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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Who do you think will win the election?
    #3158953 - 09/21/04 03:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

this poll is not about who you want to be president, or who you are voting for. honestly guess who you think is going to win. here are a few points to consider:
1) many polls show a statistical dead heat
2) conspiracy nuts think Kerry is a shoe in
3) more young people have been registered this year than ever. (young people traditionally vote Dem and arent factored into the polls)
4) Bush has successfully smeared Kerry and made him look bad
5) Iraq is getting bad again, no bin laden yet :shrug:
6) a decent amount of people are starting to think bush planned 9/11 because of all sorts of flash cartoons, websites,songs and movies.
Who do you THINK will win the election?
You may choose only one
John F. Kerry
George W. Bush (aka crooked retard)


Votes accepted from (09/21/04 02:00 AM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3158986 - 09/21/04 06:33 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I predict George Bush is going to win, and Kerry will commit suicide.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Zahid]
    #3159007 - 09/21/04 07:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i know i sure wont win; in any way.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleClean
the lense
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3159089 - 09/21/04 09:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

whoever wins, the people of america and the world will lose.



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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3159485 - 09/21/04 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I had alot of hope.. and i even kinda liked Kerry at the begining.. as much as i could like a Democrat. I still think he's got a shot. But Bush is looking better and better in the public's eye.

You mentioned the youth which normally goes Dem. But you're also seeing new emrgences in the youth. Republican rallies on college campuses. A conservative punk movement. (which really scares me..)

Kerry has also made himself seem more and more and more like Bush in order to cater to middle america. Bush himself has become more left on certain issues and strayed from party lines.. especially with his actions concerning illegal immigrants (which will buy a signifigant amount of the hispanic vote, but also lose a few (but negligbile amount of bigots).

Kerry was great as the "liberal" alternative and he, IMO, should have played that .. in a smart way. Now, not so much.

I have an irking feeling Bush will win. And i'm not a conspiracy nut about it (ala Annapurna).

I do think there will be a media scandal (and possibly a real one) concerning voting screw ups, and especially with voting machines..and i don't think Dems will puss out with this fight this time.

But anyways, as much as i don't like him.. I'm voting Kerry. The lesser evil may still be evil.. but at least it slows it down to some degree and i won't have to worry about gay rights, abortion, or anything of the sort being violated by someone's religious agenda. At least.. it'll get god out of the white house.

And also.. at least with Bush gone, Rummy is gone, Asscrap is gone, Dick is gone, Rice will be gone..Now i just wish who's going to be in Kerry's admin if he won..


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3159539 - 09/21/04 01:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DigitalDuality said:
Bush himself has become more left on certain issues and strayed from party lines.. especially with his actions concerning illegal immigrants (which will buy a signifigant amount of the hispanic vote, but also lose a few (but negligbile amount of bigots).



Interesting... Are you under the impression that unfettered immigration is only opposed by bigots? Are you of the opinion that if a person thinks people should not be rewarded for breaking the law that he is a bigot? Is it your contention that those who are worried about the increasing fiscal burden of hospital emergency rooms being used to treat everyday medical conditions of uninsured illegal aliens and those burdens being passed on in the form of higher insurance premiums are somehow bigots? Is it your insinuation that those who are concerned about the whole host of other services consumed by illegal immigrants that are placing a financial burden on municipalities are bigots because of their concern? Are those who are wary of terrorists coming across the borders among the flood of illegal immigrants bigots because of their recognition of the possibility? If so, those are very ignorant assumptions, not born out by a careful examination of the issue and the various reasons people hold the opinions that they do.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
f n o r d
Male User Gallery
Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,191
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3159554 - 09/21/04 01:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Bush will win.  No doubt about it. :frown:  The 2000 election was stolen for him and in the last four years he's done so much to worsen the USA and the world that how can anyone think that he'll or whoever controls him will give that up?  He's "accomplished" so many things, he's not done yet.  Kerry and Bush are on the same team, Bush is already in power, he's going to stay there.  Kerry will lose and start working behind the scenes.  Only an incident of major proportions, I'm talking earth shaking events here, will get the world out of the thousands of years funk that its in.



McKennaDMT


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Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.


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Offlineekomstop
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Registered: 03/31/01
Posts: 1,880
Loc: Canada Flag
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Clean]
    #3159584 - 09/21/04 02:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Clean said:
whoever wins, the people of america and the world will lose.






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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Evolving]
    #3159783 - 09/21/04 02:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm glad to see you wasted your time with a rant merely b/c you didn't read what i said.

Of course many people oppose illegal immigration. But i don't think the issue (and Bush's current actions over it) are really going to lose him any votes, except for hardcore bigots. Extremists (which could include bigots, but not limited to in this case) over any issue will react in such a fashion. Being against illegal immigration and being a bigot are completely seperate in themselves, but you got to admit.. that a portion of the group which opposes it.. are bigots. To deny that is having your head stuck in the sand. Not agreeing with it doesn't make you a bigot though.

There's a good portion of people who don't agree with bush's actions over the issue, but this is not enough for him to lose their vote, especially with the religious in this country.


