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: Living is not the same as fighting against death. Living in fear of death is fighting against death.
No. It is fighting against life.
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LSDXM
What Doth Life?



Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 2,505
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
#18910963 - 09/30/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Krash Kharma said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Krash Kharma said: What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.
I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?
It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.
I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.
That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.
Death does not equal pain. Much of what you described is avoidance of pain rather than death.
The opposite of pleasure isn't death, it's pain. We try to mend our illnesses because they cause us pain, which make it hard to live. Fighting against cancer is fighting against death. Fighting against a skinned knee, however, is fighting against pain. So what are you saying, that if I really wasn't scared of death, I'd let my wounds fester?
It's important to note that the drive for pleasure (and thus the avoidance of pain) is in us long before we're even aware of the concept of death.
It may be that we feel pain and try to avoid it just to feel pain and avoid it, and not because it keeps us alive. I just don't see much sense in that view 
It makes more sense to you, that we avoid pain because of the abstract fear of death, than that we avoid it because it hurts?
Existential crises are extremely personal experiences, not broad-scale. They may be innate/potential in everyone, but not everyone is experiencing an existential crisis. Everyone, however, feels pain (except of course people born with various mutations from the norm). Everyone generally agrees that pain is unpleasant (except of course for those who get off on it, or again, don't feel pain).
I feel like going any further and actually try to explain to you why people inherently are driven to avoid what hurts them would be insulting to everyone's intelligence.
Next time you cut yourself, realize that you have the choice to do it again immediately if you choose, even deeper if you want to, shit, you could cut off a whole finger if you felt like it, and think to yourself, "am I going to clean this instead of jamming a knife further into it, because I'm scared of death, or because of how badly it hurts?"
--------------------
The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18910970 - 09/30/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
r72rock said: I feel that anyone can readjust their lenses with a new world view, and find evidence for it. I mean, it could be true, but that's totally jumping to a conclusion, and of course, your findings would be be rationalized to fit into this new world view and it'll be affirmed. I'm not saying it's false exactly, I'm just saying, people tend to convince themselves of lots of things.
Trying to narrow a whole lot of human activities into one motive can be short sighted. Things seems to be too complex to have it boiled down to one drive. I'm not denying DA either, but I'm just saying if you look out into the world with that one scope, you'll find things for it and rationalize them to fall into place that way too. I just think we should be skeptical of reductionist views.
This has kind of been my thought process today. It's just one way of looking at the world and there are many others. In fact my perspective seems to be ever changing and it's something I'm very aware of and actually quite happy about. Maybe DA isn't the be all and end all, or maybe it is. It certainly seems to influence human behaviour a lot, but there is room for other concurrent perspectives I'm sure.
I'm fairly certain DA is the underlying fear of most humans (and animals), but it's probably not our only motivation in life. As you say, it's more complicated than that.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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LSDXM
What Doth Life?



Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 2,505
Loc: The 518
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18910972 - 09/30/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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PocketLady your signature is my avatar
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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18911052 - 09/30/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you have an interesting idea for a thread and continued discussion of this issue. Maybe you can start it with some theories of what fears cannot be likely traced to DA at core.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,855
Last seen: 1 minute, 4 seconds
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
#18911198 - 09/30/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Krash Kharma said:
Quote:
Kickle said: It may be that we feel pain and try to avoid it just to feel pain and avoid it, and not because it keeps us alive. I just don't see much sense in that view 
It makes more sense to you, that we avoid pain because of the abstract fear of death, than that we avoid it because it hurts?
Existential crises are extremely personal experiences, not broad-scale. They may be innate/potential in everyone, but not everyone is experiencing an existential crisis. Everyone, however, feels pain (except of course people born with various mutations from the norm). Everyone generally agrees that pain is unpleasant (except of course for those who get off on it, or again, don't feel pain).
I feel like going any further and actually try to explain to you why people inherently are driven to avoid what hurts them would be insulting to everyone's intelligence.
