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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea?
    #16049752 -

So I've been experimenting and thinking.

Can I mix up 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, and 10% bran (by volume) soak in coffee, boil, drain, stuff in large filterpatch bag, autoclave for 3hrs, and then just knock up with say 6cc LC per lb.  Then just let colonize and fruit from that bag? 

1) would this work?
2) benifits/drawbacks?
3) would there be a better ratio?
4) more or less lc?
5) more or less time in the autoclave?
6) can I fill the bag past the filterpatch? Or another way of asking, can my substrate touch the filter patch?
7) would knocking up directly through the bag and covering hole with medical tape be ok?

I had some extra straw made up from making some straw logs the ole fashioned way (85%straw, 5%wbs, 5%bran, 5%coffee grounds) and decided to throw it in a few filter patch bags and clave to test.  I made 6.  Each about 13-14lbs.  2 I knocked up with enoki, 2 blue oyster, and 2 shiitake.  Just a test, but wanted others thoughts.  If this works, Ill be able to quit buying up all the quart masong jars in my city, and I'll have to worry about contamns less because Ill be colonizing in the bag then going directly to fruit with no transfers to a bulk sub.  Also if this works ill have to use the biodegradeable bags I've read about on here.  Any thoughts on those.

(Jeez so many questions huh?)

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: philanthropy]
    #16049950 -

That is a very rich sub.  Shiitake will not fruit well, oysters should do fine but you are still over doing it, and I have no idea about enoki.  I think 3 hrs is overkill. 90-120 min will do.  Why not just make grain spawn in a bag for the oysters and then spawn pasteutized straw  for bulk.  Shiitake and enoki there are better methods as well.

Trout


--------------------
I need tropical cultures, ABM, V.v....!!!!

Well things don't always look as they are and things can be misread and mistaken for what they realy are so don't read too much into what I say since I might be mistaken myself. And remember I rarely ever give a definate answer.

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: philanthropy]
    #16049984 -

1 probley more and less depending on type of mushroom
2 not sure try and see
3 depends on what u are growing
4 to much lc in a bag makes a gooey bottom of bag
5 I think 3 hours is overkill
6 no
7 yeah u can, but i just barely open one side of bag and squirt lc in . Its a little more aggrevating but I have noticed less contams..


Let us know how it goes

southern

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: trout]
    #16050183 -

Thanks for the advice guys!  :smile:

Trout:  1) I was worried about this being too rich.  What ratios would you recomend for a) oyster, b)shitake c)enoki d)giant puffball?
2) 90-120 is ok even when you have 30+lbs of sub in an autoclave?  I have two D.A. Kadan model 641 autoclaves (like an AA941, hold 21 quart jars, or 6x 6lb bags that are folded accordian style).  I do 90 min when I have 21 quart jars 3/4 full.  Ive done 6x 6lb bags full of rye berries in 2hrs in there and they are colonizing fine so far, still waiting to see how it goes.  The bags I filled with the extra straw were about 13-14lbs each bag.  I could only get 2 in there.  I did them for 3hrs.  Im guessing since the sub is touching the filters that they are going to fail since the poster after you says that's a no no.  But I was thinking, the more sub, the more time.  With the 6x 6lb bags, that's 36lbs.  Is 90-120 ok for that much weight?
3) I currently spawn rye in quart jars, and transfer to pasturized straw logs.  Im a noob and still experimenting (4 months solid now).  I was thinking if I can just cook up bags as described above, it means less time spent cleaning 42 mason jars everyday.  Less mason jars to buy.  Less shelves to buy for mason jars.  Less filter lids to buy.  Less space in my room for mason jars.  And with the mason jars (or even bulk rye spawn in a bag) to straw log, I have to open the mason jar, and its exposed to open air (so is the straw) while I make the log.  I use a fog machine to asperiate the room full of triethylene glycol while doing this, and I shower + wear masks and use lots of alcohol.  But if I just cooked up a bag, knocked with a needle of lc, colonized, then cut open n let fruit, its not only less work, but its less chance for contamination.  Right?

