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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Greek elections [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16404475 -

Thats the best youve got?

pretty weak argument for someone your age and "wisdom"

History proves me right OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE WORLD AROUND YOU!

or maybe you think the donkey goyum gentiles deserve it?


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Greek elections [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16404518 -

zappaisgod said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysistrata

What are you some kinda Philistine?  Everybody knows Lysistrata.



Yeah, I'm a Philistine. :shrug:  Also a Philatelist. (as was Ann Rand:braindamage:)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Greek elections [Re: Icelander]
    #16404640 -

I'm a numismatist myself.


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Re: Greek elections [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16404758 -

:lol:  I have one of the large  old pennies I found when walking the shores of Lake Michigan.  I also just sold a bunch of pre commie Russian paper money.  It was actually worth something. I also have a roman coin with the imprint of Jesus on one side and the Roman Emperor on the other.  All my other money gets spent at gourmet pastry shops.:evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Greek elections [Re: Icelander]
    #16404770 -

Money spent at a pastry shop is always well spent.


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Re: Greek elections [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16408612 -

Quote:
Oh, you bet, it really is that easy, to, you know, hand out trillions and trillions of dollars to productive businesses across a continent. Because it's so easy to determine what constitutes a productive business,


It's very easy.

A business that;

manufactures cars= productive

sells credit default swaps= unproductive

Drills for oil= productive

speculates on oil= unproductive

Builds houses= productive

Creates collateralized debt obligations= unproductive

There is a definite pattern. I realise you may have misinterpreted what I mean by a productive business. I don't mean a business that is sure to turn a profit, I mean a business that produces a tangible good or service, not a business that plays with digits in an imaginary web of debt and speculation. You don't "hand out" trillions of Dollars/Euros/Pounds you lend them to businesses.

Quote:
and it's so easy to so directly intervene in the economy and know that you aren't simply creating some kind of hyper-inflated bubble by modifying the economy to such a degree, potentially just making things much worse.


By a "hyper-inflated bubble" do you mean an economy that produces goods and services that people demand and pays people a wage that allows them to buy those products? What a disater that would be.

Quote:
If only it weren't for those all-powerful bankers, we could just snap our fingers and have 1% unemployment across an entire continent!


The snapping of the fingers is irrelevant, providing credit to get the economy moving and demand for goods through an infrastructure development scheme is what would give us 1% unemployment. Yes I blame the banks, who do you blame? Some mysterious virus that has infected the population with laziness?


--------------------
Obama is a PUPPET, these are his masters
After the Neocons

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Re: Greek elections [Re: Batty Koda] * 1
    #16408712 -

Batty Koda said:
Quote:
Oh, you bet, it really is that easy, to, you know, hand out trillions and trillions of dollars to productive businesses across a continent. Because it's so easy to determine what constitutes a productive business,


It's very easy.

A business that;

manufactures cars= productive

sells credit default swaps= unproductive

Drills for oil= productive

speculates on oil= unproductive

Builds houses= productive

Creates collateralized debt obligations= unproductive

There is a definite pattern. I realise you may have misinterpreted what I mean by a productive business. I don't mean a business that is sure to turn a profit, I mean a business that produces a tangible good or service, not a business that plays with digits in an imaginary web of debt and speculation. You don't "hand out" trillions of Dollars/Euros/Pounds you lend them to businesses.

Quote:
and it's so easy to so directly intervene in the economy and know that you aren't simply creating some kind of hyper-inflated bubble by modifying the economy to such a degree, potentially just making things much worse.


By a "hyper-inflated bubble" do you mean an economy that produces goods and services that people demand and pays people a wage that allows them to buy those products? What a disater that would be.

Quote:
If only it weren't for those all-powerful bankers, we could just snap our fingers and have 1% unemployment across an entire continent!


The snapping of the fingers is irrelevant, providing credit to get the economy moving and demand for goods through an infrastructure development scheme is what would give us 1% unemployment. Yes I blame the banks, who do you blame? Some mysterious virus that has infected the population with laziness?


"providing credit to get the economy moving" Isn't that a collaterized debt obligation?

Credit default swaps are insurance.  Is insurance non-productive?

Do you know why there are commodities markets?  So that the people who drill the oil can sell it in an organived manner.

You are incredibly ignorant about business and finance


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Re: Greek elections [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16410169 -

Quote:
"providing credit to get the economy moving" Isn't that a collaterized debt obligation?


No a collateralized debt obligation is a scam. It's a way of packaging overpriced assets into a complex financial instrument in order to hide their lack of value. The shysters using these financial instruments to rip people off and inflate their balance sheets get their partners in crime from the rating agencies to class these "toxic assets" as triple A so that they can sell them to unwitting victims easier. They caused the September 2008 banking crash.