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Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3159829 - 09/21/04 02:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I can say with absolute certainty that the canditate with the most electoral votes will win.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: retread]
    #3159839 - 09/21/04 03:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

adjust your sig or i'll have an admin do it.....it is waaaaaaaaay beyond the allowed size


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InvisibleJohan Shultz
no title

Registered: 09/26/00
Posts: 169
Loc: UTOPIA
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3159862 - 09/21/04 03:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think, but know that bush is going to win. Sorry:(


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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: retread]
    #3160019 - 09/21/04 03:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

2004 Electoral Vote Tracker
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/election-test-fl,0,1851284.flash
it's continually updated when necessary


Edited by DigitalDuality (09/21/04 03:39 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3160086 - 09/21/04 03:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thanks. cool page.



is it me, or does nader always get special attention?

ask almost any person to name a third party candidate. they'll say "ralph nader". if you watch the news, ralph nader is the third party guy.


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Anonymous

Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3160110 - 09/21/04 03:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

filled in with current poll data:



i predict a bush victory in november.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3160112 - 09/21/04 03:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have an irking feeling Bush will win. And i'm not a conspiracy nut about it (ala Annapurna).

I do think there will be a media scandal (and possibly a real one) concerning voting screw ups, and especially with voting machines..and i don't think Dems will puss out with this fight this time.




so im a conspiracy nut because i used the same conspiracy theory (the diebold effect) that your using above :wtf: ...

but if you are a conspiracy nut..then the diebold conspiracy only becomes significant when kerry actually has a real shot at winning..which he doesnt have at the moment...if your not a conspiracy nut..then the impending bush win is strictly the result of ideological preference towards bush.. or in laymans' terms..most americans are just plain bigots :thumbdown:...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: ]
    #3160122 - 09/21/04 03:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

^

Isn't Badnarik on more ballots than Nader? Haven't Libertarians recieved more ballot spots in Presidential races for the last 10-20 years. Why the hell aren't they given media attention? Or even Greens for that matter (when nader isn't on their ticket of course).


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Anonymous

Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3160123 - 09/21/04 03:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

...the impending bush win is strictly the result of ideological preference towards bush.. or in laymans' terms..most americans are bigots

:lol:

become a writer. please.

:rotfl:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: ]
    #3160142 - 09/21/04 04:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
...the impending bush win is strictly the result of ideological preference towards bush.. or in laymans' terms..most americans are bigots

:lol:

become a writer. please.

:rotfl:




i dont know why you find it so amusing..but you would have to be a bigot to vote for bush...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3160151 - 09/21/04 04:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

no. The theory that the machines are bad is not theory.. it's common knowledge. You seem to think that The right wing is going to hi-jack america, scam it's way to the top without opposition, and are going to set the stage so that the Dems or any other group won't rise up again.. from what i've read of your posts here and on bluelight.

You, nor anyone else, knows to how this election is going to play out. You don't know what problems we are going to have with the machines and voter counts, though we can take an educated guess.. in the end, it's still a guess. There's too many factors. Mass american opinion. Voter turn out. Voting Machines. Third Party canidates. The Electorate College. "IF" there is a voting scandal, will the left stand up and really fight it this time? You seem to claim with certainty. I claim the voting machines are bad, especially b/c of no paper trail, especially b/c the programming code and databases they create are secured as private property from the makers of voting machines (diebold isn't the only company making computerized voting machines)

And while i can take a shot at what i think this not-to-far-away future might turn out to be.. all in all, it's a shot in the dark and i'll admit it.

Only time will tell.. not some magical prediction based off hopeless fear and impending doom. what i find displeasing about your take on the situation is that it's spreading pessimism in the form of hopelessness for a Kerry win. Take some uneducated voter.. who reads your posts, and goes.. well hey, Bush is going to win anyways, the voting machines are fixed anyways.. so why bother voting for Kerry b/c it won't count.


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Anonymous

Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3160153 - 09/21/04 04:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Isn't Badnarik on more ballots than Nader? Haven't Libertarians recieved more ballot spots in Presidential races for the last 10-20 years. Why the hell aren't they given media attention?

yeah, badnarik is on 48 ballots. nader's only on 39.

the libertarian party is the largest third party by far. they hold 590 public office positions (more than all other third parties combined). they contested a majority of the seats in congress in 2000 (the only third party to ever do so), and recieved 1.7 million votes across the board for libertarian house candidates... more than twice as many as any other third party has. they're the only third party to recieve an electoral vote.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3160168 - 09/21/04 04:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Isn't Badnarik on more ballots than Nader?



Yes. Badnarik is on 49(Including DC) currently with a chance of 50. Nader is on 36 currently with a chance of 44. http://www.ballot-access.org/

Quote:

Haven't Libertarians recieved more ballot spots in Presidential races for the last 10-20 years.



Yes.

Quote:

Why the hell aren't they given media attention?



Because the status quo is good.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Anonymous

Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3160172 - 09/21/04 04:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i dont know why you find it so amusing..but you would have to be a bigot to vote for bush...

or you could just be voting for the "lesser of two evils".


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Evolving]
    #3160336 - 09/21/04 04:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

DigitalDuality said:
Bush himself has become more left on certain issues and strayed from party lines.. especially with his actions concerning illegal immigrants (which will buy a signifigant amount of the hispanic vote, but also lose a few (but negligbile amount of bigots).