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: SOUTHERN]
    #16050250 -

Thanks also southern :smile:

4)  what's a good amount of LC per lb of sub in a bag?  In my quart jars (about 1lb of wbs, still not sure weight of rye since I just switched, but im sure its about 1lb also), I've tried 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, n 12cc of LC.  Seems 8 works the best, but typically I use 4, its not that much slower than 8, and a lot less LC to make.  I only have enough lids for 24LC jars at a time.

5) can you read my response to trout above about time and verify my thoughts?  If im putting 36lbs of sub in a clave, wouldn't I want more time than 90-120 minutes?  Or is 90-120 fine?

6) so if no sub is supposed to be in contact with the filter patch, am I supposed to fill to just below and inflatem then impulse seal or twist tie the top so that the filter patch can allow the bag to breathe?  I've made some 6lb bags, but I folded accordian style with a tyvek sleve as a filter like in the RR videos.  Doing that kinda makes buying filter patch bags worthless, since the sleve is the filter.

7) on my 6lb bags I've inoculated in 4 and 6 different points and covered holes with tape.  I flame between each knock point. Stick needle in red hot, and put tape over needle while I pull the needle out.  So far no contamns.  I also shower first, wear surgical mask, and work in a room that is aspirated with tri ethylene glycol via fog machine while I work (tri ethylene glycol is the active ingredient in oust.  So its like I let of a buncha cans of out in my room)  I love in a 100 year old house, and plan on building a mushroom hut outta logs n straw bails n dirt, so im trying to keep my exposure (opening bags) to a minimum.  Since Im a noob and dont have the experience yet to know, what kinda contamn rates would you guess id be lookin at doing it this way vs opening a little like you recommend?  Also if doing the accordian/tyvek way, how would you open the bag without breaking the seal?

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: philanthropy]
    #16051743 -

Hi Phil....

Having a high percentage of supplements causes problems:

Contamination risk rises dramatically & mushroom caps have a high rate of mutation. 

Really no advantage and a lot of disadvantages.  Save the expense of all those supplements, hold your supplementation rate between 5% and 20% and work on growing a consistent, high quality product.

If you haven't seen these posts already, they are good information:

Lipa's Shiitake on Straw

Expert Cultivation Guide

I highly recommend:

"Mushrooms: cultivation, nutritional value, medicinal effect, and environmental  impact"  by Shu-ting Chang, Philip G. Miles

and

"Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms" by Paul Stamets

as mandatory reads for this business/hobby.

The main thing is to start with proven techniques, then experiment from a known point of success.  Read everything Roger Rabbit posts as he is one of the most knowledgeable participants here, and HAVE FUN!


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin ----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: OICU812]
    #16051862 -

Not only does a highly supplemented substrate not work well, I know of zero commercial growers who use LC to inoculate, because it's just too prone to failure.  When you move to edibles, leave the noob cube stuff in the dust and follow more reliable procedures.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #16052024 -

Thanks for the recomendations oicu812 & rogerrabbit

Yes, I am practicing the known techniques, not trying to reinvent the wheel, i just like to experiment with variations to learn from inbetween.  I had read somewhere about better nutritional value and flavor of gourmets with the right mix, I guess im trying to find what that mix could be for my varaities.

Roger, at your shiitake farm your doing, could I get some more info about your proceedure there?  I've been reading lots of your posts (and lots of others) over the past months.  Im just guessing here from reading your posts but lemme know if this is correct.

1) im guessing your knocking up rye jars or bags from agar isolations, possibly made from master slants of genitics you've already isolated?
2) im guessing you expand that spawn via grain to grain transfer?
3) then im guessing you transfer the spawn to a sawdust/woodchip mix with 5% barn snake n let colonize.
4) they you fruit that as a block in your underground shipping container. (Or do you colonize & fruit in there?)

