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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17487556 -

Ped said:
Thus it is said:
The path into the light seems dark,
the path forward seems to go back,
the direct path seems long,
true power seems weak,
true purity seems tarnished,
true steadfastness seems changeable,
true clarity seems obscure,
the greatest are seems unsophisticated,
the greatest love seems indifferent,
the greatest wisdom seems childish.

The Tao is nowhere to be found.
Yet it nourishes and completes all things.



Thank you! at page number 4 I was beginning to think no one would bring up Tao.


...But OP, in one of your posts you said something along the lines of "I'm not always depressed but my point of view never changes."
Just wanted to say I feel the exact same way. Tho our points of views have differences.  But also similarities for sure.

Oh and Life isn't suffering. Societal Life is. Unfortunately the two are beginning to merge.

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Re: Depression [Re: TheMule73]
    #17487962 -

On a really subtle level, life is most certainly suffering.  It is an inherent attribute of interpretative pattern-organizing existence, or consciousness, to suffer.  Without the sensitivities afforded to us by our living surfaces, be these material or energetic in nature, there would be no basis of imputation for selfhood, or discrete life-process.  Since these surfaces depend on constant stimulation to maintain their organization and continuity, and since any constant necessarily sustains as the unity of two poles, the experience of life is always as painful as it is pleasurable, or any ratio thereof which is sustainable.

There is no state in life that is free from suffering.  There is however a state that is neither lifeless nor deathless, it goes beyond birth and death, pleasure and pain, renewal and decay.  This is the transcendent state, and it abides eternally.  It's that from which all of us has emerged, and it's that to which all of us will return.

This transcendent state is very subtle and difficult to grasp, however it is much easier to see when you're wearing glasses.  You see, when you're wearing glasses, it can be said that your lenses are clear.  But they are not clear enough to know and perceive.  Only the mind is clear enough to know and to perceive.  This clearness is the interminable silence in which all things are manifest; it is neither formed nor formless, both lifeless and deathless, eternally at peace with eternal chaos.

:nicesmile:

Edited by Ped (01/02/13 08:56 PM)

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17488008 -

Ped said:
There is no state in life that is free from suffering.  There is however a state that is neither lifeless nor deathless, it goes beyond birth and death, pleasure and pain, renewal and decay. 



What the heck does this even mean?  One has to be born to experience this state, presumably, so it's not beyond birth, and I assume you don't mean to imply that this state guarantees immortality, so it's certainly not beyond death.  Do you mean that while in this state I won't feel either pleasure nor pain?  Seems kinda meh, really... and I'm sure that no matter what mental state one is one will always continue to experience the process of continual renewal, both physical and mental (not to mention decay), so overall your post, although poetic, seems literally contradictory and meaningless.  :sorry:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #17488067 -

'Nothingness' based on what one believe to be their state pre-fuck presumably.

I think its more catchy than so...


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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Re: Depression [Re: deCypher]
    #17488181 -

>> so overall your post, although poetic, seems literally contradictory and meaningless.

Shit, you got me.  Back around we go, I guess.

What if this state were not your state or my state or Buddha's state or Christ's state, but...



How would you define a clearness that exists both eternally within and eternally around all states, whether states of matter, matters of state, states of energy, states of civilizations, states of consciousness, and so on and so forth.  How would you convey that?  With flowery, poetic language, highly technical language, or maybe dramatic language, like a short-story, or maybe music perhaps?

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17488263 -

What do you base your theory on? "Everything i assume to know!"?

Try answering short and accurate on that question.

There are 7 billion different theories, thats the plot...


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17488290 -

I feel like i'm just wandering through life right now with no real long term goals other then get a good job, earn as much money as i can, and slowly rot like the rest of the grey haired suits in this country.  Is this really the best way to live?  What would be the best way to live?