Interesting... Are you under the impression that unfettered immigration is only opposed by bigots? Are you of the opinion that if a person thinks people should not be rewarded for breaking the law that he is a bigot? Is it your contention that those who are worried about the increasing fiscal burden of hospital emergency rooms being used to treat everyday medical conditions of uninsured illegal aliens and those burdens being passed on in the form of higher insurance premiums are somehow bigots? Is it your insinuation that those who are concerned about the whole host of other services consumed by illegal immigrants that are placing a financial burden on municipalities are bigots because of their concern? Are those who are wary of terrorists coming across the borders among the flood of illegal immigrants bigots because of their recognition of the possibility? If so, those are very ignorant assumptions, not born out by a careful examination of the issue and the various reasons people hold the opinions that they do.




Amen.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3160385 - 09/21/04 04:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Polls have never been 100%, and in the case of our election up here in Canada, we had the New Conservatives party as a major threat to the Liberals, like they were in a dead heat almost. But the conservatives did only half as good as the polls said.

I think that George Bush isnt as far ahead as the polls indicate, and that Kerry isnt exactly that far up either. I think that Both have a real good chance of winning, and you can predict all you want, but numbers and polls only go so far. You just have to wait and see....patience my children!


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3160417 - 09/21/04 04:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Bush will win but Kerry and the left won't except it so they'll bitch and complain about being president in exile, just like Al Gore, even if he loses the popular vote. For Kerry there is no possibility of losing without some conspiracy to cheat him so I'm sure he will contest it.

In this case, regardless of who wins the Constitution loses as the peaceful transfer of power erodes.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3160442 - 09/21/04 05:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think it will be a landslide.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3160486 - 09/21/04 05:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DigitalDuality said:
I'm glad to see you wasted your time with a rant merely b/c you didn't read what i said.



Rant? Guess it's easier to label a series of questions 'a rant' then to address them rationally...

Quote:

But i don't think the issue (and Bush's current actions over it) are really going to lose him any votes, except for hardcore bigots.



Why do you add the asinine, 'except for hardcore bigots'?

Quote:

Extremists (which could include bigots, but not limited to in this case) over any issue will react in such a fashion.



There you go again, using liberal code words in an apparent attempt to not so subtly smear people who oppose unfettered illegal immigration... 'bigots' and 'extremists.' There are many reasonable people who do not like Bush's policies for very solid reasons, that you feel the need to resort to emotionally laden labels does not bolster any well reasoned analysis of the issue (should you attempt to offer one).

Quote:

...that a portion of the group which opposes it.. are bigots.



That a minority of those who oppose unfettered illegal immigration may be bigots or extremists (a subjective term) has no bearing on the validity of their arguments ( argumentum ad hominem ). The arguments can stand or fall on their merits alone.

Quote:

There's a good portion of people who don't agree with bush's actions over the issue, but this is not enough for him to lose their vote, especially with the religious in this country.



I know of people who have decided to not support Bush, citing as a very important reason his immigration policy in light of 9/11 - people who have never expressed bigoted remarks to me or any mutual acquaintances. It may be if enough people are made aware of the issue and how it affects them that they will also change their minds. That is after all, the purpose of political discourse.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: ]
    #3160822 - 09/21/04 06:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i dont know why you find it so amusing..but you would have to be a bigot to vote for bush...

or you could just be voting for the "lesser of two evils".




OK..so only a bigot finds bush the lesser evil...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3160946 - 09/21/04 06:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hehehe these bush guys are soooooooo cocky ...if he loses..i wanna know what are u bushaholics gonna do?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3160955 - 09/21/04 06:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Act like adults and not spew "Bush won" bullshit like so many whiners currently do about Gore.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

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Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3162566 - 09/21/04 11:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Any bookie worth his salt would happily take your bet on Kerry today at 7-9 odds. That is, you bet $70 that Kerry will win and if he does you receive $90 from the bookie. At this point in the game he is a decided underdog.

But it's still six weeks till the election. Things can change.

pinky


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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3163003 - 09/22/04 01:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Well if we ever really found out who won, maybe people wouldn't bitch.


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3163127 - 09/22/04 01:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

the election is rigged your vote doesnt countit is just their to make mtv get money and distract america from real issues. the powers to be deside who wins and that is going to be kerry. a win for kerry is more of a win for bush than anything. his win will be a false victory for actavists and protesters that have been fooled Bush is the only bad guy. kerrys win willjust let him have a easyer time taking away the same rights his skull and bones brother was takeing. and this goes for nadar and all the third partys too. you have no choice. reject the system. REAL AMERICANS DONT VOTE


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3163650 - 09/22/04 06:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DigitalDuality said:
Well if we ever really found out who won, maybe people wouldn't bitch.



You must have missed the news then. It was Bush.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3163987 - 09/22/04 10:53 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
a win for kerry is more of a win for bush than anything. his win will be a false victory for actavists and protesters that have been fooled Bush is the only bad guy. kerrys win willjust let him have a easyer time taking away the same rights his skull and bones brother was takeing.