Next time you cut yourself, realize that you have the choice to do it again immediately if you choose, even deeper if you want to, shit, you could cut off a whole finger if you felt like it, and think to yourself, "am I going to clean this instead of jamming a knife further into it, because I'm scared of death, or because of how badly it hurts?"
nope, that's not what I said. re-read what I wrote. I never said anything about an abstract fear of death. You're twisting a simple concept into something complex. I said we might feel pain just to feel pain, but that it doesn't make sense to me in that way. what does make sense is that our bodies have the ability to feel pain because it helps to keep us alive, or said another way, to keep us from dying.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18911292 - 09/30/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Now I'm not ready to totally agree with Becker that death anxiety cannot under any circumstances be overcome. However it is very very rare indeed and the only evidence for it I have ever seen and believe is in the terminally ill. Those very close to death. I do wonder about this and what the process is and why when we are very close to our actual end is it that our death anxiety can be made to possibly lessen dramatically? (it could be an energy issue)
It is quite common to hear about people accepting their own death when they believe it to be certain -- plane crash survivors, for example, or near-drowning victims will report that they were "overcome by a calm feeling of acceptance." It seems to be common across cultures as well. One possible explanation might be that it's advantageous, in terms of evolution, for us to NOT PANIC in dangerous situations. Our ancestors who weren't blinded by fear and confused by panic during traumatic events were more likely to survive. This might also fit with the fact that many people who had so-called "near-death experiences" weren't actually in danger of dying.
Maybe.
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: NetDiver]
#18911678 - 09/30/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I honestly don't fear death, not after the OBEs, the noticing of the dreamlike or illusory nature of life and the experiences that revealed the utter strangeness of this dream, illusion or circumstance.
But especially not after the OBEs.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18911697 - 09/30/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think you have an interesting idea for a thread and continued discussion of this issue. Maybe you can start it with some theories of what fears cannot be likely traced to DA at core. 
Well my first thought is to say something like social anxiety, although I may well be missing something. I can't immediately see how that is directly linked to death anxiety, but I can see that perhaps self-confidence is a means of protecting against and avoiding DA. People with high self-esteem are general much less anxious and fearful in general.
The other thing I'm questioning is whether fear is the motivator for everything we do. I mean as animals obviously our biggest instinct is to survive and continue the species, but we are also different to the rest of the animals kingdom. We are self-conscious which perhaps makes us more aware of death than other animals, but we also have the ability to create. For those of us who are lucky enough to be comfortable and have our basic needs met, we can afford to spend our time creating, learning, exploring. I really don't want to accept that that is just us trying to bury our heads in the sand and avoiding the inevitable.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
#18911712 - 09/30/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Krash Kharma said: PocketLady your signature is my avatar 
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18911917 - 09/30/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well my first thought is to say something like social anxiety, although I may well be missing something. I can't immediately see how that is directly linked to death anxiety I can easily see a possible link. For early man and beyond being accepted in the group was a matter of survival. Without that acceptance one was dead meat. Social anxiety might well have it's roots in that. I'm pretty sure Becker covered this in his books.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18911962 - 09/30/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yep I guess that makes perfect sense now I think about it.
Meh, maybe I'm just in denial. I don't really like the implications of this if true.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18912031 - 09/30/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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no one does. If it's true then humanity is exactly what it seems to be.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Grapefruit]
#18912073 - 09/30/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way.. I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being. I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills. Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way. The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....
All that stuff, worrying about medical bills, future pain/discomfort, looking to religion and so on, is only a surface level reaction to DA IMO. That stuff varies from person to person a lot, but what's inside is most likely the same for everyone, what the schizo's and trippers and meth heads see and that is truly a hidden cauldron of madness, with all kinds of venomous, fanged and foreign, even alien creatures waiting to cut out your insides, those "cold grinding grizzly bear jaws hot on your heels".
Well I'm sure there are some of the same features with cortisol and adrenaline on a neurological level, but also many other different ones that contribute to the different manifestations... I don't think morbid schizophrenic/meth hallucinations are precisely the same. It also seems we absolutely love and live for a bit of death stress in the right circumstances where we feel safe but can give up a little control (horror films, roller coasters, NDEs on psychedelics).
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
#18912083 - 09/30/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said: I honestly don't fear death, not after the OBEs, the noticing of the dreamlike or illusory nature of life and the experiences that revealed the utter strangeness of this dream, illusion or circumstance.