I'm so fucking lost in my life right now.  There are so many damn choices i can't make up my mind, so i just wander along... wandering and avoiding making any decision at all as the anxiety of making choices haunts me.  A career, a wife a this a that... it's all so much pressure and i don't know what i want.  I don't know what to do.  I used to just go with the flow, but now i'm lost.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #17488436 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
I feel like i'm just wandering through life right now with no real long term goals other then get a good job, earn as much money as i can, and slowly rot like the rest of the grey haired suits in this country.  Is this really the best way to live?  What would be the best way to live?

I'm so fucking lost in my life right now.  There are so many damn choices i can't make up my mind, so i just wander along... wandering and avoiding making any decision at all as the anxiety of making choices haunts me.  A career, a wife a this a that... it's all so much pressure and i don't know what i want.  I don't know what to do.  I used to just go with the flow, but now i'm lost.




Take a risk imo

You better off making wrong decisions then living in a state of indecision , wrong decisions can work as a platform even though seemingly daunting at the time , its necessary to live through mistakes in order to learn from them otherwise its just a bunch of theory and speculation


--------------------

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17488472 -

Ped said:
On a really subtle level, life is most certainly suffering.  It is an inherent attribute of interpretative pattern-organizing existence, or consciousness, to suffer.  Without the sensitivities afforded to us by our living surfaces, be these material or energetic in nature, there would be no basis of imputation for selfhood, or discrete life-process.  Since these surfaces depend on constant stimulation to maintain their organization and continuity, and since any constant necessarily sustains as the unity of two poles, the experience of life is always as painful as it is pleasurable, or any ratio thereof which is sustainable.

There is no state in life that is free from suffering.  There is however a state that is neither lifeless nor deathless, it goes beyond birth and death, pleasure and pain, renewal and decay.  This is the transcendent state, and it abides eternally.  It's that from which all of us has emerged, and it's that to which all of us will return.

This transcendent state is very subtle and difficult to grasp, however it is much easier to see when you're wearing glasses.  You see, when you're wearing glasses, it can be said that your lenses are clear.  But they are not clear enough to know and perceive.  Only the mind is clear enough to know and to perceive.  This clearness is the interminable silence in which all things are manifest; it is neither formed nor formless, both lifeless and deathless, eternally at peace with eternal chaos.

:nicesmile:




Thus it is said, by Ped.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #17488478 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
I feel like i'm just wandering through life right now with no real long term goals other then get a good job, earn as much money as i can, and slowly rot like the rest of the grey haired suits in this country.  Is this really the best way to live?  What would be the best way to live?

I'm so fucking lost in my life right now.  There are so many damn choices i can't make up my mind, so i just wander along... wandering and avoiding making any decision at all as the anxiety of making choices haunts me.  A career, a wife a this a that... it's all so much pressure and i don't know what i want.  I don't know what to do.  I used to just go with the flow, but now i'm lost.




Seems about normal.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17488488 -

>> Thus it is said, by Ped.

:heytherebadboy:

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17488550 -

Ped said:
On a really subtle level, life is most certainly suffering.  It is an inherent attribute of interpretative pattern-organizing existence, or consciousness, to suffer.  Without the sensitivities afforded to us by our living surfaces, be these material or energetic in nature, there would be no basis of imputation for selfhood, or discrete life-process.  Since these surfaces depend on constant stimulation to maintain their organization and continuity, and since any constant necessarily sustains as the unity of two poles, the experience of life is always as painful as it is pleasurable, or any ratio thereof which is sustainable.

There is no state in life that is free from suffering.  There is however a state that is neither lifeless nor deathless, it goes beyond birth and death, pleasure and pain, renewal and decay.  This is the transcendent state, and it abides eternally.  It's that from which all of us has emerged, and it's that to which all of us will return.

This transcendent state is very subtle and difficult to grasp, however it is much easier to see when you're wearing glasses.  You see, when you're wearing glasses, it can be said that your lenses are clear.  But they are not clear enough to know and perceive.  Only the mind is clear enough to know and to perceive.  This clearness is the interminable silence in which all things are manifest; it is neither formed nor formless, both lifeless and deathless, eternally at peace with eternal chaos.