:thumbup:
Quote:

REAL AMERICANS DONT VOTE



You may be correct, when the vote tallies come in it may be that the majority of those eligible to vote have selected, 'none of the above' as their true choice - realizing the system is rigged and that their opinions don't matter to the power players except as much as they can be used to paint a veneer of legitimacy on their grabs for more power.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3164646 - 09/22/04 02:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

when over 100,000 votes weren't counted and 55,000 people weren't allowed to illegally,

you sure you can make that call?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3165435 - 09/22/04 05:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yup. While you like complaining about Florida, what about areas where 100% of the vote went to Gore? What about his attempt to disallow military votes on technicalities? What about uncounted votes in democratic strongholds? What about the 46,000 voters from Florida that are registered in both NY and Florida? How about the dead who voted? What about the judges who allowed polling places to remain open past the time set in law?

Why not whine about all that as well? Could it be because your guy lost?

Gore lost. Get over it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3165453 - 09/22/04 05:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Yup. While you like complaining about Florida, what about areas where 100% of the vote went to Gore? What about his attempt to disallow military votes on technicalities? What about uncounted votes in democratic strongholds? What about the 46,000 voters from Florida that are registered in both NY and Florida? How about the dead who voted? What about the judges who allowed polling places to remain open past the time set in law?

Why not whine about all that as well? Could it be because your guy lost?

Gore lost. Get over it.




100% of the vote?

Source, please.

Take your time, luvdem.


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: Zahid]
    #3165748 - 09/22/04 06:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry to all. As I was searching I recalled it was HRC who received 100% in a precinct in (I believe) NYC. As I am unable to find percentages by precinct I'll be unable to say which one.

I was wrong. I withdraw my statement.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3165759 - 09/22/04 06:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)



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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3166483 - 09/22/04 09:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Sorry to all. As I was searching I recalled it was HRC who received 100% in a precinct in (I believe) NYC. As I am unable to find percentages by precinct I'll be unable to say which one.

I was wrong. I withdraw my statement.




It wasn't in NYC it was somewhat, but not a lot, outside in an orthodox Jewish community called Kiryas Jo'el. They are not far removed from the Moonies there and there have been some leaders put in jail for cheating the state out of school funds. The rabbis did deliver the town for the bitch though and some of these fine rabbis received pardons from guess who?


--------------------


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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3166649 - 09/22/04 09:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3167661 - 09/23/04 12:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Yup. While you like complaining about Florida, what about areas where 100% of the vote went to Gore? What about his attempt to disallow military votes on technicalities? What about uncounted votes in democratic strongholds? What about the 46,000 voters from Florida that are registered in both NY and Florida? How about the dead who voted? What about the judges who allowed polling places to remain open past the time set in law?

Why not whine about all that as well? Could it be because your guy lost?

Gore lost. Get over it.




Why is a soldier protected from "technicalities" and i am not? Is there some subsection to a rule around there claiming they're exemption from it. If you can't vote on time then don't vote.

And no it isn't b/c my guy lost. Frankly i hate Gore. But with hindsight vision, he might have been the better option. There is always going to be individual voting scams.

Kinda how Republicans will vote for certain Dems in primaries, and vice versa. There needs to be a crack down on that, I agree.

But you're avoiding heavily documented data about blacks being ticketed for loitering while in voting lines, blacks who weren't even felons being not allowed to vote, an old jim-crow law banning ex-felons from voting who already served their time being handled in the most sloppy way imaginable by a privatized company (who's board members were all prominent GOP vets), while the head of elections in FL.. just so happened to be the head of the Bush campaign in Florida.

Why were 175,000 votes not re-counted? Why weren't ALL the machines re-checked like they were supposed to be. Why are we NOW moving to computerized voting with no paper trail, and audits becoming an impossibility due to company's claiming them as they're property? Why is a GOP dominated government giving a tax incentive for states to use these voting machines with no paper trail?

Hispanic votes were already "mistakenly blocked" with these machines in Florida. Choicepoint/DBT admitted there was a high false positive list in their database.. yet the gov't and DBT/Choicepoint kept this list long enough (2 more years) in order to get Katherine Harris into the House of Rep. and to get Jeb Bush re-elected.

From the votes that were counted, yes Gore lost the popular vote. But 100s of thousands were not counted and/or illegally told they couldn't vote.

But the illegal disenfrachisement of black votes through innaccurate "felon reform" and the fact that the Republicans took it to court (Federal court mind you, not state court.. gee wonder why) to keep the rest of 175,000 votes from being counted.. the answer is "we still don't know who won". But after 55,000 people being kept from voting, many not felons.. just have matching last names.. or matching birthdays.. how can you claim you know? And if this innaccurate and unjust voter reform was just a mistake.. why did they keep it for 2 more years when the FL Governor election came about?


The issue is NOT just the fact that they purged felon voters.
It is that Harris, Sandra Mortham, (both prot?g?es of Governor Jeb Bush) and their crew hired DBT Online (now owned by Choicepoint)and paid them $4.3 million for its work, replacing a firm that charged $5,700 per year for the same service, to create these Felon 'black lists' then send those lists to each county in FL.
Now there shouldn't be a problem if the lists were somewhat accurate...but here take a look at 20 names from the actual DBT list.