But especially not after the OBEs.
What is your experience with OBEs?
I only had 2, one stemmed from a sleep paralysis and the other a lucid dream. Both times I felt the OBE realm to be sketchy and disturbing, not something that felt too good.
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Memories



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18912352 - 09/30/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way.. I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being. I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills. Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way. The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....
All that stuff, worrying about medical bills, future pain/discomfort, looking to religion and so on, is only a surface level reaction to DA IMO. That stuff varies from person to person a lot, but what's inside is most likely the same for everyone, what the schizo's and trippers and meth heads see and that is truly a hidden cauldron of madness, with all kinds of venomous, fanged and foreign, even alien creatures waiting to cut out your insides, those "cold grinding grizzly bear jaws hot on your heels".
Well I'm sure there are some of the same features with cortisol and adrenaline on a neurological level, but also many other different ones that contribute to the different manifestations... I don't think morbid schizophrenic/meth hallucinations are precisely the same. It also seems we absolutely love and live for a bit of death stress in the right circumstances where we feel safe but can give up a little control (horror films, roller coasters, NDEs on psychedelics).
I don't think I would classify schizophrenia or meth psychosis as a result of death anxiety. Speaking first hand, you will still be hallucinating at a comparable intensity if you aren't anxious.
And I agree that schizophrenic delusions and amphetamine psychosis delusions aren't the same, but I have had multiple schizophrenics tell me they feel very similar.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18913948 - 09/30/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said: This has kind of been my thought process today. It's just one way of looking at the world and there are many others. In fact my perspective seems to be ever changing and it's something I'm very aware of and actually quite happy about. Maybe DA isn't the be all and end all, or maybe it is. It certainly seems to influence human behaviour a lot, but there is room for other concurrent perspectives I'm sure.
I'm fairly certain DA is the underlying fear of most humans (and animals), but it's probably not our only motivation in life. As you say, it's more complicated than that.
Right. It may be, it may not be. I do believe it influences human behavior, which is why I've loved this subject since it was introduced to me, but I don't think it's the only motivation.
You said that Death Anxiety is an underlying fear in humans and animals, but what other animals, besides us, have death anxiety? I believe this raises the question of what Death Anxiety is in the first place, because my form of anxiety is more complex (not more anxiety ridden, just more complex) than an animal's form. I feel that our definition of Death Anxiety is too broad if we lump all animals into one category because we (as humans) have more complex brains than most animals.
I want to try now and define death anxiety. 
I see death anxiety in two forms: the existential form and the biological form.
An animal's reaction to a life or death situation can be similar to mine. We can use the example a car coming towards us. There's an immediate reaction that kicks in, and that takes over my body.
This is something that's biologically built into us. That's who we are -- animals. I would call this the biological form.
But can an animal think about the existential implications of Death Anxiety? Can a cat contemplate non-existence? I feel that the cat can't abstractly think about something like non existence. And as it's been said many a times on this board, Death Anxiety could just as easily be called impermanence anxiety (which is what death implies), and what really shakes us about impermanence is the unknown. I guess we could then also say that it's "anxiety of the unknown."
Therefore, I'd say a cat doesn't have the existential form. It'll only have the biological form, where as I on the other hand, can experience both forms.
I also think about times that I don't have death anxiety in the existential form. Like when I'm in deep sleep, or if I'm relaxing in the sun. I guess it could be argued that it is my motivation for doing that activity, but I'm not anxious about death during the activity, so what's the problem?
I'm also going to attack your claim that Death Anxiety is the underlying fear. As I said earlier, I don't think that this is the underlying motivation for everything in life, but I also don't think it's an underlying fear for everything.
Think back to being a kid. Were there fears before the concept of death was known? Of course. Becker even talks about this in his book. He talks about how kids acquire the knowledge of death and how it shapes their world view. To me, this shows that this existential fear is something that's learned. I feel that people can learn to tie all their fears to Death Anxiety, and because of this, I don't believe that this is the underlying fear of everything.