:nicesmile:





Though eastern teachings tend to give me peace in my daily life, I could never stand the notion that there is no state of life free of suffering. For me, I take taoism as this (I'll talk like its fact, but its just my take on what Taoism is. )...

The state in which there is a self, gives meaning to the true state of nothingness. Tao is the force, the way, the route, the principle of dependence between two aspects of well, anything.  But what that "way" does is become the origin of the birth of meaning for the other. One aspect is meaningless without the relationship between itself and the opposite. Note, it is the relationship between the two which produces the meaning, not merely the other being present, not just the opposoite aspect itself. That relationship is unique to each situation, unique to the two aspects it lies between, but underlying it, it consists of the fabric of everything---which imo, is meaning.

Yin and yang are simply dependent on each other to allow the tao to flourish between them both and be eachother's source of meaning. For there is no state in which something is meaningless. That is the mystery of Tao. Taoism isn't about opposites. It is about the relationship between them, and that relationship sustains both and gives both the grandest of meaning.


Life, especially life in which there is a self and a self that is aware (aka, a human), suffering could most definitely be prominent. But only if you let the self-awareness take control. Too much acknowledgement will fog the glasses for sure. But possessing the ability to acknowledge in-itself is a prime component for Tao to be. Tao is very precise. We tend to hear all that jazz of the nameless tao being within everything and being the way to everything....but the way in which it is "the way" has a formula so to speak. In short, if something IS, I'll call "A", then there MUST exist something which IS THAT (again the mystery of Tao), I'll call "B." Now, if there is something which IS THAT, then there MUST exist That WHICH IT IS NOT--namely, the opposite, which I'll call "C."

Tao is made up of all three parts. I mean just look at its symbol. The opposites schools speak of isn't the Yin and the Yang. It isn't the large black and the large white.  No, those are the originations of the birth of meaning for one another.

If there is anything...let me use Yin, "A", for this case, Then there must exist that which is Yin, "B",---This is the seed of yin, or the little black circle within the large white part (Yang). Now, if there exists a "B" which is that "A" then there must exist a "C" which is what the "B" is not.

So If there is yin (a) there must be a seed of yin (b). If there is a seed of yin (b) there must be the opposite, that which the seed of yin is not--Yang (c). And vice versa for yang.

So really the opposites are the small black circle and the large white (seed of yin and yang) and the small white circle and the large black) (seed of yang and yin).

Thus the extension of Yin, is that which produces yang. And the extension of yang, is that which produces yin. Once both are there, Tao takes "form" so to speak (though since it manifests in an infinite amount of manifestations, it is formless).

Cultivating Tao, is really just allowing the extension of anything that is, to yield the origin of the original something. And not only are the two aspects the origin of the Tao between them (and thus the origin of meaning for one another), but they are also the negation.
And even within The symbol itself, there is the three parts. Yin, yang, and everything as a whole.  All three of these parts play eachothers roles just at different times. When yin reaches the top it becomes yang, and so forth.

This idea is no different then with paradoxes. Paradoxes are not two conflicting truths, they are one truth and one falsehood, and one reality of the situation. The mystery and profoundness behind paradoxes that most people don't seem to get, is that each part of the paradox plays the role of the other, simply at a different point in time. The truth becomes the falsehood and the falsehood the truth. The reality then changes.


So to say life is suffereing, to me at least, is absurd. The ego is a blessing...it is a vessel in which meaning can arise for the state in which there is no self, because that state can not be meaningful on its own. It needs life to do that for it. It gives that state meaning by being the origination of the Tao between the two aspects. Tao can then flourish within each one. The ego, used to acknowledge things which place you too far into one aspect of the manifestations of tao, is certainly trouble, and most of the world does this to our egos. But the idea of life and the ego itself, is beautiful, and allows another manifestation of Tao to occur by producing the second aspect within this particular Tao circle.



The state of nothingness often talked abut is just one asepct right now. The other, is our lives. And it doesn't seem clear at all because we don't cultivate the way like recluses do in the mountains. But that doesn't mean that the lifeless state is the more prominent state. No, it is the relationship between both. It is the Tao, which gives both meaning. And neither state could be there in the first place to even take grasp of becoming meaningful without the presence of the other.

