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Shop: North Spore Bulk Substrate, Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17471379 -

:plutonic:


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:wizard::deemsters:

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17471390 -

I dunno I haven't seen him for a good while either now that you mention it..  I also haven't been visiting PS&P as much as I usually do though and that's where I normally see him post.  I was once lucky to make a thread that ended up with him and Diploid debating on, among other things, whether or not the universe was static.  Lots of great info in that one.

It would be awesome to have another physics genius to answer all our dumb questions and set us straight though!  Get on it!

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472300 -

Quantam mechanics is pseudo science.

It is fundamentally based on assumptions.... i wouldnt even call it science at all more like science fiction.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Shins]
    #17472331 -

Why should that even matter?
That takes me back to my point of how progress works.
People used to think the world was flat and other false things.
Quantum physics isn't just assumption, there are real tests and experiments and results being seen.

It almost seems you guys are talking down on the art of experimentation itself.


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I need Jesus.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: thoughts]
    #17472376 -

superposition is one big assumption with no solid evidence.

It cannot be repeated, and it cannot be tested.

quantum physics has not been established scientifically.

It is a fantasy and any results are incidental.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Shins]
    #17472393 -

Lol the foundation of quantum mechanics is as real as relativity or the standard model..  Just because there are holes that need working out doesn't mean it's not an established and true theory.  Sure some things may get tinkered with over time, but the general foundation of quantum mechanics is a very real thing and the furthest away from pseudoscience one can get.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472418 -

And quantum superpositions are a real and tested thing.  They've made several small scale quantum computers that operate using particles in a superposition.  As a result of this, the computing power of a fullscale quantum bit computer would be exponentially higher than a classical bit computer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer

Quote:
Although quantum computing is still in its infancy, experiments have been carried out in which quantum computational operations were executed on a very small number of qubits (quantum bits). Both practical and theoretical research continues, and many national government and military funding agencies support quantum computing research to develop quantum computers for both civilian and national security purposes, such as cryptanalysis.[4]



The double slit experiment is another experiment that laymans can understand that absolutely verifies quantum mechanics.  They have also entangled particles as well and it has been proven too.

Edited by Midnight_Toker (12/30/12 05:26 PM)

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472437 -

that was a nice opinion. but in terms of facts, super position cannot be tested and it has not been proven scientifically.

if you would like to prove me wrong by showing me scientific evidence go ahead, but you just saying its true has absolutely no scientific value.

The observer effect makes observing superposition impossible.

there is literally no hard evidence at all that superpositions exist, it is all fantasy.

They lacked an ability to observe what happenes during the double slit experiment and said "well everything happened"

this assumption is based on their lack of ability to make scientific observations.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472443 -

Midnight_Toker said:
And quantum superpositions are a real and tested thing.  They've made several small scale quantum computers that operate using particles in a superposition.  As a result of this, the computing power of a fullscale quantum bit computer would be exponentially higher than a classical bit computer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer

Quote:
Although quantum computing is still in its infancy, experiments have been carried out in which quantum computational operations were executed on a very small number of qubits (quantum bits). Both practical and theoretical research continues, and many national government and military funding agencies support quantum computing research to develop quantum computers for both civilian and national security purposes, such as cryptanalysis.[4]







Virtual reality.

exactly what quantum mechanics is... virtual reality.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Shins]
    #17472445 -

I edited my above post.  The double slit experiment is proof dude what are you talking about..

What does virtual reality have to do with quantum mechanics?  Even if the universe were a hologram it wouldn't make a difference as to whether or not quantum physics is real to us or not.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Shins]
    #17472460 -

The whole point of the double slit experiment shows that the universe doesn't inherently operate in the way we perceive it when we aren't perceiving it.  Everything DOES happen!  They can be both particles and waves.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472467 -

Midnight_Toker said:
I edited my above post.  The double slit experiment is proof dude what are you talking about..


it is not proof, how is it proof?

the observer effect renders the double slit experiment useless at making scientific observations.

they made no observations of, and found no real evidence of superpositions.

instead due to their lack of evidence they assumed superpositions INSTEAD of real scientific observation and evidence.

the double slit experiment does not prove superpositions at all:

the observer effect renders making observations impossible in the double slit experiment.

"superpositions" is not a scientific discovery, it was an assumption some people made because they lacked real evidence.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472490 -

Midnight_Toker said:
The whole point of the double slit experiment shows that the universe doesn't inherently operate in the way we perceive it when we aren't perceiving it.  Everything DOES happen!  They can be both particles and waves.


just because we cannot observe what actually happens does not mean; therefore "Everything DOES happen! "

all it means is that we are currently unable to observe what really happens.

do you really believe that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it that the tree exists suspended in a magic quantum superposition?  or do you believe that the tree actually fell normally but just no one saw it?

quantam mechanics assumes the former without any scientific proof.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Shins]
    #17472495 -

Shins said:
Midnight_Toker said:
I edited my above post.  The double slit experiment is proof dude what are you talking about..


it is not proof, how is it proof?

the observer effect renders the double slit experiment useless at making scientific observations.

they made no observations of, and found no real evidence of superpositions.

instead due to their lack of evidence they assumed superpositions INSTEAD of real scientific observation and evidence.

the double slit experiment does not prove superpositions at all:

the observer effect renders making observations impossible in the double slit experiment.

"superpositions" is not a scientific discovery, it was an assumption some people made because they lacked real evidence.


I don't understand how you come up with that conclusion.  They made their observations of the finished results after the particle beam was turned off..  They discovered that when not making an observation the result is different than when they do observe the beam firing.