From hearing testimonies from people who were dying, in the cases of those who are terminally ill, I do think Death Anxiety can be overcome, and for the reasons that I posted. I'm not sure though... I guess I'll have to wait and see. I haven't overcome it, but it's a work in progress. I feel it's wrong to assume though that:
A.) It motives all B.) It's an underlying fear of all our fears
An interesting question that I've also had about Death Anxiety is how can we know what death anxiety is (and point to it in all these cases) if we didn't know what not having death anxiety is? How could we point it out if it's all we knew? I feel the only reason we can point out Death Anxiety in certain cases is because we know what it's like to not have Death Anxiety as well.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18914013 - 10/01/13 12:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If DA were not the underlying cause of our anxieties what do you think is and why?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18914045 - 10/01/13 12:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you should take a closer look at monkeys. Baboons spend about 3hrs a day getting their calories, and spend 9 hours of their free time every day to making each other miserable. They are not being stressed by lions chasing them all the time, they're being stressed by each other and the social and psychological tumult invented by their own species. They're a perfect model for Western stress related disease.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18914064 - 10/01/13 12:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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any good links to this idea?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:
circastes said: I honestly don't fear death, not after the OBEs, the noticing of the dreamlike or illusory nature of life and the experiences that revealed the utter strangeness of this dream, illusion or circumstance.
But especially not after the OBEs.
What is your experience with OBEs?
I only had 2, one stemmed from a sleep paralysis and the other a lucid dream. Both times I felt the OBE realm to be sketchy and disturbing, not something that felt too good.
I've had hundreds, most spontaneous, as in I just wake up with the opportunity to exit, sorta sleep paralysis. There seem to be many different types of OBEs or realms. Some are pretty bizarre and definitely don't feel so good. But there are some that while seeming bizarre have a glimmer of mystery and strange familiarity, and generally do feel good. These good ones involve 'fear tests' or something like a demon will present itself to you, if you just acknowledge them as fear tests you can exit the body. Very strange, I don't know how or why it's like that, seems we're in a construct... but these places seem like extensions of this reality, ie. a broader reality, that there's more to it all than this.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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CosmicJoke
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18914095 - 10/01/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hope you'll find this interesting.
Edit:
Maybe all the alpha males ancestors in that doc The Enlightened Ones you once linked died off from some sort of disease
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (10/01/13 12:49 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18914129 - 10/01/13 12:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wow thanks, that was amazing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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CosmicJoke
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18914218 - 10/01/13 01:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually thank you, you got me investigating this guy a bit further, great rant here IMO:
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18914266 - 10/01/13 01:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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where can I purchase this type of meat?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18914452 - 10/01/13 02:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Hope you'll find this interesting.
Edit:
Maybe all the alpha males ancestors in that doc The Enlightened Ones you once linked died off from some sort of disease 
Awesome video.
Ok so their social system is created by them, just as ours is created by us. But surely the hierarchical system links back to survival on some level? The alpha males have better conditions, better access to food and less likely to get beat up. They have a higher chance of survival and therefore less stress.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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PocketLady



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18914505 - 10/01/13 03:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
r72rock said:
But can an animal think about the existential implications of Death Anxiety? Can a cat contemplate non-existence? I feel that the cat can't abstractly think about something like non existence. And as it's been said many a times on this board, Death Anxiety could just as easily be called impermanence anxiety (which is what death implies), and what really shakes us about impermanence is the unknown. I guess we could then also say that it's "anxiety of the unknown."
Therefore, I'd say a cat doesn't have the existential form. It'll only have the biological form, where as I on the other hand, can experience both forms.
Yeah I agree with you, two different types.
Quote:
r72rock said: I'm also going to attack your claim that Death Anxiety is the underlying fear. As I said earlier, I don't think that this is the underlying motivation for everything in life, but I also don't think it's an underlying fear for everything.
Think back to being a kid. Were there fears before the concept of death was known? Of course. Becker even talks about this in his book. He talks about how kids acquire the knowledge of death and how it shapes their world view. To me, this shows that this existential fear is something that's learned. I feel that people can learn to tie all their fears to Death Anxiety, and because of this, I don't believe that this is the underlying fear of everything.
