blueIdevil said:

Shins said:

this is exactly how libertarianism arose.

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I could go ahead and write an essay about how the lack of an even starting point basically would create a new form of serfdom in the US and around the world (which is pretty much already happening - read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and other books by Perkins if you want to see how "Laissez-faire" economics has influenced the world, even before the institution of the WTO, IMF, and World Bank.) I honestly am not up to it right now and others have done it much better than I could.

As I said, I've got nothing against Libertarianism as a philosophy, but it's just not practical or even possible as a way to make the world a better place without destroying all current wealth, military, or resource holdings. We've got to go back to the beginnings of civilization to make it viable. Capitalism (even "Anarcho-style") Is only in vogue because its methods are beyond the peon's ability to control, and the rich and influential will continue to be rich and influential under its auspices.

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environmental - propety rights.  if your property is damaged you can sue.

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1. free market feedback and review agencies can do that job.

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health and safety - if you feel you job is unhealthy or unsafe - quit and work for a company more suited to you, no one is forcing you.

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in a free market there is almost always someone who will undercut you if you price gouge,  if there is no one who can it means you are providing the public with the best service possible.

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huh? i cant understand you...

are you saying libertarians would give puppet strings to corporations?  libertarians want to cut the strings that already exist from the corporations that already own the government.

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blueIdevil said:

if you want to troll instead of trying to understand the predicament we're all in, that's fine with me. I expect it.

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Gilgamesh18 said:

blueIdevil said:

if you want to troll instead of trying to understand the predicament we're all in, that's fine with me. I expect it.

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Uh I was not trolling I only do that in shroomerites anonymous. My point still stands however the US is a nation of debtors and main street is as much to blame as the moronic banks who gave loans to people who clearly would never have been able to pay them back.

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blueIdevil said:

You continue to make my point for me. As long as you fight over which pre-conceived notion is best, you're not looking toward the future...

You're burrowing into the quagmire that independent thinkers have been tied into for God knows how long. If you're tying yourself to a mindset that's already been established, you're not helping. Someone talked about the quandary of left/right mindset earlier here, and they were right. Nothing we've come up with has worked thus-far, and backing one pre-conceived set of rules, whether they're 20, 80, or 500 years old is not going to fix the problem. The phrase "head up your ass" comes from the idea that you'll find the answers in that which you've already consumed and digested. Give it a break. L. Faire economics was tried and found wanting, just like everything else. It's not a time of revolution, it's a time for new ideas.

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...As for new systems of economics the free market philosophy is simply the most equitable way for the majority of people to have a chance at a good life. Is it perfect no but its a hell of alot better than other system that exists on the planet right now.

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Libertarian ECONOMICS follo2w the idea that the one with the most resources and charisma/brutal nature to influence the most people has the right to control their sphere of influence.

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Libertarianism is the group of political philosophies that advocates minimizing coercion and emphasizes freedom, liberty, and voluntary association.

Libertarian philosopher Roderick Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives.[3] According to the U.S. Libertarian Party, libertarianism is the advocacy of a government that is funded voluntarily and limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.[4]

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History

[edit]Eighteenth century
[edit]Age of enlightenment


John Locke
See also: Age of enlightenment, Anarchism, and Classical liberalism
During the 18th century, classical liberal ideas flourished in Europe and North America. Libertarians of various schools were influenced by classical liberal ideas.[38] The term libertarian in a metaphysical or philosophical sense was first used by late-Enlightenment free-thinkers to refer to those who believed in free will, as opposed to determinism.[39] The first recorded use was in 1789 by William Belsham in a discussion of free will and in opposition to "necessitarian" (or determinist) views.[40][41] In 1793, William Godwin wrote Political Justice, which some consider to be the first expression of anarchism.[42][43][44] Godwin opposed revolutionary action and saw a minimal state as a present "necessary evil" that would become increasingly irrelevant and powerless by the gradual spread of knowledge.[43][45]
The writings of John Locke became influential during this time. Locke's political theory was founded on social contract theory. Unlike Thomas Hobbes, Locke believed that human nature is characterised by reason and tolerance. Like Hobbes, Locke believed that human nature allowed men to be selfish. This is apparent with the introduction of currency. In a natural state all people were equal and independent, and everyone had a natural right to defend his “Life, health, Liberty, or Possessions".[46] This became the basis for the phrase in the American Declaration of Independence: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

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blueIdevil said:

you've shown your cards now, poser.

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he Austrian School of economics is a school of economic thought which bases its study of economic phenomena on the interpretation and analysis of the purposeful actions of individuals.[1][2][3][4] It derives its name from its origin in late-19th and early-20th century Vienna with the work of Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, Friedrich von Wieser, and others.[5] Currently, adherents of the Austrian School can come from any part of the world, but they are often referred to as "Austrian economists" or "Austrians" and their work as "Austrian economics".
The main tenets of the Austrian School are generally considered to be:
The theory that economic events are best explained by a deductive study of human action.[2][6]
The theory that the use of economic models and statistical methods to model economic behavior are a flawed, unreliable, and insufficient means of analyzing economic behavior and evaluating economic theories.[2][6]
The theory that testability in economics and consistently accurate mathematical modeling of an economic market are impossible because mathematical modeling of any real market affects the decision-makers in that market and "testing" relies on real human actors who cannot be placed in a lab setting without altering their would-be actions.[2][6]
The theory that the way in which money is produced has real and not only nominal economic effects.[7]
The theory that the cost of any activity should be measured by reference to the next best alternative.[8]
The theory that, in a free market, interest rates and profits are determined by three factors: monetary gains or losses from a change in the consumption of a good or service, additional output that can be produced by additional inputs, and the time preference of the associated individual agents.[9]
The theory that markets clear if prices are allowed to adjust freely.[10]
The theory that inflation properly defined relates to an increase in the supply of money (including credit).[11]
The theory that capital goods and labor are highly heterogeneous (diverse), that money allows different goods to be analyzed in terms of their cost effectively, that economic calculation requires a common basis for comparison for all forms of capital and labor, that this process is the signaling function of prices, and that it is also a rationing function which prevents over-use of inherently limited resources.[12][13]
The theory that the capital structure of economies consists of heterogeneous goods that have multi-specific uses which must be aligned to be effectively allocated, that the economic "boom-bust cycle" is caused by an artificial and unsustainable expansion of credit by the banks, and that this expansion causes businesses to make bad investment decisions which, in turn, necessarily cause major economic dislocation.[14]

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joemolloy said:

Here's the crash course:

A whole bunch of abstract, bordering on philosophical nonsensical ideas that say a bunch of good stuff about free markets.

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i suggest you alsao actually take some time to learn what youre talkign about before you say stuff.

it's plainly obvious that your understanding of libertarianism is cursory at best.


this was a big part of the age of enlightenment and its frustrating to keep reaching back to people who have not caught up who are not even receptive to enlightenment ideas.