Quote:

Two of these "scrub lists," as officials called them, were distributed to counties in the months before the election with orders to remove the voters named. Together the lists comprised nearly 1 percent of Florida?s electorate and nearly 3 percent of its African-American voters. Most of the voters (such as "David Butler," (1); a name that appears 77 times in Florida phone books) were selected because their name, gender, birthdate and race matched - or nearly matched - one of the tens of millions of ex-felons in the United States. Neither DBT nor the state conducted any further research to verify the matches. DBT, which frequently is hired by the F.B.I. to conduct manhunts, originally proposed using address histories and financial records to confirm the names, but the state declined the cross-checks. In Harris?s elections office files, next to DBT's sophisticated verification plan, there is a hand-written note: 'DON'T NEED.'



Thomas Alvin Cooper (2), twenty-eight, was flagged because of a crime for which he will be convicted in the year 2007. According to Florida?s elections division, this intrepid time-traveler will cover his tracks by moving to Ohio, adding a middle name, and changing his race. Harper's found 325 names on the list with conviction dates in the future, a fact that did not escape Department of Elections workers, who, in June 2000 emails headed, "Future Conviction Dates," termed the discovery, "bad news." Rather than release this whacky data to skeptical counties, Janet Mudrow, state liaison to DBT, suggested that ?blanks would be preferable in these cases." (Harper's counted 4,917 blank conviction dates.) The one county that checked each of the 694 names on its local list could verify only 34 as actual felony convicts. Some counties defied Harris' directives; Madison County's elections supervisor Linda Howell refused the purge list after she found her own name on it.



Rev. Willie Dixon (3), seventy, was guilty of a crime in his youth; but one phone call would have told the state that it had already pardoned Dixon and restored his right to vote. On behalf of Dixon and other excluded voters, the NAACP in January 2001 sued Florida and Harris, after finding that African-Americans?who account for 13 percent of Florida's electorate and 46 percent of U.S. felony convictions ?were four times as likely as whites to be incorrectly singled out under the state's methodology. After the election, Harris and her elections chief Clay Roberts, testified under oath that verifying the lists was solely the work of county supervisors. But the Florida-DBT contract (marked "Secret" and "Confidential") holds DBT responsible for 'manual verification using telephone calls.' in fact, with the state's blessing, DBT did not call a single felon. When I asked Roberts about the contract during an interview for BBC television, Roberts ripped off his microphone, ran into his office, locked the door, and called in state troopers to remove us.



Johnny Jackson Jr. (4), thirty-two, has never been to Texas, and his mother swears he never had the middle name 'Fitzgerald.' Neither is there evidence that John Fitzgerald Jackson, felon of Texas, has ever left the Lone Star State. But even if they were the same man, removing him from Florida's voter rolls is an unconstitutional act. Texas is among the thirty five states where ex-felons are permitted to vote, and the "full faith and credit" clause of the U.S. Constitution forbids states to revoke any civil rights that a citizen has been granted by another state; in fact, the Florida Supreme Court had twice ordered the state not to do so, just nine months before the voter purge. Nevertheless, at least 2,873 voters were wrongly removed, a purge authorized by a September 18, 2000 letter to counties from Governor Bush's clemency office. On February 23, 2001, days after the U.S. Commission of Civil Rights began investigating the matters, Bush's office issued a new letter allowing these persons to vote; no copies of the earlier letter could be found in the clemency office or on its computers.



Wallace McDonald (5), sixty-four, lost his right to vote in 2000, though his sole run-in with the law was a misdemeanor in 1959. (He fell asleep on a bus-stop bench.) Of the "matches' on these lists, the civil-rights commission estimated that at least 14 percent - or 8,000 voters, nearly 15 times Bush's official margin of victory - were false. DBT claims it warned officials "a significant number of people who were not a felon would be included on the list"; but the state, the company now says, "wanted there to be more names than were actually verified." Last May, Florida's legislature barred Harris from using outside firms to build the purge list and ordered her to seek guidance from county elections officials. In defiance, Harris has rebuffed the counties and hired another firm, just in time for Jeb Bush's reelection fight this fall.
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=122&row=1





Quote:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A99749-2001May30

Botched Name Purge Denied Some the Right to Vote

By Robert E. Pierre
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 31, 2001; Page A01

Excerpt:

TAMPA -- Kelvin King was turned away from the polls here in November when records showed that he was ineligible to vote as a convicted felon. County election officials learned days later that King's civil rights had been restored eight months earlier.

Sandylynn Williams had voted in every election since she was 18. But this time, election officials confused her with her sister -- a felon who had once used Williams's name -- and refused to let her vote.

"They sent me a letter of apology, and I just laughed," recalled Williams, 34, who said she had planned to vote for Democratic nominee Al Gore. "I was cheated out of voting."

The Tampa residents were among hundreds, perhaps thousands, of non-felons in Florida who civil rights lawyers contend were wrongly prevented from voting in the Nov. 7 election after state election officials and a private contractor bungled an attempt to cleanse felons from voter rolls.

The effort was so riddled with errors that a more precise tally will probably never be possible. But it is clear that at least 2,000 felons whose voting rights had been automatically restored in other states were kept off the rolls and, in many cases, denied the right to vote.

At the same time, some felons who should not have been allowed to vote slipped through and cast ballots.