Im a voluenteer organizer for a urban garden in Flint Mi.  Its the brokest place in america. At our garden we are not just trying to teach the community about gardening, but sustainability, permaculture, natural technologies, block redevelopment, and much more.  We've started teying to buy up all the abandon homes in our little 4 block area and currently have 6, put in an offer yesterday for the 7th (we buy the homes for anywhere froma few hundered dollars, to a couple thousand bucks).  We are converting the homes to rocket thermal mass heaters, rainwater catchment, and more to show how people can live sustainabily.  However all this takes allllll our time, and at the moment, we work at this for free, and out of our own pocket.  We want to upgrade our urban garden to an urban farm and start farming mushrooms for profit.  There's hundreds, maybe thousands 4 & 5 star resturaunts within a 1-2 hr drive of here, and lots of cities (detroit, ann arbor, lansing, etc..).  Were thinking oysters on suplimented straw (which were also using 5o mycoremediate land out here that gets poluted from arsons), shitakes on hardwood dust n wood chips, supplimented with bran (still trying to find organic sawdust, is this usually free?), and honestly, were not sure what to do with our enokis or puffball mushrooms yet, but we would like to do those also.  Were getting there, its just hard, most of us make about 4-8k a year right now, so not much to invest...  You can check us out at facebook/peacemobgardens

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: philanthropy]
    #16053840 -

As been said before, over supplementation is asking for mutants... If you are looking for a profit from this,  you shouldn't be wasting your resources on over supplementing bags. I can get straw, paper/cardboard, and wood chips for much cheaper than I can get rye. Then I can make sure thing clean spawn from grain without having to do small tests as I would have to do with an LC first. Then using that grain spawn as a supplement I can get away with only pasteurizing my low nutrient substrate. Which is much more efficient on my end, I don't have a large autoclave to sterilize everything.

I think you have the idea, more supplementation equals more/bigger fruits. That's been proven false again and again. Your current mix, if it doesn't contaminate first, will make mutants even out of oysters, which are pretty amazing in how much tolerance and abuse they can take.

All and all experimentation is good. I've done plenty of things that I knew weren't really going to work out well. I just wanted to see with my own eyes. Just realize that turning it from a hobby to a business takes a lot of time and experience. Take it slower, read more, stick to a specific species, and get that dialed. Test different strains. Start small!!!

It sounds like you got a pretty cool thing going on. Good luck!

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Re: 40% straw, 25% rye, 25% wbs, 10% bran in bulk sub bag. good or bad idea? [Re: Dancing Cloud]
    #16053960 -

Thanks :smile:  I wasn't really thinking more nutritious would equal bigger better yeild.  I was just think more flavor and better nutritional value of the gourmets.  With wanting my target market to be higher end resturaunts, id really like to have the best quality product I can produce.  Reguardless of cost.  I'd rather spend a little more n profit a little less to provide a good product at a fair price. Reading around it sounds like that's true, but my recipie listed in title is just toooooo rich (taking it to far).  Im also reading that one drawback of a more nutritious substrate (even only suplemented at 5 or 10% level) is that it makes a wider range of food for a wider range of contaminates.  So although it can produce a better product if mixed in the correct ratios, it may be more difficult to achieve results so ill really have to keep on my toes as far as sterile technique.  I think im doing pretty good so far on my sterile procedures.  I feel that using that fog machine to aspirate triethylene glycol is helping, I just need to save up for a flow hood.  Hard at my income range.  I recently saved up and ordered agar from fungi perfiti, some tools, n some dishes.  I planned from day one on going that route with everything I've heard about LC.  Im just using the LC as a cheap way to experiment with at the moment. So far I've made up 50x 600cc LC jars.  All tested, not a single one contaminated yet.  Used 27 so far.

Ill get there, im young and very patient.  Time is on my side :smile:  I really appriciate the forums here.  Started reading in november.  Spent a bigillion hours reading till feburary, and have just been a bit busy lately with spring n garden preperations n stuff.  Trying to spawn enough blue oysters to mycoremediate 4.4 acres of lands a tough job :smile:  especially for a broke noob.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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