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Power Supply Question
    #16534212 -

I have an 850 watt 80+ gold in my secondary PC.  This time last year someone stepped on my headset cord and enough force was used to bend the metal around the male header(USB headset), and completely snap the female header on the front of my case.  That caused a short and I have no clue how long the PC sat there like that.  It was off though.  This PC has a Sabertooth X58 motherboard, and the PSU is by Corsair.  Having good hardware paid off because that circuit was isolated, so once I detached the usb cable from the case to the motherboard, it booted up and worked just fine. 

Fast forward to about two months ago I had instability issues.  Some of my RAM was bad and I replaced it with 3 stick of the AMAZING Samsung 30nm DDR3.  Everything worked great for a month.  Then the PC just started to BSOD/freeze.  In the BIOS I noticed my 3.3v rail was under ATX specs.  Bluescreen Viewer showed video problems, but since the voltages were off I decided to pull one of my 6950's out of the case.  After doing that all voltages are within spec.  I know I need a multimeter to get actual voltages but with a 2 year old running around a condo it's pretty hard to find the time to do that. 

My best guess is that my PSU is FUBAR or I completely fucked VRM's on the motherboard, but I don't know.  The fact that I can't test the PSU with all my hardware in it, running at higher loads, has me wondering about how to troubleshoot.  I have a feeling that if I'm just testing the PSU it'll show ok voltages since everything has been stable for weeks now after removing the 6950.  Also, I've ran the PC with only one of each card and there's no problems, so both video cards are good. 

Thanks for any advice!


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


Edited by 5HTSynaptrip (07/15/12 01:35 PM)

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #16534481 -

So let me get this straight, it runs perfectly fine with each 6950, individually? But you ONLY get BSOD's/freezing when both are installed in Crossfire?
I have seen where PSUs can degrade over time to the point where they can provide enough power for one card but start to fail when pushing two or more, even if they are rated for enough amperage.
Short of a multimeter, you could try HWMonitor, and try checking the +12v rail with 1 card, and with both cards.
Software readings aren't always going to be 100% accurate, but ~80% of the time (on modern hardware) they are pretty close IME. If it's gonna give you a wrong reading it's gonna be way off.
You want to monitor the min and max idle and under load and note any major fluctuations..

Also check the Xfire bridge, try testing another one if possible...


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: Shroomism]
    #16534968 -

This PSU was expensive as fuck and it's only 1.5 years old.  There's no way I'm drawing too much power because I used to have two 6970's and a liquid loop in here with no problems.  I've tried HWMonitor, the BIOS read-out, and even SpeedFan.  They all give the exact same results.  My 12v rail is fine though, the only rail ever going under ATX specification is the 3.3v. 

I have split rails with this PSU though, and when I put this PC back together a while back I really cut back on the modular cables so it wouldn't be as messy.  Aside from faulty hardware, I'm starting to wonder if I'm drawing too many amps off of one rail.  The manual says it has a quintuple +12v rail.  I also upgraded my fans when I redid my cable management.  I replaced all 3 pin fans with 130cfm PWM monsters.  Just typing this now, I'm wondering if I'm drawing too much power from them because I have them all set to run full speed.  They pull way more amps than most fans.  The only 3 pin fan I have is a Scythe Ultra Kaze, which is also a beast. 

That's the new plan, add one or two molex cables to the PSU and wire half of the fans off of that. Thoughts?

Edit: I have tried a different bridge, even changing the bridge positions, but this was all done before I noticed the voltages were off.  Nothing is OC'ed, in fact I'm running the RAM at 1333.  Diablo 3 is all I've been playing and it runs better with one video card, go figure. :crankey: 


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


Edited by 5HTSynaptrip (07/15/12 01:39 PM)

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #16536126 -

Possibly.. you could be pulling too many amps from one rail. If possible try splitting it so you are running each card off 2 rails.
Also you want to quickly and easily T/S the fans possibly pulling too much (I doubt it but worth a try).... try unplugging the fans to test. Just leave the essential fan(CPU) and try it.

Anyway, 99% of the time, when I see system crashing in SLI, but each card works perfectly individually, it's almost always going to come down to the motherboard, SLI/Xfire bridge, or PSU in my experience.
So the +12v rail is perfectly stable, with both cards installed, under a load? When exactly do you see the crashes, and do you know the specific BSOD?


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: Shroomism]
    #16537094 -

What is exact BSOD? Also, you can afford two top of the line sli gpus but can't buy a multi meter tester? The only way you'll know for sure if your psu is adequate is to test the psu with multimeter, of course each amp individually. Meaning you won't get the full loop green light for all rails including input/outlet. This of course will give you more minor readings, but of course your psu is dedicated to many things, and expansion cards don't come first.