Ok, so people aren't born with existential death anxiety, but they must be born with biological death anxiety? The fear may not be conscious, but it's there instinctually surely?
The underlying fear of everything has to be death. It has to be. That is the purpose of fear, to keep us alive. The question is, is it that we simply misplace our fear onto things that aren't really a matter of survival? Or is it that the all things we fear ultimately lead back to death anxiety? Are these two things the same thing?
I'm not sure to be honest, I'm not even sure which corner I'm fighting any more *confused*
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18914850 - 10/01/13 07:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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My mental and experiential journey has lead me to the same conclusions. Our fears at core when you follow the thread back down, are always fear of impermanence/death. I'm waiting (years) for someone to really demonstrate how Becker and the TMT people are wrong on this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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hTx
(:



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18915027 - 10/01/13 08:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I already did by showing with logical evidence that DA is a more perfect manifestation of the fear of the unknown. Being safe isn't DA its just the smart thing to do if anyone wants to live. Subscribing to some religion isn't DA, more DC (death curiosity) as religion typically brings in such places like hell and purgatory..meaning religions are likely the cause of much DA, not the relief of them.
Death anxiety is just the captain obvious way of saying "Will to Live" or rather "Scared to Live", this is explained in the 1st circuit in the 8 circuit model. The will to live is embedded in every single living creature. Once survival needs are met it is hardly the driver of all human behavior. The entire book by Becker is not profound in the least, he says nothing new, just points out the obvious, that humans want to live.
Whoa! So amazing! 
I'm not impressed with anything anyone says regarding DA acting like its some profound explanation of human behaviour.
No fucking shit life is driven to live and avoid death in order to survive. That is pretty damn standard animal/plant behavior, and yeah I'm absolutely positive it is unconscious and robotical even, take fight or flight response for instance. There is no philosophy in that book, just a mass charade of masking the very obvious very-well known truth that anything living seeks to avoid dying and calls it death anxiety. Duping everybody in the process.
Amazing observation he had there.
Not.
It's just a restatement of the obvious, and than everyone here gets all "oh you converted!"
To what exactly? Learning that you don't want to die on an conscious, subconscious, and unconscious level? WHOA
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx]
#18915213 - 10/01/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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IMO you're missing the main issue here. Becker never claimed to have discovered anything amazingly unknown or special. What he did is to INVESTIGATE why we tend to downplay or ignore it's significance. Which is something everyone seems to do much of the time. So if it's so obvious why does it seem to come as a revelation to so many when they finally grok it? This is what Becker and the TMT folk are on to. That and what a motivator of human action it is.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/01/13 10:41 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18915224 - 10/01/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think a good question might be is what would you fear if you were immortal and all powerful? The list would likely dwindle dramatically.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18916235 - 10/01/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Eternal boredom. That would fit nicely with the whole hindu back story. Then again wouldn't you have the power to change your emotion however you wanted?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Grapefruit]
#18916274 - 10/01/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You would have very few things to consider fearing if any.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18916475 - 10/01/13 02:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: If DA were not the underlying cause of our anxieties what do you think is and why?
I'm a lot more afraid of pain than I am of death.
--------------------
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916567 - 10/01/13 02:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pain is intimately associated with death. Lots of pain means possible or likely death. Being afraid of pain makes good sense.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18916764 - 10/01/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Pain is intimately associated with death. Lots of pain means possible or likely death. Being afraid of pain makes good sense.
When you're dead you don't feel pain. Death is the cessation of pain.
--------------------
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916782 - 10/01/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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So?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18916859 - 10/01/13 03:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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So fear of pain has nothing to do with DA.
--------------------
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PocketLady



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916930 - 10/01/13 03:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pain protects us from death, just like fear does. More specifically, fear of pain protects us from death.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916944 - 10/01/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: So fear of pain has nothing to do with DA.
Only if psychology and emotion plays no part in our makeup.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18916946 - 10/01/13 03:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PocketLady said: Pain protects us from death, just like fear does. More specifically, fear of pain protects us from death.
Of course it does. As I said it's tied in with our fear of death.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18917606 - 10/01/13 06:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: So fear of pain has nothing to do with DA.
