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the new trinity
    #17353012 -

Wellp, here we go...

I think that the true Holy Trinity is the God, the Self, and the Other.

I think the God can't be denied. As an aspiring scientist, I can't help but notice that reality falls into a consistently rational order, even when it takes an organized struggle by many people to elucidate that order. I don't know what God is, I can't comment on Its nature, but I feel that I have experienced It during certain moments of my life. It's never predictable, but in retrospect, there It is. It seems to happen with an overwhelming frequency during psychedelic experiences and nature excursions. There seems to be a pre-human rationality at work in all our experiences, self-directed or otherwise, that can't be denied but only affirmed by even (and often especially) the most hardened atheists.

The Self is quite well-fastened-in on the road to total divinity. We each refer to Our Self with the capitalized "I", representing Its status as the pillar of existence, even as It remains arbitrarily separated from Its architects. This is an incomplete grammar. We often refer to our own anatomy as something distinct from Ourselves, as if it is a subject or a king, but not owned, and always according to the rules of Our conditioning. And for some reason, I "myself" am not capitalized. "I" get more reverence than "me". "I" am a unique object and First Cause, but the delineated subject is "me". I believe this incomplete conception of the Self is caused by the absence of divinity afforded the Other.

The Other is certainly much like the God and the Self: Its true motivations are unknowable and Its ways are mysterious, and We are subject to It. It deserves the same respect as the Creator ("God") and the Self ("I") and so whenever given the chance, "You" and other words directly relating the Other should be capitalized. You should be recognized as the source of creation, like God, and its total of supportive architecture, the many pillars that mutually enable the Self. You should always be treated with the respect and adoration generally reserved for the God and the Self and the Self's relations (demonstrated already via the capitalization of names).

If You are not extant and in fact paramount, what the hell am I doing here? We already capitalize the names of Others, so what do We get from the undifferentiated, unremarkable "you"? Nothing but stereotyped dismissal. I believe this capitalization of names but not direct reference serves only to quarantine the dynamicism of Selfhood You represent.

And anyway, fuck that "father and son" bullshit. I suspect it was concocted by people who had the same general idea but were cripplingly misogynistic. "Women don't exist. :kingtard:"


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (12/07/12 11:32 PM)

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Re: the new trinity [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17353714 -

Quote:
I think that the true Holy Trinity is the God, the Self, and the Other


Exactly. This is the concept I have had about it myself and still do.


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It's fine.

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Re: the new trinity [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17353715 -

BlindSophist said:
Wellp, here we go...

I think that the true Holy Trinity is the God, the Self, and the Other.



The first is correct the 2nd and 3rd are false. The self must be brought into union with the 2nd Person, Christ (who is God), by the 3rd person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. Without this you have no communion with God and his divine energies.

BlindSophist said:
I think the God can't be denied. As an aspiring scientist, I can't help but notice that reality falls into a consistently rational order, even when it takes an organized struggle by many people to elucidate that order. I don't know what God is, I can't comment on Its nature, but I feel that I have experienced It during certain moments of my life. It's never predictable, but in retrospect, there It is. It seems to happen with an overwhelming frequency during psychedelic experiences and nature excursions. There seems to be a pre-human rationality at work in all our experiences, self-directed or otherwise, that can't be denied but only affirmed by even (and often especially) the most hardened atheists.




True, God is perfect rationality, we are made in God's Image so that means we are on the same frequency as God. What you are explaining however is a God whom you cannot understand, "the unknown God" as it says in the Scripture (Acts 17:23). If we do not have the proper understanding of God we cannot have true faith in God. We must have a "rock" and "pillar" to believe in, that rock and pillar is Christ. Christ tells us about God and opens the door to Him.


BlindSophist said:
The Self is quite well-fastened-in on the road to total divinity. We each refer to Our Self with the capitalized "I", representing Its status as the pillar of existence, even as It remains arbitrarily separated from Its architects. This is an incomplete grammar. We often refer to our own anatomy as something distinct from Ourselves, as if it is a subject or a king, but not owned, and always according to the rules of Our conditioning. And for some reason, I "myself" am not capitalized. "I" get more reverence than "me". "I" am a unique object and First Cause, but the delineated subject is "me". I believe this incomplete conception of the Self is caused by the absence of divinity afforded the Other.





The Self as you explain also is unknown. Without Christology and the Person of Christ we cannot affiliate ourselves with God or understand who we are. It is only through Christ that we can become like God, as St Athanasius said, "God became a man so that man might become gods." Through grace of course, not that we are gods by our own merit, its because of the Work of Christ.


BlindSophist said:
The Other is certainly much like the God and the Self: Its true motivations are unknowable and Its ways are mysterious, and We are subject to It. It deserves the same respect as the Creator ("God") and the Self ("I") and so whenever given the chance, "You" and other words directly relating the Other should be capitalized. You should be recognized as the source of creation, like God, and its total of supportive architecture, the many pillars that mutually enable the Self. You should always be treated with the respect and adoration generally reserved for the God and the Self and the Self's relations (demonstrated already via the capitalization of names).