Calling Tao "the way" may have been fine for the ancient chinese, because they knew what it meant. We can't honestly believe that we have done a fine enough job translating the taoist txts. And I think it is due to not even understanding the word, "tao" itself.  I like to call it the principle of dependence, because it really was a principle just as much as our principle of causality. The chinese learned this through observation, and in observing they were able to formulate how it comes about...which is precise. But what exactly comes about-Tao- is formless for it is manifested within, between, above and below everything.

The state of which you spoke in the last paragraph, I would call tao itself. And we will exist as that state at some point, because each of the three aspects play each other's role. But all three are required. And thus all 3 of importance. You can not suffer if you both are full of meaning and bestow meaning unto that which you are not.

Why must things posses meaning? Because to me, that is the source of all things. That is what Tao provides.
But hey, thats just my view in a nutshell


Edited by TheMule73 (01/02/13 10:39 PM)

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Re: Depression [Re: TheMule73]
    #17489865 -

those who know do not speak

:ahahaha:

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Re: Depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #17489889 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
I feel like i'm just wandering through life right now with no real long term goals other then get a good job, earn as much money as i can, and slowly rot like the rest of the grey haired suits in this country.  Is this really the best way to live?  What would be the best way to live?

I'm so fucking lost in my life right now.  There are so many damn choices i can't make up my mind, so i just wander along... wandering and avoiding making any decision at all as the anxiety of making choices haunts me.  A career, a wife a this a that... it's all so much pressure and i don't know what i want.  I don't know what to do.  I used to just go with the flow, but now i'm lost.



I think they make OUT there's choices but really they are not radical alternative choices but choices like the voting system which whichever way you vote you get the same old shit.

It is like digital TV with all its channels. This is supposed to be 'choice' but hey take a look and you see the same old shit and the same ads pushin the same old shit. NO REAL choice at all.

It is called MONO-culture. They impose their toxic shit on the land and on the culture and on our bodies and minds. This is why millions of kids have to go to the schools and go through that regimentation indoctrination, and if your in any way 'different' in these places you not only have the stress of the deadening system to contend with, but also other kids who wanna take out their shit (because remember they are oppressed too, but many aren't even allowed to KNOW they are because of the internalization of the system)on those they see as weak.

IF you do go the route of wife and kids be aware that you entrench yourself more into their control freakery. This is sad but true. because you then are having to be more responsible which means you need more money and that is their power over us--MONEY. So from tyhere they have you running around in their rat race trying to get more and more and more so as to seem authentic in the monoculture which means the big TV, the abcde, then the kids believe they need abcde, and so it goes.

LOL. Yeah its a fuck up. I have no answers but to be aware of it.

What I would LIKE is people undermining it, and getting together in community living where they practice permaculture, and helping each other with healing inspired with psychedelics---stuff like that

It is refusing the PATTERN of what reality is supposed to be by a sick-fuck war-mongering and ecocidal mindset, and creating your own with support of other people who feel the same...

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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17490289 -

Icelander said:
Cognitive_Shift said:
I feel like i'm just wandering through life right now with no real long term goals other then get a good job, earn as much money as i can, and slowly rot like the rest of the grey haired suits in this country.  Is this really the best way to live?  What would be the best way to live?

I'm so fucking lost in my life right now.  There are so many damn choices i can't make up my mind, so i just wander along... wandering and avoiding making any decision at all as the anxiety of making choices haunts me.  A career, a wife a this a that... it's all so much pressure and i don't know what i want.  I don't know what to do.  I used to just go with the flow, but now i'm lost.




Seems about normal.



What did you do ice?  You were my age once, maybe not from the same city or even the same state but you were once my age.  How do you live your life in a way which makes you feel fulfilled, appreciated and happy?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #17490309 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
Icelander said:
Cognitive_Shift said:
I feel like i'm just wandering through life right now with no real long term goals other then get a good job, earn as much money as i can, and slowly rot like the rest of the grey haired suits in this country.  Is this really the best way to live?  What would be the best way to live?

