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Jury nullification
    #16908235 -

Some of you may have read my posts where I make it clear I am strongly in favor of jury nullification. As of July 1, 2012, NH made it mandatory for judges to instruct the jurors that jury nullification is on of their options.

STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

In the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Eleven

AN ACT relative to the right of a jury to judge the application of the law in relationship to the facts in controversy.

Be it Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court convened:

1 Findings and Intent of the General Court. Under the decisions of both the New Hampshire supreme court and the United States Supreme Court, the jury has the right to judge the facts and the application of the law in relationship to the facts in controversy. The jury system functions at its best when it is fully informed of the jury’s prerogatives. The general court wishes to perpetuate and reiterate the rights of the jury, as ordained under common law and recognized in the American jurisprudence, while preserving the rights of a criminal defendant, as enumerated in part 1, articles 15 and 20, New Hampshire Bill of Rights, and the Seventh Amendment of the Constitution for the United States of America.

2 New Section; Right of Accused; Jury Instruction. Amend RSA 519 by inserting after section 23 the following new section:

519:23-a Right of Accused. In all court proceedings the court shall instruct the jury of its right to judge the facts and the application of the law in relationship to the facts in controversy. The court shall permit the defendant or counsel for the defendant to explain this right to the jury.

3 Effective Date. This act shall take effect January 1, 2012.

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Recently, a case was heard relating to a pot bust. More here. The man was found innocent by the jury, despite them agreeing that the man was growing pot.

I find this to be a wonderful development. No-one should go to jail for consuming a plant. Some here have argued against jury nullification.

I thought it might be interesting to see if those opinions have stayed the same after NH took the step of codifying jury nullification. Not as it specifically relates to pot (although those opinions are welcome), but as it relates to the law in general.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16908329 -

The overall effect of the statute will likely be very small.  If nullification becomes commonplace, the statute will likely be repealed imo.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Jury nullification [Re: Enlil]
    #16908343 -

I can see the effect being small for some crimes, but bigger for other "crimes".


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16908380 -

Legislatures don't like to give up power, and if the enforcement of a particular law is being seriously hindered by another law...they're likely to repeal the second law.

The more common it gets, the problem becomes one of exponential growth.  The more people become aware of nullification, the less people are likely to plead out.  This, of course, means more trials and longer delays in an already overtaxed system.  I don't see the powers that be letting it get that out of hand.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Jury nullification [Re: Enlil]
    #16908403 -

I agree, but there have been a few very close votes on weed in NH lately., which is where I see the largest use of this law.

I fear you could be right, I hope you are wrong.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16914007 -

luvdemshrooms said:
I can see the effect being small for some crimes, but bigger for other "crimes".


...or being small for some classes of people but bigger for other classes...

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: toxetel]
    #16914026 -

No. It's mentioned at each trial.

Money/class/race doesn't factor in as far as I can tell.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16914901 -

I was nullified to keep me off a jury.

I was called up for the sentencing phase for a woman convicted of participating in the murder of her daughter.  The woman was facing either life in prison or death.  The lawyers questioned the jury pool.  When they asked me whether I would be willing to follow the law if following the law entailed sentencing the woman to death, I said I would not.  They asked if my decision was based on a moral or religious belief.  I said yes, a moral belief.  They turned to the judge and the judge dismissed me.  They said, I was not able to make a decision based on the case, because my decision was already made based on principle.  (Seems to me they were wrong on this account because I, or anybody, can change  beliefs at any time based on new information--but that's beside the point.)  What pissed me off is that they just screened out all the potential jurors who were morally opposed to the state killing people.

So, there you go.  If the lawyers do their jobs and weed out the moral people, people with integrity, then jury nullification is not much of an issue.


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Re: Jury nullification [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16915422 -

If you are morally opposed to the death penalty then you should work to elect lawmakers who share your beliefs.  If there are enough people who agree and feel it is important to select a lawmaker on that basis then it will be done. On the other hand, if there are enough people who oppose your view then the death penalty will be the law.  The people of the state have no obligation to provide you with an opportunity to unilaterally over-ride their will.


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Re: Jury nullification [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16916055 -

I'm also morally opposed to putting non-violent drug users in prison for possession.

I don't take your point, Zappa.  The law is not perfect.  It does not perfectly represent the will of the community.  The community ought to have two chances to set it right, the ballot box and the jury box, and no citizen should be excluded from participating on a jury--dissenting voices should not be silenced-- based on whatever prevailing bullshit is the current law.


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Re: Jury nullification [Re: Not Quite Social] * 1
    #16916085 -

Not Quite Social said:
I'm also morally opposed to putting non-violent drug users in prison for possession.

I don't take your point, Zappa.  The law is not perfect.  It does not perfectly represent the will of the community.  The community ought to have two chances to set it right, the ballot box and the jury box, and no citizen should be excluded from participating on a jury--dissenting voices should not be silenced-- based on whatever prevailing bullshit is the current law.


So you think that one juror should get to over-ride an entire state's voters?  One NAMBLA member can deem pedophile laws improper?  If you cannot follow the law as written you have no business being on a jury.


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Re: Jury nullification [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16916182 -

Except this isn't one juror.

It takes a majority of the jury.

It received a 17-1 vote from the NH House Judiciary Committee.

It then had to be passed by the NH Senate and House of Representatives.

It then had to be signed by the NH Governor.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16916262 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Except this isn't one juror.