Once again "The Other" is a God whom you cannot know and have no idea of, "the unknown god" (Acts 17:23). What you are thinking of is the Holy Spirit, who is real and near to us because of Jesus Christ.


BlindSophist said:
If You are not extant and in fact paramount, what the hell am I doing here? We already capitalize the names of Others, so what do We get from the undifferentiated, unremarkable "you"? Nothing but stereotyped dismissal. I believe this capitalization of names but not direct reference serves only to quarantine the dynamicism of Selfhood You represent.




The Selfhood you speak of must be brought into union with the Grace of Christ. It is Christ who lifts us up to be with God.

BlindSophist said:
And anyway, fuck that "father and son" bullshit. I suspect it was concocted by people who had the same general idea but were cripplingly misogynistic. "Women don't exist. :kingtard:"



You're not understanding the meaning of "son". There is no male or female in Christ, there is only God. God has no gender, that is why St Paul said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)


In Christ there is no gender. He only came as a man because that was the form he had to take. We call him "The Son" because there is no other way to explain him.

Edited by TheWiseBecameFools (12/08/12 03:22 AM)

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Re: the new trinity [Re: TheWiseBecameFools]
    #17353836 -

I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said. I consider it generally to be true and beautiful. I consider myself a "cultural Christian", and more specifically, very strongly Protestant. I was raised agnostic, but the Protestantism runs strong in me, to the extent that I wish to discard orthodoxy altogether in favor of a maximally integrative understanding and dispersal of the Gospel.

This is why I harp on the trinity. If there's no gender in Christ, then why are we beholden to these gendered descriptions, Father and Son? If this understanding of the relationship that I described as "God and Self" is so suitably non-gendered, why do we not say "Parent and Child"? Granted it doesn't have the same ring to it, but that's the fault of our culture and language, not of the underlying message.

As I see it, the voice of the feminine in Christianity has been subjugated to the extent that it is that of a ghost. Many parts of the Bible are narrated by the feminine, yet we render Her down to abstraction and Her name is translated as the uncapitalized and gender-neutral "wisdom". It means nothing that the Father and the Son are without gender if we refer to them in the masculine while reducing the feminine to the status of ghost. There is no place in my life for the Christianity that marginalizes femininity or punishes deviation from the ancient paternalistic description of divinity. These are things that Christianity does, and this is a crucial part of why I don't generally identify as "Christian". It's a materialistic appraisal, and it disappoints me, but I just can't reconcile my values or my understanding of Christ with what Christianity does. I see Christ as the radical, transcendental force of indestructible love, not as this browbeating pedantry.

Again, I find most of what you said true and beautiful, but I just can't cotton to the orthodoxy. "Agree with my wording or go to hell" is the underlying subtext, and no. Just no. I don't believe in eternal salvation or perdition. One can't exist without the other. There are many paths to truth and beauty, and although Christ is mine, I can't, won't, don't believe Christ is the only one, nor can I say that your choice of wording is adequate of Christ. I'd rather go to hell than spend my eternity with a God who rewards my faith while tossing my friends into the fire. Nor will I try to convert my friends to what I consider an ancient and flawed description of a flawless universal truth. I would rather place my faith in whatever limited understanding I've been granted. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (12/08/12 05:27 AM)

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Re: the new trinity [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17354139 -

BlindSophist said:
I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you said. I consider it generally to be true and beautiful. I consider myself a "cultural Christian", and more specifically, very strongly Protestant. I was raised agnostic, but the Protestantism runs strong in me, to the extent that I wish to discard orthodoxy altogether in favor of a maximally integrative understanding and dispersal of the Gospel.

This is why I harp on the trinity. If there's no gender in Christ, then why are we beholden to these gendered descriptions, Father and Son? If this understanding of the relationship that I described as "God and Self" is so suitably non-gendered, why do we not say "Parent and Child"? Granted it doesn't have the same ring to it, but that's the fault of our culture and language, not of the underlying message.





As I see it, the voice of the feminine in Christianity has been subjugated to the extent that it is that of a ghost. Many parts of the Bible are narrated by the feminine, yet we render Her down to abstraction and Her name is translated as the uncapitalized and gender-neutral "wisdom". It means nothing that the Father and the Son are without gender if we refer to them in the masculine while reducing the feminine to the status of ghost. There is no place in my life for the Christianity that marginalizes femininity or punishes deviation from the ancient paternalistic description of divinity. These are things that Christianity does, and this is a crucial part of why I don't generally identify as "Christian". It's a materialistic appraisal, and it disappoints me, but I just can't reconcile my values or my understanding of Christ with what Christianity does. I see Christ as the radical, transcendental force of indestructible love, not as this browbeating pedantry.

Again, I find most of what you said true and beautiful, but I just can't cotton to the orthodoxy. "Agree with my wording or go to hell" is the underlying subtext, and no. Just no. I don't believe in eternal salvation or perdition. One can't exist without the other. There are many paths to truth and beauty, and although Christ is mine, I can't, won't, don't believe Christ is the only one, nor can I say that your choice of wording is adequate of Christ. I'd rather go to hell than spend my eternity with a God who rewards my faith while tossing my friends into the fire. Nor will I try to convert my friends to what I consider an ancient and flawed description of a flawless universal truth. I would rather place my faith in whatever limited understanding I've been granted. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.