And it's not about what I believe, it's about what the science says, and science says particles can be both waves and particles.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472502 -

Midnight_Toker said:
They discovered that when not making an observation the result is different than when they do observe the beam firing.


that is good proof of the observer effect, but it does not prove superpositions AT ALL

All that it proves is that their observation equipment as an effect on the experiment.  The equipment needs to introduce photons into the experiment in order to observe it which effects the outcome of the experiment.


none of that proves that things that are not observed exist in a state of quantum superposition.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Shins]
    #17472511 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition#Experiments_and_applications

Just read some stuff man I don't get how you're coming to these conclusions.  Quantum theory and relativity go together hand in hand ( almost like they were made for each other!)  I have lots of proof but you are just talking shit about the theory for some unknown reason.  Are you religious?  Not meant in a rude way but I know it's useless trying to talk science with a religious person.

The universe is a wild and wacky thing dude, and we can't ever claim to understand the implications of why the universe is the way it is, but this is, in fact, the way it is.  No doot aboot it.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Shins]
    #17472521 -

Shins said:
Midnight_Toker said:
The whole point of the double slit experiment shows that the universe doesn't inherently operate in the way we perceive it when we aren't perceiving it.  Everything DOES happen!  They can be both particles and waves.


just because we cannot observe what actually happens does not mean; therefore "Everything DOES happen! "

all it means is that we are currently unable to observe what really happens.

do you really believe that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it that the tree exists suspended in a magic quantum superposition?  or do you believe that the tree actually fell normally but just no one saw it?

quantam mechanics assumes the former without any scientific proof.


Well that just goes to show that you're also unqualified to speak about this topic. If a tree falls in the forest, a tree falls in the forest. Doesn't matter if anyone sees it or not. That isn't what quantum superposition is about at all.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Caine]
    #17472531 -

You're grasping at straws here and I don't understand what you're trying to say.  It has been proven man.  Quantum computers have been made.  They wouldn't work if the qubits weren't in a superposition lol.  That's experimental proof, and only one piece of the several proofs I linked to you above.  It's you vs. science right now so who's going to win?

Edit:  Sorry I just noticed you aren't the same person I've been debating, but the comment can still stand.  By the way though I said nothing about the tree in the forest in relation to quantum mechanics..  That was Shins argument.

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Midnight_Toker]
    #17472616 -

Midnight_Toker said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition#Experiments_and_applications

Just read some stuff man I don't get how you're coming to these conclusions.



i have stated several times why quantum superposition cannot be proven scientifically.... did you just ignore all of that?


Quote:
I have lots of proof but you are just talking shit about the theory for some unknown reason. 


THEN SHOW YOUR PROOF!

all you are doing is speaking your opinion which is of no scientific value.


Quote:
Are you religious?  Not meant in a rude way but I know it's useless trying to talk science with a religious person.


no im not.

is quantum mechancis almost like a religion to you?  think about that one hard.

are YOU religous about QM?

Quote:
The universe is a wild and wacky thing dude, and we can't ever claim to understand the implications of why the universe is the way it is, but this is, in fact, the way it is.  No doot aboot it.


again, your words and opinion is of no scientific value.

show me how you prove that superposition exists.

I have looked at the double slit experiment in great detail and to any scientist without a financial grant some other horse in the race, it is shown that superposition does not have a proper scientific foundation.


It was concieved due to the fundamental problem of making REAL scientific observations in the double slit experiment.

they concluded "supoerpositions" because their power to scientifically observe what REALLY happens failed.

the observer effect rendered making true observations about the double lit experiment impossible.

trying to observe the interference pattern fundamentally collapsed it.

we have made no real observations about what really happens in a double slit interference pattern because wqhen you try to onserve the interference pattern it collapses, thus making observing it impossible.


this does not prove superpositions.  it proves that the observer effect makes observing the single particles in  double slit interference pattern impossible. 



again its a calassic question of: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear, does it really fall?


quantum mechanincs ASSUMES that the tree exists suspended in an infinite quantam state of superposition.

Of course there is no way to prove this because supposedly once someone actually observes the three the superposition collapses - how convienient.


I say fuck that nonsense, I refuse to ASSUME that the tree magically transmutes into some infinite singularity just because I was not there to hear it fall.

This thought that I, the observer am the one who determines if the tree fell or not simply by observing it is very ego-centric and  self-important view.  you are not the center of the universe, and whether or not you personally observe something does not determine whether or not it exists independently of your observations.

This is also true in the double slit experiment.  just because we cannot observe what really happens does not mean that something is not happening independent of our observations.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (12/30/12 06:12 PM)

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Re: How quantum mechanics show nothing is "real", it's all in our minds, thoughts manifested. [Re: Caine]
    #17472660 -

Caine said:
Well that just goes to show that you're also unqualified to speak about this topic. If a tree falls in the forest, a tree falls in the forest. Doesn't matter if anyone sees it or not. That isn't what quantum superposition is about at all.



yes it is, the rest of the question states: "and if no one was around it did it really fall?

the question of if it really fell is in doubt here,  it has not yet been established that the tree fell...

the question is if no one observes the any random tree fall, does it really fall?

quantum mechanics says it exists in some magical state of superposition,

I say we just did not observe it so we dont know, but it definitely is existing as either fallen or standing irregardless of if we observe it or not.

observing something does not break it out of some magical superposition quantum state and determine on the spot whether or not it fell.

the tree either stood or fell independent of out observations. 

thinking that our own observations are what determine reality, and that reality does not go on and exist independent of our observations is quantum mechanic bullshit.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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