Although the troubles with Florida's election procedures have been widely reported, the full breadth of the flaws in the state's system has emerged only over time. Florida's many problems, according to state and national inquiries and a review by The Washington Post, include unreliable voting machines, improper counting of absentee ballots and arbitrary and conflicting decisions by county election officials, to name a few.

Still underway is an examination of approximately 170,000 Florida ballots rejected by counting machines in November. The project, conducted by a consortium of news organizations that includes The Post, is designed to learn how so many potential votes went uncounted.

Six months removed from the charged post-election recounts, it is also clear, in the words of a state task force that reviewed the election, that many of the difficulties were "most serious in precincts with large numbers of elderly, low-income, immigrant, minority or inexperienced voters."

The impact of the botched felon purge fell disproportionately on black Floridians and, by extension, on the Democratic Party, which won the votes of 9 out of every 10 African American voters, according to exit polls.







WHen Voters were harassed by police (black voters mind you) for "loitering" while standing in line to vote.. you mean to tell me that didn't have an effect?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/opinion/16herbert.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/opinio...fPaul%20Krugman

Another, earlier piece on this that was confirmed by the above Washington Post article:
Quote:


http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/12/04/voter_file/index.html

Florida's flawed "voter-cleansing" program

Secretary of State Katherine Harris hired a firm to vet the rolls for felons, but that may have wrongly kept thousands, particularly blacks, from casting ballots.


Excerpt:

December 04, 2000 | If Vice President Al Gore is wondering where his Florida votes went, rather than sift through a pile of chad, he might want to look at a "scrub list" of 173,000 names targeted to be knocked off the Florida voter registry by a division of the office of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris. A close examination suggests thousands of voters may have lost their right to vote based on a flaw-ridden list that included purported "felons" provided by a private firm with tight Republican ties.

Early in the year, the company, ChoicePoint, gave Florida officials a list with the names of 8,000 ex-felons to "scrub" from their list of voters. But it turns out none on the list were guilty of felonies, only misdemeanors. The company acknowledged the error, and blamed it on the original source of the list -- the state of Texas.

Florida officials moved to put those falsely accused by Texas back on voter rolls before the election. Nevertheless, the large number of errors uncovered in individual counties suggests that thousands of eligible voters may have been turned away at the polls.

Florida is the only state that pays a private company that promises to "cleanse" voter rolls.The state signed in 1998 a $4 million contract with DBT Online, since merged into ChoicePoint, of Atlanta. The creation of the scrub list, called the central voter file, was mandated by a 1998 state voter fraud law, which followed a tumultuous year that saw Miami's mayor removed after voter fraud in the election, with dead people discovered to have cast ballots. The voter fraud law required all 67 counties to purge voter registries of duplicate registrations, deceased voters and felons, many of whom, but not all, are barred from voting in Florida.

In the process, however, the list invariably targets a minority population in Florida, where 31 percent of all black men cannot vote because of a ban on felons. In compiling a list by looking at felons from other states, Florida could, in the process, single out citizens who committed felons in other states but, after serving their time or successfully petitioning the courts, had their voting rights returned to them. According to Florida law, felons can vote once their voting rights have been reinstated.

And if this unfairly singled out minorities, it unfairly handicapped Gore: In Florida, 93 percent of African-Americans voted for the vice president.

In the 10 counties contacted by Salon, use of the central voter file seemed to vary wildly. Some found the list too unreliable and didn't use it at all. But most counties appear to have used the file as a resource to purge names from their voter rolls, with some counties making little -- or no -- effort at all to alert the "purged" voters. Counties that did their best to vet the file discovered a high level of errors, with as many as 15 percent of names incorrectly identified as felons.

News coverage has focused on some maverick Florida counties that decided not to use the central voter file, essentially breaking the law and possibly letting some ineligible felons vote. On Friday, the Miami Herald reported that after researching voter records in 12 Florida counties -- but primarily in Palm Beach and Duval counties, which didn't use the file -- it found that more than 445 felons had apparently cast ballots in the presidential election.

But Palm Beach and Duval weren't the only counties to dump the list after questioning its accuracy. Madison County's elections supervisor, Linda Howell, had a peculiarly personal reason for distrusting the central voter file: She had received a letter saying that since she had committed a felony, she would not be allowed to vote.

Howell, who said she has never committed a felony, said the letter she received in March shook her faith in the process. "It really is a mess," she said.


]

And I'm not one to go in for questionable charges of cheating (in 2000 Bush won, and would've won whether Gore got his recount or not) -- but the Florida felon stuff this year is a fucking despicable outrage. I don't know whether or not there was anything suspect with the felon purge in 2000... whatever, what matters here is that it had problems which caused an uproar and charges it had been rigged, and so Jeb Bush promised to fix it up and do better in 2004.

So... the FL government comes up with this new, better, list, knowing the big problems the last one caused them and reassuring people this one would be accurate.

But then they refused to release it to journalists. And refused. When CNN and some FL newspapers sued to get it released, they fought it, but lost (the FL constitution requires the public be given access to public state records.) So they let people see it.

Then, the next day, the next fucking day, the Miami Herald found 2,119 people who weren't supposed to be there because they had had their voting rights restored. Whoops. FL took them off.