I'm not an expert with this stuff, but I'm just assuming. Could it be your board?? How many pins does the psu dedicate to the pic expansion lanes? 4? 6? Remember, heavy graphic cards fit into old pcix16 expansion slots made for sli compatibility(funny, how I call that old)

Yet that doesn't mean when the main board architecture was designed, that they knew that the gpus that would fit into Those expansion slots, and be sli compatible to run two hard core gaming gpus. Does the motherboard interface support that high of expansion bit processing?? Of course. But each slot was made for one interface card, and with that in mind they may have thought of older cards or mid line cards being made for sli compatibility

So you have a 750 watt psu. It's not bad. Not that the wattage equals the quality. Perhaps you think the watts are high and rails are low for amps? With a multi meter you'll have your answer.

Here is a good example of why it may be your board. I had a friend who recently built a gaming computer. He built one, with semi decent specs in mind. He got a board based on sandy bridge technology. I forget what socket but it supports the i3 processor. He put In a 64 bit version. 8 gigs ram, good motherboard not brand new model though. He used a 600 watt power supply, even at 600 watts it was a good brand cost him $95. Installed windows on a terabyte drive. Everything was fine.

Now here is a giveaway, he used Sata 2 instead of sata3, as said before, this board is good just not the newest. Now in a pci slot, he put the brand new nvidia graphics card, blah blah I forget what it was, the one with a 256 bit bus processor, 2 gigs ddr3 VRAM, etc. turns out his pc blue screened with the new video card. He tried every pci slot. Just didn't work. Turns out, even with the processor normally clocked, etc. good psu with good rails, his mobo didn't have a power pin interface to power that card in a pic slot. I couldn't believe it either.

And really, same issue. Pc turned on. Game didn't run, pc blue screened. He tried new drivers, etc. etc. etc. lower settings. He took it to geek squad, turns out when his gpu bench marked, and peaked, that his psu was missing about a watt or two of power to run battlefield 3, with that card anyway. I'm assuming he did ok with YouTube. He almost just replaced the card and they convinced him the gpu was more expensive then his main board. :lol:

He got a newer mobo, re installed everything, re mounted it, I think he needed a newer heat sink made for an i7 instead of an i3. That was it and now he can run anything.

Its hard to believe that your psu isn't the issue, but its most likely not. One hard core gpu works. Prolly two older gpus would work side by Side sli connected. And of course a blue screen is any memory issue, a pc turning off is a power issue, more CPU related or total failure. A blue screen is more ram, or one motherboard interface memory issue, like a gpu issue. If you test the psu with a multi meter and it's good it's most likely a mobo issue. Meaning the designers didn't figure server type,power would e pulled from the expansion slots. It's amazing when bright engineers like intel, hp, dell, Asus, don't initiate this shit.

So you'll say, what were the chances the board interface expansions were made to pull enough bits to power latest technology, but they didnt make a power interface for all the lanes to run two sli cards. Well, engineers make an expansion slot interface to work for generations. If I made Sata 12, I might make it tomorrow, to run 100 gigs a second. Doesn't mean a processor and storage drive would be made in the next week that would fully utilise this ability, or even close

But when the power to the lanes is designed, it's designed with the idea in mind of what's bench marked at the moment. Now right now a gpu exists that has a 512 bit bus, and 4 gigs ddr3 VRAM. Tomorrow there might be a gpu that doubles that that's sli compatible, while today engineers are trying to make sure enough power goes to expansion slots to power a gig NIC, a sound card, and one 512 bit bus gpu, on the newst main board architecture. Which might be less power altogether then two gpus sli connected that each individually double the highest standard right now.

Think I'm close? Sucks counting technology in a generation, that's behind by only a few bits, or a few amps, or one watt. It's just how the market works. Today's top of the line shit will run battlefield 7 on the lowest settings :shrug:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: Shroomism]
    #16537139 -

Shroomism said:
Possibly.. you could be pulling too many amps from one rail. If possible try splitting it so you are running each card off 2 rails.
Also you want to quickly and easily T/S the fans possibly pulling too much (I doubt it but worth a try).... try unplugging the fans to test. Just leave the essential fan(CPU) and try it.

Anyway, 99% of the time, when I see system crashing in SLI, but each card works perfectly individually, it's almost always going to come down to the motherboard, SLI/Xfire bridge, or PSU in my experience.
So the  12v rail is perfectly stable, with both cards installed, under a load? When exactly do you see the crashes, and do you know the specific BSOD?