I'm so fucking lost in my life right now.  There are so many damn choices i can't make up my mind, so i just wander along... wandering and avoiding making any decision at all as the anxiety of making choices haunts me.  A career, a wife a this a that... it's all so much pressure and i don't know what i want.  I don't know what to do.  I used to just go with the flow, but now i'm lost.




Seems about normal.



What did you do ice?  You were my age once, maybe not from the same city or even the same state but you were once my age.  How do you live your life in a way which makes you feel fulfilled, appreciated and happy?




I was and am adrift my whole life.  I wandered.  I hitchhiked with a backpack a lot.  I worked at any easy part time job and saved some money and then split for the road and wilderness areas.  I hung out with hippies, or martial arts folk, and took lots of drugs and played around. I pursued no career or studies.  I just headed for any place that sounded interesting to me. Feeling fulfilled never really happened,  being appreciated came in drips and drabs,  and as for happy, drips and drabs too.  Now that I look back on it all with the perspective of age and seeing all the people in the world, I did the right thing.  Now here I am hanging out with you.  My life is my own as much as one can say that in culture.  Looking back I would have to say if there was a path it was the path of knowing and seeing what was right there in front of me all the time. And that is not a road to happiness, but it is a road to a kind of  freedom. But it's a hard road a lot of the time.  Take that for what it's worth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Depression [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #17490693 -

TheMule,

There is nothing about your post which I find disagreeable on a conceptual level, yet you are speaking so objectively about something so esoteric and immediate.  This is maddening to behold.  What you're describing is encoded in every phenomenological process happening all around us right now, crashing down all around us all the time, forever and ever and ever.  So why are you still searching?


zzripz,

>> those who know do not speak

The great irony is that the person responsible for this line wrote five thousand characters on the subject.  Every single character, every single paragraph, was surrounding the fundamental point.  Not stating, not describing, not thrusting, just exemplifying.  It is so wonderful.


Cognitive_Shift,

>> I feel like i'm just wandering through life right now with no real long term goals other then get a good job, earn as much money as i can, and slowly rot like the rest of the grey haired suits in this country.  Is this really the best way to live?  What would be the best way to live?

>> I'm so fucking lost in my life right now.  There are so many damn choices i can't make up my mind, so i just wander along... wandering and avoiding making any decision at all as the anxiety of making choices haunts me.  A career, a wife a this a that... it's all so much pressure and i don't know what i want.  I don't know what to do.  I used to just go with the flow, but now i'm lost.

Look at us, bantering about in your thread with self-indulgent musings about the nature of life, reality, and existence.  Look at us, using your sincere outpouring of grief and confusion, your reaching out for sense amid such a crushing mire of senselessness, as a mere platform for our own intellectual and spiritual flatulence.

The truth is, my friend: we have no idea how to help you.  We are too busy trying to help ourselves out of the same mess.  We are right beside you, buddy, shoulder to shoulder, stuck in the same exact predicament as you.  Sure, there's lots of people who can't admit this, and there's probably going to be some people who take issue with my speaking for them, but you and I know they're just in denial.  You and I know that the bottom line is this: not a single person here has managed to compile so much as a sentence which has functioned to dislodge you from this state of anxious despair even to the slightest degree.  Looking back through this entire thread, all you can see are examples of how other people have been trying to cope with the same problem.

I myself have spent perhaps a dozen hours contemplating, reflecting, puzzling, and writing, trying to liberate you.  But you haven't budged one bit.  Why?  Because we're caught in the same quicksand.  You and I, and every other person in this thread, and every other person in your life, and every other person not in your life, is caught in the same quicksand.  Taken together, this thread represents perhaps hundreds of hours of effort.  Has their been one iota of progress?  Has there been anything but trite, "well, I guess so" steps forward for you?  Taken together, this human world represents untold millions of hours of effort, people throughout the ages trying to solve the puzzle of their own suffering.  And what has come of it, save for Deepak Chopra and the rest of the charlatans crawling around?