Now you get specific?  From my recollection a criminal conviction requires unanimity among 12 jurors. 
Quote:
It takes a majority of the jury.


Which would mean 7 people can over-ride the lawmakking will of an entire state.
Quote:
It received a 17-1 vote from the NH House Judiciary Committee.

It then had to be passed by the NH Senate and House of Representatives.

It then had to be signed by the NH Governor.


I don't think that bill says quite what you seem to be saying it does.  Juries have always been charged with interpreting the application of a law.  See just about any insider trading trial where the facts are almost never in dispute.  What is in dispute is whether those facts constitute a violation of the law.


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Re: Jury nullification [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16916546 -

Pretty sure it takes all 12 jurors to have a verdict that nullifies. Given that there is a selection process where both the prosecutors and defense get to veto jurors, a nullification is a finding worth notice by the legislators.

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16916562 -

No. Not now. I specifically posted the text of the law. I specifically linked to a series of articles.

That was quite specific.

The bill makes it so the defense attorney has the absolute right to raise jury nullification with the jury. As the law was originally written, the judge would have been the one instructing the jury. It was revised to include the defense.

When the state passes a law allowing something, how can a jury following that law be over-riding the will of the state?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16916672 -

zappaisgod said:
luvdemshrooms said:
Except this isn't one juror.


Now you get specific?  From my recollection a criminal conviction requires unanimity among 12 jurors.



Yes, but a hung jury doesn't result in aquital, it results in nothing but the dismissal of the jury.





Quote:
 
Quote:
It takes a majority of the jury.


Which would mean 7 people can over-ride the lawmakking will of an entire state.



Good.  That's the whole point of a jury system.  Repugnant laws should meet with difficulty in enforcement.






Quote:
I don't think that bill says quite what you seem to be saying it does.  Juries have always been charged with interpreting the application of a law.


No they haven't, they've been charged with findings of fact.



Quote:
See just about any insider trading trial where the facts are almost never in dispute.  What is in dispute is whether those facts constitute a violation of the law.


That's a question of fact- did the defendant's actions satisfy each of the elemtns of the offense?

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: falcon]
    #16916685 -

luvdemshrooms said:
No. Not now. I specifically posted the text of the law. I specifically linked to a series of articles.

That was quite specific.

The bill makes it so the defense attorney has the absolute right to raise jury nullification with the jury. As the law was originally written, the judge would have been the one instructing the jury. It was revised to leave that up to the defense.

When the state passes a law allowing something, how can a jury following that law be over-riding the will of the state?


From what you posted it doesn't allow anything new.  Like I said vis a vis insider trading cases.  In those cases the facts are almost never in dispute. 

The case you linked said the judge instructed the jury about nullification, although they didn't provide the actual instruction given. 

Do you agree with NQS that he should have been allowed to serve on a jury deciding a case the he was morally opposed to finding for one side?  I see both his position regarding that and yours regarding jury nullification to be extremely dangerous slopes.  Should a convicted murderer be allowed to serve on a jury in a murder trial?    Should a NAMBLA member be allowed to serve on Sandusky's jury? 

falcon said:
Pretty sure it takes all 12 jurors to have a verdict that nullifies. Given that there is a selection process where both the prosecutors and defense get to veto jurors, a nullification is a finding worth notice by the legislators.


It takes a unanimous jury to convict.  You only need one juror to nullify and get at least a mistrial.


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Re: Jury nullification [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16916730 -

Nullification is a verdict, so it takes 12. It is verdict that says that the law is to be is to disregarded in the specific case that the jury deliberated and decided to nullify.

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Re: Jury nullification [Re: johnm214]
    #16916778 -

johnm214 said:
zappaisgod said:
luvdemshrooms said:
Except this isn't one juror.


Now you get specific?  From my recollection a criminal conviction requires unanimity among 12 jurors.



Yes, but a hung jury doesn't result in aquital, it results in nothing but the dismissal of the jury.


Nothing but a mistrial?  Oh great, one douchebag can force a retrial.  Yipee for everyone.  Except the taxpayer
Quote:
Quote:
 
Quote:
It takes a majority of the jury.


Which would mean 7 people can over-ride the lawmakking will of an entire state.



Good.  That's the whole point of a jury system.  Repugnant laws should meet with difficulty in enforcement.


Bullshit.  That is NOT the point of the jury system.  How do you feel about laws against child molestation?
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think that bill says quite what you seem to be saying it does.  Juries have always been charged with interpreting the application of a law.


No they haven't, they've been charged with findings of fact.


Quote:
See just about any insider trading trial where the facts are almost never in dispute.  What is in dispute is whether those facts constitute a violation of the law.


That's a question of fact- did the defendant's actions satisfy each of the elemtns of the offense?


:facepalm:

No, it is not a finding of fact in legal terms.  Facts are often stipulated, especially in insider trading cases.  Yes Joe did trade a stock and yes Joe did have a conversation with Dick.  Or even that Joe did have a conversation with Jane who traded.  Does that constitute a violation?  The question often boils down to legal minutia that isn't a finding of fact, but is a finding of law.  The facts aren't in dispute.  Whether they violate the law is.


Do you all have any idea what chaos you are advocating just because of your drug law obsessions?


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Re: Jury nullification [Re: falcon]
    #16916781 -

falcon said:
Nullification is a verdict, so it takes 12. It is verdict that says that the law is to be is to disregarded in the specific case that the jury deliberated and decided to nullify.


:facepalm:It only takes one juror to nullify a jury.


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