I'd assume if the expansion bridges allow two psu rails to be connected, go for that. What mobo version is it anyway? All I know is I thought you said lower end sandy bridge. What mobo specs do you have? Your mobo should tell you how many rails, how many amps can power the expansion slot lane. 5htp synaptrip seems to know much more about computers then I do. OP is leaving out multi meter and mobo specs, although he listed his psu and sli gpus well. But now it's all a wild guess without all the info. You already fix it 5htp synaptrip?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: imachavel]
    #16537340 -

The different rails is all dependent on the PSU, some PSUs have multiple rails and some have a single.
Kinda confused what you are talking about, the mobo doesn't decide how many amps power the PCIe slots... well it pushes through a certain amount which comes from the primary 24-pin power, but the rest comes from supplementary 6/8-pin power on most higher powered modern cards.

Although that does bring up a good point... on the first generation X58s, is right around when the high end 400 series GPUs (480) came out.
These were high end, super power hungry cards way above previous generations. They were simply pulling a lot more power than any previous cards.
This brought about the issue, of when people were running 2 - 4 of them in SLI, people started frying/melting a pin(s) in the 24-pin connector because it was pulling way more power through the PCI-E lanes than the board was ever designed to handle.

On the next generation of X58s after that, and every other subsequent generation, for SLI/Xfire capable boards, pretty much all manufacturers added a supplementary 6-pin connector to plug into the board, that goes straight to the PCI-E lanes, which was the fix for running multiple super high end cards in SLI without frying your board, as it provides additional power to the PCI-E and stabilizes the voltages.

I know some boards now even have 2 supplemental 6-pin connections for when running multiple GPUs.
One of the boards (Z77) my company produces, the 6-pin is required if running more than one card, the 2nd card won't even be detected.

And today's top of the line shit can definitely run Battlefield 3 at Ultra settings, you just gotta spend a lot of money to do it :shrug:
Or spend half as much and still run everything at high settings. Games are usually behind the hardware except for every few years when the next Crysis or BF3 comes out. 


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: Shroomism]
    #16537971 -

> My 12v rail is fine though, the only rail ever going under ATX specification is the 3.3v.

How far off?  Does your system tell you what the actual voltages are?

> I have split rails with this PSU though

My experience has been that 'split rails' are tied in the PWS, even though that violates the ATX specification, in almost every single PWS on the market.  I'm not saying that yours is not split, but without looking at the circuit, you don't really know.

Beyond what Shroomism said above (which is excellent), make sure your cooling is good on both cards.  Unlikely to be the problem, but something to consider.  If the 3.3V rail is drooping under load, then either the load is too high (small short somewhere, perhaps) or the power supply is faulty.  To properly test the power supply, you would need a variable load tester and an oscilloscope.  Much easier to install a known good power supply and test.  (My money is on a faulty power supply given the drooping rail; assuming the droop is significant.)

One final thought... check your drivers, or run with a fresh install (on a scratch HDD) to ensure that this is not a software issue.  I hate fixing hardware problems that are really software problems.  :smile:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: Seuss]
    #16538311 -

The crashes only happened while gaming, when the gpu's were pulling the most power.  I can't change the configuration of the 6/8 pin connectors to them, because the modular cables are keyed to have them run off of separate rails.  Since it was the 3.3v rail, that I've seen dip down to 2.98(maybe lower) and that's well out of ATX specification, I'm wondering if the +12v rails are just more stable by design.  As I said, I've used HWMonitor and SpeedFan for the life of this PC and I've glanced at the software voltage readouts more times than I can remember. 

The GPU's are running cool.  I have two different brands, obviously same series, an XFX and Asus 6950's.  For stability I have to use MSI Afterburner to get them clocked at the same speeds.  I also cannot stand most cooling profiles that come built into the cards, because they let them run way too hot in crossfire.  So Afterburner is always up, and I have an aggressive cooling profile for both cards.  Ironically, the Asus DCII runs about 15-20 degrees hotter than the XFX, and it was substantially more expensive(I got both new off eBay for under $200).  Neither ever go above 70, and that was with mining.  While gaming they hang around 60.

I did make a mistake in my first post though, my new PC has my Corsair PSU and this PC has a Sparkle PSU(the company that made video cards).  At the time of purchase I researched them a lot, and it was a dumb move maybe, but the feedback across many sites was really good.  They never sold many I'm guessing and their fucking support sucks my ass.  I haven't been able to even get a reply in over a month.  I want to say it's a rebranded Seasonic or something of the like.

Also, this is just about the last generation X58 with USB 3.0 and SATA III.  It has the supplemental 6-pin installed. 

I know the fans sound like a dumb idea, but these are beyond normal normal thickness.  120cm x 120cm x 34(?)cm if memory serves.  They're heavy as fuck and prior to installing them the DEMCIFlex filtes on my HAF X just laid flat, and now they balloon ever so slightly from positive pressure(I don't want to debate it, I like it because it helps keep even more dust out).  You're probably right though... I was really, really crazy with the cable management this time, I even omitted a HDD that I wasn't really using because it meant adding another SATA power connector.  I cut a few corners with SATA power, using molex adapters and not my actual sata power cables.  So the first line of business is fixing the stupid shit I did a few months back, wiring everything right, even if it's not pretty... which is retarded to think about now anyway since I barely have the time to do what I have to now.