Quote:
Credit default swaps are insurance.  Is insurance non-productive?


They call these things insurance but usually they are not used for insurance purposes. Selling insurance requires the seller to meet some strict requirements, have special licenses and such. The people flogging these credit default swaps don't fit the bill as insurance brokers but they get away with selling them anyway. The are usually used as purely speculative intruments where the buyer has no stake in the relevent security the CDS is tied to. They are a financial weapon and a form of parasitism.

Quote:
Do you know why there are commodities markets?  So that the people who drill the oil can sell it in an organived manner.


If people want to speculate in commodities then fine but regulate the markets and don't bail them out when their gambles go wrong. There is blatant market manipulation going on in commodity markets that regulators should investigate and jail the perpatrators. But the regulators are in the pockets of the criminals and often come from and in the future work at the same criminal enterprises that they are supposed to be watching over.

Oil prices are driven up massively by organised market manipulation. When oil prices rocketed pre September 2008 it was because of speculators going long on oil using the London International Commodity Exchange market. When they went bust they had to liquidate their long positions and the oil price dropped so that it more closely resembled supply and demand and not an inflated price manipulated to rip off the consumer.

Quote:
You are incredibly ignorant about business and finance


I disagree.  :takingnotes:


--------------------
Obama is a PUPPET, these are his masters
After the Neocons

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Re: Greek elections [Re: Batty Koda]
    #16413177 -

Batty Koda said:
It's very easy.

A business that;

manufactures cars= productive

sells credit default swaps= unproductive

Drills for oil= productive

speculates on oil= unproductive

Builds houses= productive

Creates collateralized debt obligations= unproductive

There is a definite pattern. I realise you may have misinterpreted what I mean by a productive business. I don't mean a business that is sure to turn a profit, I mean a business that produces a tangible good or service, not a business that plays with digits in an imaginary web of debt and speculation. You don't "hand out" trillions of Dollars/Euros/Pounds you lend them to businesses.


In the same sense that an economy relies on businesses that produce tangible goods and services, it also relies on businesses that facilitate the transfer, accumulation, investment, etc. etc. etc. of funds. I don't think anyone denies that it certainly happens and can happen that things can go sour when it comes to how investments are made and how banks offer some of their services.
On the one hand, however, this doesn't take away from the fact that these banks are also essentially accomplishing what you are describing needs to happen, in terms of offering credit to "productive" businesses. On this note, I don't understand the idea that bailing out banks isn't a sensible approach to healing the economy when so many "productive" businesses rely on those very banks already in order to conduct business.
On the other hand, banks only operate within the framework of the rules and regulations set for them by government. If government isn't effectively regulating the banking industry, then it's no small wonder when problems arise that threaten the economy as a whole.

Which ties in with my original point. The Greek debt crisis is essentially simply a failure of the Greek government, democratically elected and held accountable (or not) by the Greek population. I believe I recall reading that over the course of just a few years that public spending there increased 50%? How is that tenable without some form of groundswell of tax revenue (which certainly didn't happen?)? To which extent was the Greek government really ensuring that their banking sector was well-regulated and stable? It's no doubt that the global financial crisis has put pressure on practically every country, but you certainly don't see every European country over their head in water. Banks aren't some malignant, malevolent, all-powerful force. They take the form that the respective government shapes for them. And some countries have healthy, normal, stable banks, which don't rely and whose well-being are not threatened by dangerous speculation and dangerous profit-chasing.

The only thing really that I see in the solution you're suggesting here is eliminating banks in general and relying on the government to dispense credit for the private sector. Considering that the disasters created by a banking sector laxly-regulated by governments and by piss-poor financial planning by governments, it really doesn't seem to me to be any kind of solution, and that's setting aside the other question of having a government so invasive in and controlling of the economy. It just seems bad, bad, bad, any way you cut it.

Quote:
By a "hyper-inflated bubble" do you mean an economy that produces goods and services that people demand and pays people a wage that allows them to buy those products? What a disater that would be.


No, I mean a hyper-inflated bubble. Economies have foundations and creating some kind of surge with a great influx of cash-flow would necessitate that cash-flow be permanent in order to sustain all of that growth.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Greek elections [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16413244 -

fireworks_god said:
Batty Koda said:
It's very easy.

A business that;

manufactures cars= productive

sells credit default swaps= unproductive

Drills for oil= productive

speculates on oil= unproductive

Builds houses= productive

Creates collateralized debt obligations= unproductive

There is a definite pattern. I realise you may have misinterpreted what I mean by a productive business. I don't mean a business that is sure to turn a profit, I mean a business that produces a tangible good or service, not a business that plays with digits in an imaginary web of debt and speculation. You don't "hand out" trillions of Dollars/Euros/Pounds you lend them to businesses.