Then the Sarasota Herald Tribune noticed that, oddly enough, there were almost no Hispanics on the list -- only 61 out of 40,000+ , in fucking Florida. Curiously, Hispanics in Florida (being largely Cubans) vote Republican; in 2000 they went for Bush over Gore by about a 2-1 margin.

Guess what... an 'unintentional' computer 'glitch' that had somehow slipped by them, which blocked people who listed themselves as Hispanic from getting on. Another one! Which just coincidentally happens to benefit the Republicans! Again!

And it would have all gone 'unnoticed' if the government had succeeded in keeping the media from getting the list like they tried to! Jesus fucking Christ...


This is all fact -- a matter of public record -- see:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/01/florida.elections/
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/9062928.htm?1c
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/11/State/Florida_scraps_felon_.shtml
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-07-10-felons-vote-fla_x.htm?POE=click-refer


Well if you haven't noticed but Tom Brokaw of NBC Nightly News has set his retirement date for Dec. 1st. I'm sure he did that to cover the entire election, the voting count, the recount, and the supreme court decision.


Edited by DigitalDuality (09/23/04 12:56 AM)


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3167789 - 09/23/04 01:07 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Here's yet more extensive testimony about voting irregularities affecting the black vote in 2000, from a Congressional hearing on the matter:

http://www.house.gov/scott/transcript_of_voting_irregularities.htm
How much more stuff would you like me to post?


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Oh wait.. racism in elections isn't new, [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3167813 - 09/23/04 01:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hell it never stopped...

Quote:


In every national American election since Reconstruction, every election since the Voting Rights Act was passed, voters ? particularly African American voters and other minorities ? have faced calculated and determined efforts at intimidation and suppression. The bloody days of violence and retribution following the Civil War and Reconstruction are gone. The poll taxes, literacy tests and physical violence of the Jim Crow era have disappeared. Today, more subtle, cynical and creative tactics have taken their place.

Here are just a few recent examples:

- In 2004 in Texas, students at a majority black college were challenged by a local district attorney?s absurd claim that they were not eligible to vote in the county where the school was located. It happened in Waller County ? the same county where 26 years earlier, a federal court order was required to prevent the local registrar from discriminating against the students
.
- In 2003 in Philadelphia, voters in African American areas were systematically challenged by men carrying clipboards, driving a fleet of some 300 sedans with magnetic signs designed to look like law enforcement insignia.

- In 2002 in Louisiana, flyers were distributed in African American communities telling voters they could go to the polls on Tuesday, December 10th ? two days after a special Senate election was held.

- In 2000 in Florida, thousands of voters whose names mistakenly appeared on a flawed list of felons were purged from the state?s voter rolls. Despite the ensuing outcry and litigation, the state has not yet restored the rights of many of those voters --and in fact has begun a new purge of an additional 40,000 names for the 2004 election.

- In 1998 in North Carolina, GOP officials openly planned to videotape voters in heavily Democratic districts in a partisan attempt to avoid alleged ?voter fraud,? until the Justice Department stepped in to warn that taping minority voters at or near the polls would violate federal election laws.




http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/jimcrow.pdf

If that's too much reading altogether.. here's a short flash.
http://www.bushflash.com./gta.html


Edited by DigitalDuality (09/23/04 01:18 AM)


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3167881 - 09/23/04 01:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"The 2004 presidential election is a battle fought not just with heart, but also with other vital organs, bones, and joints belonging to the two leading candidates. It's also fought with minds, but not those of the candidates. Because elections are serious business, they are strictly controlled by a shadowy cabal of lecherous men unafraid to consume live human babies in rituals that pay tribute to our secret satanic alien overlords. The two candidates we have to pick from are George W Bush, who is mentally retarded, and John Kerry, who is some kind of asshole yet to be properly classified by science.

In the mainstream world of the two party candidates, most issues relevant to Americans are either avoided or dressed up in goofy propaganda, like the hilarious "War on Terror" gag that's making its rounds. Instead we focus on important matters like whether or not George Bush dodged the draft, or weather or not John Kerry truly killed enough Viet Cong to be classified as an American Hero. Nobody bothers to mention that George Bush and John Kerry were both inarguably absent from not just World War I, but also World War II. Those were the two most important wars in modern history, so why did they choose to hide in the shadows while braver men gave their lives? Furthermore, both were noticeably absent from fighting in the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a clear indication they have no real interest in active participation in armed conflict."


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

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Posts: 1,265
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3167889 - 09/23/04 01:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

nothing is fought the election is rigged your vote dosent count. REAL AMERICANS DONT VOTE


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3167908 - 09/23/04 01:28 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Not voting won't make a difference in a staged election.

The idea is to get the whole administration out of office so we can take our hi-jacked country back.


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3167938 - 09/23/04 01:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

wtf. hi jacked. its been hijacked for years. when bush looses it wont do shit but give a false victory to protesters and actavists so kerry has a easy time taking our rights away. bush and kerry are skull and bones cousins. the only way to fix and really change things is to not vote and not accept the system. it is too corrupt to change from within and we must simply abandon it


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3167954 - 09/23/04 01:38 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe if a high percentage of Americans were aware of the facts not voting would actually make a difference.