Only if psychology and emotion plays no part in our makeup.
I'm going to say this again. I do not fear death. He is over my shoulder, I believe the left one. Pain, on the other hand, is immediate and can linger. Sometimes people kill themselves to escape pain.
--------------------
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18917657 - 10/01/13 06:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You can say whatever you like. Doesn't change any of the points being made here.
Since when is death a "he"?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/01/13 06:37 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18917808 - 10/01/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ask don Juan
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circastes
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18917840 - 10/01/13 07:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The weather is matched to my cognition, I'm the imagination of myself in the mirror, there seem to be fear tests associated with leaving the body, I feel like I'm part of God, Nature is profoundly beautiful and life is awesome.
Why should I be worrying about death again?
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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zappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
#18917852 - 10/01/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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No reason at all. It will come for you soon enough. Icelander can live in fear but we don't have to.
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Icelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18917856 - 10/01/13 07:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Ask don Juan
Don't think he ever said it was a he. You're romanticizing death just like Castaneda was.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18917865 - 10/01/13 07:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: No reason at all. It will come for you soon enough. Icelander can live in fear but we don't have to.
Yeah you and Circastes I totally believe you guys. What a great team.
Circastes you don't even believe death exists, remember. You're an immortalist remember?
Actually I don't fear it either cause I was saved at 15 and Jesus is going to take me up to heaven to live forever with the angles and learn to play the harp and all that really cool shit. 
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/01/13 07:47 PM)
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18918001 - 10/01/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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"without the threat of death there's no reason to live at all" - Marilyn Manson
LSD and Mushrooms and Pot and overthinking things. ya for all of those. distractions!1
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18919265 - 10/02/13 12:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: If DA were not the underlying cause of our anxieties what do you think is and why?
Why does there have to be an underlying cause for all our anxieties? That was my main point.
What is a underlying cause of our anxieties? I don't know. I don't think there has to be one for all of them. 
Quote:
PocketLady said: Ok, so people aren't born with existential death anxiety, but they must be born with biological death anxiety? The fear may not be conscious, but it's there instinctually surely?
The underlying fear of everything has to be death. It has to be. That is the purpose of fear, to keep us alive. The question is, is it that we simply misplace our fear onto things that aren't really a matter of survival? Or is it that the all things we fear ultimately lead back to death anxiety? Are these two things the same thing?
I'm not sure to be honest, I'm not even sure which corner I'm fighting any more *confused* 
According to my reasoning, I'd say people aren't born with the existential version.
Yeah, I'd agree and say that people are born with biological DA. That's just who we are -- animals. That's why we're here today because ancestors were able to keep living.
I can see your argument, but I still think it's short sighted to say that it is the underlying fear. It could be -- I don't deny that, but I think that's a big jump. If it helps one's death anxiety to say that the underlying fear of it all is death, than so be it. (Maybe it helps mine to say it isn't? I don't know.)
I'm not really concerned with biological death anxiety. Why would we want to try and control something that can't really be controlled? I'm mostly concerned with what we are conscious of, and what we can control, and on that note, I think it's possible to accept death in the existential way.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18919497 - 10/02/13 02:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why does there have to be an underlying cause for all our anxieties? That was my main point.
There doesn't have to be one and may not be one. I was asking for ideas on what other things could cause anxiety and could not be possibly traced to fear of impermanence or death.
I haven't heard any that are convincing to me but I'm hardly saying there isn't any. I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't any.
Any ideas?
Here's and interesting article on a possible connection between pain and DA. Seems to be a legit study. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/tylenol-death-anxiety-existential-dread_n_3101606.html
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/02/13 02:58 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18919514 - 10/02/13 03:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Robert Langs distinguishes three types of death anxiety:[3] Predatory death anxiety Predatory death anxiety arises from the fear of being harmed.[4] It is the most basic and oldest[5] form of death anxiety, with its origins stemming from the first unicellular organisms’ set of adaptive resources. Unicellular organisms have receptors that have evolved to react to external dangers and they also have self-protective, responsive mechanisms made to guarantee survival in the face of chemical and physical forms of attack or danger.[6] In humans, this form of death anxiety is evoked by a variety of danger situations that put the recipient at risk or threatens his or her survival.[7] These traumas may be psychological and/or physical.[7] Predatory death anxieties mobilize an individual’s adaptive resources and lead to fight or flight, active efforts to combat the danger or attempts to escape the threatening situation.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_anxiety_(psychology)
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18922300 - 10/02/13 04:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: No reason at all. It will come for you soon enough. Icelander can live in fear but we don't have to.