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #16550355 -

It's the PSU.  Finally got a hold of Sparkle, and after sending my RMA info and receipt these idiots have asked for the receipt twice.  How is it possible to be that stupid? :O

:llamastare:


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #16551105 -

While Corsair definitely isn't infallible, they do have some pretty stand up support... You def. made the right choice for your new PSU... If you do end up RMAing the Sparkle PSU, I'd sell the one they return you and buy another Corsair.


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #16552980 -

I knew it was the PSU! Haha you should have said it was a Sparkle from the beginning. I would have told you that first thing :tongue:


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #16553096 -

Quote:
I did make a mistake in my first post though, my new PC has my Corsair PSU and this PC has a Sparkle PSU(the company that made video cards).  At the time of purchase I researched them a lot, and it was a dumb move maybe, but the feedback across many sites was really good.  They never sold many I'm guessing and their fucking support sucks my ass.  I haven't been able to even get a reply in over a month.  I want to say it's a rebranded Seasonic or something of the like.



Also, your Corsair power supply is likely the rebranded Sea Sonic, it's what they use in most of their models.. Sea Sonic has a pretty great reputation FWIW, though would always further research the specific model before plunking down....  Sparkle appears to use FSP PSUs.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #16553145 -

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
I did make a mistake in my first post though, my new PC has my Corsair PSU and this PC has a Sparkle PSU(the company that made video cards).  At the time of purchase I researched them a lot, and it was a dumb move maybe, but the feedback across many sites was really good.  They never sold many I'm guessing and their fucking support sucks my ass.  I haven't been able to even get a reply in over a month.  I want to say it's a rebranded Seasonic or something of the like.



Also, your Corsair power supply is likely the rebranded Sea Sonic, it's what they use in most of their models.. Sea Sonic has a pretty great reputation FWIW, though would always further research the specific model before plunking down....  Sparkle appears to use FSP PSUs.



Yeah, sesonic is cool.  I checked out a ton of reviews before buying mine, and it was pretty good.  I got an S12II 520W for like $60, and it seems to test better than a lot of more expensive units.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=185

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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: johnm214]
    #16604833 -

There are two PSU companies that are named Sparkle, mine is the company that makes video cards.  They were also working with Diablotek on PSU's, but mine in specific is a Seasonic.  I called Diablotek and the woman there was really nice and gave me the direct line to Sparkle-USA's HQ.  From there I got the RMA dept # that never had a wait time.

The guy I got was nice, and I explained my situation.  He brought up my case and without even having me send in the defective PSU, just mailed me a new one, retail boxed and all(as well as free game but idc about that) without me saying another word.

Fedex tracking says it should be here today, but idk if they do Saturday delivery.  Either way, I'm super stoked to have not had to ship mine back, and aside from the 24-pin cable, all I have to is pretty much pop the new PSU in and not really mess with my cable management.  This entire week I tried playing D3 on my laptop, which has an nVidia GT 335m(plenty capable of playing D3 on high settings), but of course there's tons of nVidia user's plagued with D3 having stuttering issues.  Act 3 inferno and stuttering = me almost launching the laptop through a window.

I'll be interested to see software readouts on the voltages once I get this new PSU in.  I can't fault Sparkle for this PSU failing, because I had a continual short on my USB standby circuit, and I have no idea what that could've done to the PSU or how long it was enduring that.  It has been amazing up to this failure, and if this new one holds up I'll be happy.  I'm certainly not selling it since the warranty may not transfer, I would get shit for it, and 80+ gold modular PSU's at or above 800 watts cost a good deal of money. 

Will report back when the new PSU is installed.


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #16606452 -

Good deal. I've never heard very good things about Sparkle's PSUs, but glad to hear they were awesome with the RMA. If it is a rebranded Seasonic yeah those do tend to be top notch.


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Re: Power Supply Question [Re: Shroomism]
    #16633078 -

The Sparkle Gold PSU's are really good, but obviously you get defective units.  The 1250 watt model got an amazing review at jonnyguru.com.  As it turns out, Sparkle sent me a brand-new 1000 watt unit(retail packaging and all) for dicking me around with the RMA. 

I'm typing this on my desktop now! Software all shows voltages right on spec, installing this unit was a breeze since I was able to keep my modular cables in place.  It took like 15 min tops because of the 24 pin.  Super stoked about how this ordeal ended up getting resolved.  For a week of Sparkle fucking around, I'd gladly take the upgrade to 1000 watts... especially for not being refurb. :laugh:


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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