Everyone even Christians are by nature tossed into the fire since all are sinners, and nobody is better than anyone else because all have to die in the body. Christians are only special in the sense that they are alive in the Spirit and can have their sins forgiven while still in the body. In my tradition, we believe God can save people even if they have not received Jesus while they were alive.

Christ is a masculine mainly because it was Adam a male who was the first created man and Jesus is the New Adam who saves us from Ancestral Sin. What's wrong with that, are you some sort of feminist? Even if you were Jesus can be said to be composed of both male and female characteristics. He is called the "Wisdom of God" by St Paul, and in the Bible "Wisdom" has a femenine meaning to it.

If you don't believe that Jesus was an actual person, but as you said a "transcendental force of indestructible love" that is not Christian but antichristian. If you start saying "God and Self" instead of "God and Son", then  have just denied the entire Gospel Message of Jesus Christ and in no wise can label yourself as "Christian". And there are no other ways to God except through Jesus, doesn't matter if he's male or female or an alien, he is what he is. Just like in the Old Testament, God said "I AM THAT I AM", so also did Jesus say "I AM".


Last but not least, if you want a more feminized Gospel, you have to look no further than Ancient Traditional Churches of the Christian Faith which taught that Mary was the "Mother of God" (Greek word "Theotokos") and was and still is highly revered in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I personally belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church and in my tradition there is a hymn which speaks of the Virgin Mary as follows,

"It is truly right to call thee blest, O Theotokos the ever blessed, thou who art most pure and all immaculate and the Mother of our God. More honourable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who without corruption didst give birth to God the Word, the very Theotokos, thee do we magnify"



In Greek Orthodox Church this hymn is sung every Sunday Liturgy (mass).



Christian theology does not discriminate the sexes, the Protestant Faith you are familiar with may make you think it does, but it doesn't. Just look to the Churches of Ancient Tradition and you will see The Truth which God has given to the human race for all ages and generations.

Edited by TheWiseBecameFools (12/08/12 08:24 AM)

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Re: the new trinity [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17354263 -

BlindSophist said:
I think the God can't be denied. As an aspiring scientist, I can't help but notice that reality falls into a consistently rational order, even when it takes an organized struggle by many people to elucidate that order.


That doesn't sound very scientific. Just because there is order that's so complex we can't fully understand does not automatically imply God. The theory of evolution is a good example of how something we thought must have been designed because of it's complexity, could have arisen without any designer from a relatively simple mechanism working over an huge time frame. I dunno how you jump to the conclusion that "God can't be denied" just because you have intuitive feelings and the universe is complex n shit. :confused:

I feel like when using words such as God, we have to have a stable definition or else the word becomes meaningless. I think "an entity that created the universe" works best. I don't see how this is undeniable.

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Re: the new trinity [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #17354277 -

I thought this was going to be about drugs, even though it's in this forum :lol:

The new holy trinity:
- Psilocybin
- Mescaline
- 2CE

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Re: the new trinity [Re: nooneman]
    #17355063 -

Wow, I get really carried away sometimes. :facepalm:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: the new trinity [Re: nooneman]
    #17355194 -

nooneman said:
I thought this was going to be about drugs, even though it's in this forum :lol:

The new holy trinity:
- Psilocybin
- Mescaline
- 2CE


How about the legal drug trinity?

- Caffeine
- Alcohol
- Nicotine



lol, ew on the nicotine though.

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Re: the new trinity [Re: TheWiseBecameFools]
    #17355267 -

In the end it is just me, myself and I... alone in the fantasy world of my imagination.


--------------------
It's fine.

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Re: the new trinity [Re: TheWiseBecameFools]
    #17355294 -

TheWiseBecameFools said:
nooneman said:
I thought this was going to be about drugs, even though it's in this forum :lol:

The new holy trinity:
- Psilocybin
- Mescaline
- 2CE


How about the legal drug trinity?

- Caffeine
- Alcohol
- Nicotine



lol, ew on the nicotine though.


Some of the non-smoke stuff like snus aint bad in moderation.

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Re: the new trinity [Re: cbub]
    #17355360 -

cbub said:
In the end it is just me, myself and I... alone in the fantasy world of my imagination.



Isn't that what all "spirituality and mysticism" is then, a fantasy world of the imagination?

"What is truth?"(John 18:38) Sometimes its hard to tell what is truth and what is not. When I see the vastness of the earth and the universe I live in, its hard to tell what is truth.

Edited by TheWiseBecameFools (12/08/12 01:24 PM)

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Re: the new trinity [Re: TheWiseBecameFools]
    #17355977 -

Yeah that too..


--------------------
It's fine.

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Re: the new trinity [Re: cbub]
    #17357056 -

the world is very phantasmagorical


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