In the same sense that an economy relies on businesses that produce tangible goods and services, it also relies on businesses that facilitate the transfer, accumulation, investment, etc. etc. etc. of funds. I don't think anyone denies that it certainly happens and can happen that things can go sour when it comes to how investments are made and how banks offer some of their services.
On the one hand, however, this doesn't take away from the fact that these banks are also essentially accomplishing what you are describing needs to happen, in terms of offering credit to "productive" businesses. On this note, I don't understand the idea that bailing out banks isn't a sensible approach to healing the economy when so many "productive" businesses rely on those very banks already in order to conduct business.
On the other hand, banks only operate within the framework of the rules and regulations set for them by government. If government isn't effectively regulating the banking industry, then it's no small wonder when problems arise that threaten the economy as a whole.

Which ties in with my original point. The Greek debt crisis is essentially simply a failure of the Greek government, democratically elected and held accountable (or not) by the Greek population. I believe I recall reading that over the course of just a few years that public spending there increased 50%? How is that tenable without some form of groundswell of tax revenue (which certainly didn't happen?)? To which extent was the Greek government really ensuring that their banking sector was well-regulated and stable? It's no doubt that the global financial crisis has put pressure on practically every country, but you certainly don't see every European country over their head in water. Banks aren't some malignant, malevolent, all-powerful force. They take the form that the respective government shapes for them. And some countries have healthy, normal, stable banks, which don't rely and whose well-being are not threatened by dangerous speculation and dangerous profit-chasing.

The only thing really that I see in the solution you're suggesting here is eliminating banks in general and relying on the government to dispense credit for the private sector. Considering that the disasters created by a banking sector laxly-regulated by governments and by piss-poor financial planning by governments, it really doesn't seem to me to be any kind of solution, and that's setting aside the other question of having a government so invasive in and controlling of the economy. It just seems bad, bad, bad, any way you cut it.

Quote:
By a "hyper-inflated bubble" do you mean an economy that produces goods and services that people demand and pays people a wage that allows them to buy those products? What a disater that would be.


No, I mean a hyper-inflated bubble. Economies have foundations and creating some kind of surge with a great influx of cash-flow would necessitate that cash-flow be permanent in order to sustain all of that growth.


"you certainly don't see every European country over their head in water" 

Where do you think the term PIGS came from?  Portugal, Ireland, Italy, and Spain are no different than Greece.

As the Euro crisis continues, we will see that Austria, Belgium, France and the UK are also in the same boat.

It is also important to remember that Greece "cooked" the books with faulty accounting for many years, giving the politicians the green light for more irresponsible borrowing.

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Re: Greek elections [Re: fireworks_god]
    #16414017 -

Quote:
On the one hand, however, this doesn't take away from the fact that these banks are also essentially accomplishing what you are describing needs to happen, in terms of offering credit to "productive" businesses. On this note, I don't understand the idea that bailing out banks isn't a sensible approach to healing the economy when so many "productive" businesses rely on those very banks already in order to conduct business.


Not where I live. I know plenty of people who have businesses that consistently make a profit but the banks won't lend to them. They know they can make more money by speculating. I agree that the government shouldn't be in charge of ALL lending, a lot of it should be done by private lenders. But the criminal zombie banks that are being propped up by governments should be allowed to fail, the government should then provide the banks/building societies that are still standing with credit for them to lend out. But only to lend out not to speculate with.

Quote:
On the other hand, banks only operate within the framework of the rules and regulations set for them by government. If government isn't effectively regulating the banking industry, then it's no small wonder when problems arise that threaten the economy as a whole.


The bankers own the governments have you not noticed? Of course Jamie Dimon and Loyd Blankfien aren't going to tell their pathetic little puppets in the SEC and the treasury that they should be regulated more.

Quote:
Which ties in with my original point. The Greek debt crisis is essentially simply a failure of the Greek government, democratically elected and held accountable (or not) by the Greek population.


Yes it is a failure of the Greek government and nearly all western governments. People have allowed the financiers to take over their governments. I'm saying people should realise this and try to take their governments back.

Quote:
but you certainly don't see every European country over their head in water.


They will be pickd off one at a time by Credit Default Swaps, Greece is just the first of many victims.

Quote:
Banks aren't some malignant, malevolent, all-powerful force. They take the form that the respective government shapes for them


Yes they are and these days banks shape governments not the other way around. Look at who was put in charge of Greece and Italy, unelected bankers from Goldman Sachs.

Quote:
Economies have foundations and creating some kind of surge with a great influx of cash-flow would necessitate that cash-flow be permanent in order to sustain all of that growth.



That sentence doesn't mean anything to me can you be more specific?  :confused:


--------------------
Obama is a PUPPET, these are his masters
After the Neocons

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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