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3167956 - 09/23/04 01:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Simply abandon it?

I'm sorry, but i think i'd be justified in saying that i speak for Reps, Dems, Greens, Libertarians, Nader-lovers, The Constitution Party, The Reform Party.. the fucken Family Values Party.. the NAACP and the KKK..

in that you're fucking nuts. Abandon the system? And then what do you think would be the result of that genius? YOu think the people would be in control at all anymore?


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

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Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3167970 - 09/23/04 01:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you gotta start somwhere you know during the first revolution in the begining less than 5% supported the revolution


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3167988 - 09/23/04 01:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Over 50% (and counting) of New Yorkers are already behind the next one. Things should start getting interesting soon enough.


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3168025 - 09/23/04 01:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What has revolution ever really solved?

It just re-arranges the power structure and starts the same evil over again. It may do it on a long time span..but it does it nonetheless.


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3168066 - 09/23/04 02:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This time can be different. We have the internet to communicate with eachother, something that was not available in the past. We have a source of information that can by-pass the fear mongering mind manipulation game our governments subject us to, grabbing people by the balls, getting them into thinking they are here to help (bullshit). With this tool more people can get an objective view on what is really happening on a global scale. And we are. The next revolution will put an end to the massive war on information that the governments are upholding. If it comes down to violence, it would surely be the result of more government sponsored terrorism.


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3168097 - 09/23/04 02:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

this revolution will be diffrent


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OfflineDigitalDuality
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Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: usefulidiot]
    #3168098 - 09/23/04 02:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

but every revolution is "different" the roles people play out never change.

The middle class has a few great "leaders", who speak to the middle and lower class masses. Most of the people backing these "leaders" honestly don't have much of a clue of what is really going on (kinda like the % of the american populace who couldn't name you 3 foriegn leaders other than Tony Blair... or why "Jay-walking" segments on Jay Leno even exist). But even though they are ignorant it seems like a good idea to rise up anyways.

So the elite get overthrown, these new middle class leaders and a few "reformed" old school leaders take the "throne" so to speak, some of the middle class remains middle class, most of the poor remain poor.. and the new elite become corrupted again and old bearucratic red tape is given way to new beaucractic red tape.

Revolution, especially in a country as good as america (even though i could bitch about faults day in and day out) is a pipe dream anyways.

There is never a "revolution" or even a civil war, unless the people are poor, starving, and really really fucking uneducated. People here are far to content to do anything anyways. We have a hard enough time getting people to vote..now you want them to take to the streets? Gimme a break.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3168140 - 09/23/04 02:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Simply because people inevitably fall back into tyranny is not a good argument against revolution. On the contrary, it is a compelling argument for it. Thomas Jefferson believed that there should be a revolution about every 20 years to keep the government from getting too powerful. I am confident that had this happened, we would not have the massive leviathon of a government that currently exists. However, I must say that revolution is of secondary importance next to evolution.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleusefulidiot
It's notfascist, it's...Neoconservative!

Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 732
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3168176 - 09/23/04 02:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Who said anything about taking to the streets? People need to realize we are human beings, and as such, we should be working together to help make life worth while for everyone. Over the years people have been pratically conditioned first 'suspect' others before trusting others. We have been polorized. This isn't our fault, it's the limited scope of information we are constantly subjected to's fault. I think this has the potential to be a peaceful revolution. Regardless, if we don't change humanitys direction soon, we are going to be sealing the envelope ensuring that our next generation of children grow up into a complete fascist police-state nightmare. I feel it is our duty as human beings to do what we can do, to make sure that doesn't happen. They are taking advantage of you, don't you see? Anyone? Is anybody there?

Don't forget we can create nearly self-sufficient communities if hemp were legal. This is all within the realm of reason. They may need us, but we don't need them.


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OfflineDigitalDuality
enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/04
Posts: 354
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3168178 - 09/23/04 02:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If enough people participated in government.. there wouldn't be a need for revolution. I think finding ways to motivate the public to care and participate would be far more successful, and far less bloody.. don't you?

And you.. and Jefferson's definition of tyranny.. might not be another sect of society's definition.

Is a nation that the majority supports social programs considered "tyranny" that depends if you're asking the socialist, moderate, or anarchist now doesn't it?

ANd who decides when government is "too big"? Many would say that about over government today. or even the USA 40 years ago, 70 years ago. Many don't think it's big enough in some areas. Some are rather picky about the areas in which they think big gov't is a good idea or a bad idea. So how would you propose is a fair way for deciding when to act, and who should lead.. and why would that person be justified in his/her actions?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3176013 - 09/24/04 06:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

bump


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InvisibleAhronZombi
AhronZombi

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 1,265
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: DigitalDuality]
    #3176727 - 09/24/04 10:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

the more people that participate in government wont change government but change more peopl. it will brain wash them. we can get rid of the government w/o it being bloody


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Offlineekomstop
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Registered: 03/31/01
Posts: 1,880
Loc: Canada Flag
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Who do you think will win the election? [Re: AhronZombi]
    #3176897 - 09/24/04 11:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

we can get rid of the government w/o it being bloody




Probably alot easier said than done..they have a millitary. Plus they have also been taking steps toward ripping appart the Posse Comitatus act. Scary shit.


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