Yeah you and Circastes I totally believe you guys. What a great team.
Circastes you don't even believe death exists, remember. You're an immortalist remember?
Actually I don't fear it either cause I was saved at 15 and Jesus is going to take me up to heaven to live forever with the angles and learn to play the harp and all that really cool shit. 
I had two cancers with high fatality potential. I was not afraid of anything except the fucking shots and that includes not waking up from the table. It wasn't just faith in my doctors or anything. I was just all C'est la vie. Believe me or not.
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18922364 - 10/02/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you weren't afraid of dying, then why take the scary shots at all? Wasn't the point of subjecting yourself to that pain done in order to have a fighting chance?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18922366 - 10/02/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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whoa
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
#18922858 - 10/02/13 06:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: If you weren't afraid of dying, then why take the scary shots at all? Wasn't the point of subjecting yourself to that pain done in order to have a fighting chance?
I still have work to do but if I can't so be it. Not fearing death is not the same as seeking it.
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18922895 - 10/02/13 06:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Why does there have to be an underlying cause for all our anxieties? That was my main point.
There doesn't have to be one and may not be one. I was asking for ideas on what other things could cause anxiety and could not be possibly traced to fear of impermanence or death.
I haven't heard any that are convincing to me but I'm hardly saying there isn't any. I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't any.
Any ideas?
Here's and interesting article on a possible connection between pain and DA. Seems to be a legit study. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/tylenol-death-anxiety-existential-dread_n_3101606.html
I read that article just the other day! I was fascinated by it. Cool stuff. 
As for other things that could cause anxiety? An example that comes into my head is someone who's anxious to provide for a family. I think about a father who is anxious to pay the bills for the week because they want their son to be okay and live a good life.
I also think of an example of anxiety that arises when one sees someone falling into dementia or suffering from a case of catatonic schizophrenia. Imagine someone who is watching someone like their brother or sister suffering from these illnesses. I don't feel there's actual death anxiety for the person who's watching it because I feel that their mind is occupied with concern for that other person. It's an act of compassion and empathy, rather than the immediate feeling of one's own death anxiety. I'm not a neuroscientist, but I believe that mirror neurons fire off in this case, that allows us to put ourselves in other people's shoes to understand them.
And what about the case of people who are retarded? Or have severe brain damage? Do they experience death anxiety? Can they even comprehend death anxiety? Are their anxieties linked to death? In some cases, do these types of people even have anxieties? (I'd hope they wouldn't, because I'd say one would've lucked out if they didn't have any anxieties.) Are they even aware of their motives at all? I can think of some people who are retarded, and I believe that they don't have death anxiety or wonder about things like that. But ultimately, who knows?
I remember being a kid, and feeling sad for those who were mentally retarded, and I remember asking my mom why they were like that and what they did to deserve a bad life. She answered that maybe the retarded person was completely blissed out, didn't even know that they were different, and lead the happiest life that I could ever possible imagine. For arguments sake, the opposite could be true, but I think it's safe to assume that there's at least one person out there in which where this case applies.
Also, from that Robert Lang that you quoted, I found an article by him that was really well written breaking up Death Anxiety like I did, although he did it much better and used three forms:
http://www.escp.org/three_forms_death_anxiety.html
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18922979 - 10/02/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I can think of ways that all those things can relate to or remind one of their mortality. But as stated that doesn't mean there is an actual connection in reality in the same way that you can interpret the bible to mean just about anything you want. Still I think it does have a connection. For instance failure to provide for a family in our early history meant sure death.
Anyway to each his own belief on this issue. I've laid out my case for this in some pretty in depth and long debates in the past 8 years here. I'm convinced that DA is the major player in our lives and actions and I've been pretty open to being convinced otherwise imo. But who knows.