Honestly, I'd like to meet you.  You've got this huge reservoir of compassion sealed up behind this Hoover-sized concrete dam of depression and loathing.  The world needs more people like you.  More than that, though, the world needs more people like you to crack, flooding the planet with your cool waters.

Until then, I guess you're going to keep holding it together.  Power to you.  In fact, I think you should put even more effort into holding it together.  Yeah, if you're going to be depressed, man, just be depressed.  Don't do anything else.  Don't eat, don't sleep, don't post, don't think, just sit there in one spot and be depressed.  Give it everything you've got.

I'll see you at the bottom, friend, with a hug and a slap on the face.  Much love to you.

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Re: Depression [Re: Ped]
    #17490706 -


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Re: Depression [Re: Icelander]
    #17491323 -

Icelander said:
I was and am adrift my whole life.  I wandered.  I hitchhiked with a backpack a lot.  I worked at any easy part time job and saved some money and then split for the road and wilderness areas.  I hung out with hippies, or martial arts folk, and took lots of drugs and played around. I pursued no career or studies.  I just headed for any place that sounded interesting to me. Feeling fulfilled never really happened,  being appreciated came in drips and drabs,  and as for happy, drips and drabs too.  Now that I look back on it all with the perspective of age and seeing all the people in the world, I did the right thing.  Now here I am hanging out with you.  My life is my own as much as one can say that in culture.  Looking back I would have to say if there was a path it was the path of knowing and seeing what was right there in front of me all the time. And that is not a road to happiness, but it is a road to a kind of  freedom. But it's a hard road a lot of the time.  Take that for what it's worth.



Sounds pretty good. I plan on something at least close to this, perhaps with more stays in the same place every once in a while, maybe have some kids at some point when I'm done wondering.

My first psychedelic festival this year, the travel there and back, the people I met and the time I spent on the little tent on the hill, with other little tents on the hill, were actually truly happy times. I don't only look back as if that time is gone, I also look forward, knowing that next year it will come again. Different hill and different DJ perhaps, but that's less important.

I spent a lot of time being depressed, antisocial, afraid of people, even considered offing myself when I was 14 (very nearly jumped from an 8th story window because of some girl) and so on. Having seen how other, non-depressed people do it, I see that some of the difference comes from having a warmer emotional climate in early life, and others just learned how to play it right in adulthood. This last part seems most relevant, for people who are still depressed.

There very likely are many ways for you to play life right and get to enjoy it. It's not the same thing for everybody, for some it's family, for some it's art, work or some personal mission or whatever, but absolutely there are ways to thrive and enjoy life. Short of some serious chemical imbalance in the brain, everybody has the ability to chill, enjoy and thrive.

Quote:
And what has come of it, save for Deepak Chopra and the rest of the charlatans crawling around?



Why is Deepak Chopra a charlatan? I've learned some awesome stuff from some of his lectures, like about the doshas in ayurveda. Never seen them explained better anywhere else.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16

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Re: Depression [Re: Spacerific]
    #17491412 -

>> Why is Deepak Chopra a charlatan? I've learned some awesome stuff from some of his lectures

I was speaking directly to Cognitive_Shift.  This counts.

But since you asked (and since I can't resist undressing someone so obviously and transparently well-dressed as Chopra),

Simply because someone is a charlatan does not mean that there is nothing to learn from them, nor does it mean that all of what they say is empty.  A charlatan is someone claiming to have special knowledge or skill where no such special knowledge or skill actually exists.  It does not take special knowledge or skill to present lectures from which people learn awesome stuff, but Deepak Chopra would have us believe that he possesses special knowledge and skill.  This is by design.  Those who come away from his lectures and writings having learned awesome stuff also come away feeling that Deepak Chopra has special knowledge or skill.  This is by design.  In fact, he has based his life of material glut on such design.  This qualifies him as a charlatan.

If Deepak Chopra were sincere to his spiritual claims, this kind of thing would not aggregate around his personality.

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