The only argument I get from most is the adamant claim that they have no fear of death. Well that's hardly reliable evidence but as I say to each his/her own.
I found your link info when I was doing a little research yesterday.
Edited by Icelander (10/02/13 07:17 PM)
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: zappaisgod]
#18923208 - 10/02/13 08:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Kickle said: If you weren't afraid of dying, then why take the scary shots at all? Wasn't the point of subjecting yourself to that pain done in order to have a fighting chance?
I still have work to do but if I can't so be it. Not fearing death is not the same as seeking it.
You don't have to seek death to want to avoid what you find scary. Death was just an alternative. But pain was preferrable it seems 
For what its worth I think its commendable you found some peace in what I'm guessing was a very trying set of events
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
#18923272 - 10/02/13 08:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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In total it really wasn't that bad. The radioactive dye injections hurt like a bastard and I was sore for a few weeks. I just can't stand to sit still while somebody jabs me with a needle. I'm fine with accidental pain, I'm a carpenter, little shit happens all the time that hurts far more than the needles (except the radioactive ones. They were wasp stings) but I just fucking hate sitting there and letting it happen. Sends my blood pressure through the roof. I had to try three times to do an autologous blood donation because of it. And then the morons didn't store the blood properly so it got tossed.
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18924139 - 10/03/13 12:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here's and example surrounding DA from my own life. Now after hearing this you might ask me why I believe in DA? This was in Seattle many years ago. I had a gun pulled on me in the parking lot of a bar I was at. At the time when I faced that gun I had no fear for my life, or after for that matter. Logically I knew there was a possibility of being shot and killed. Still I did not back down from this person or beg for my life or think of running. Why was this? It was because I "knew" that nothing bad could happen to me. I was convinced that I was not going to be killed. Logically there was no reason for that. But I had convinced myself that no harm could come to me. I was fearless and later told people who saw it that I was ready for anything that could happen to me.
It was not that I wasn't afraid of dying because I know I do have that fear in some instances. It was that the shields of confidence and belief I had going were able to block out that fear effectively. This is just as Becker describes it and the way shields work to prevent us feeling DA every moment of our lives as you know because I believe you took the time to read his book and theories on the subject.
Many people can take a threat to their life calmly imo because they are convinced that whatever is threatening them at the time is not going to be able to kill them. Yet Becker was able to convince me that I did have DA and it showed in many of my actions and beliefs and that these were operating mostly on unconscious levels. Now with that awareness I've made many those things conscious and know I have DA. I also believe it has less of an effect on me than it used to. I have to wonder if it has anything to do with the process of looking at my own anxieties and fears in this area? It's going to be different for every person. I have a friend who faints at the sight of blood or small amount of pain in their self or others. (I can take a ton more pain than many people I know.) I have to laugh at their fear. Yet I can be frightened by things that don't scare her seemingly at all. Go figure.
Edited by Icelander (10/03/13 01:09 AM)
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18926681 - 10/03/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for sharing that story. That sounds real intense.
But one thing that I think about, is how you reflect on the story, and then come to the conclusion that it was DA. And, in retrospect, you may be totally right. If we look through Becker's lens, we can say that you didn't have overt of conscious DA, but that it was there, and it just manifested itself in another way.
Becker's notions of DA and having people throw up shields to block the awesomeness of the cosmos is convincing. If I remember correctly, I haven't read Denial of Death in a long time, Becker writes that it couldn't be any other way because of years and years of evolution. We aren't supposed to die, and it couldn't be any other way.
Another way of thinking about Death Anxiety is going back to the two ways that I broke it up. I still hold that it's possible to overcome existential Death Anxiety, but it may be impossible to overcome the biological one. I mean, I think you mentioned it earlier in the thread... thinking about it while sitting in the comfort in your home thinking about death isn't the greatest thing, but it's not terrible. But it seems we can really learn to accept it.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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Icelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18926774 - 10/03/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I just haven't met anyone who doesn't seem to manifest some DA.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18928136 - 10/03/13 09:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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And maybe there isn't anyone.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
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