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Apprenticeship - advice needed
    #16020233 -

My employer is pushing me to accept a carpentry apprenticeship, they'll pay and i basically have nothing to lose. However, my situation doesn't follow a typical apprenticeship structure, and i have some qualms.

I basically do small scale reno's at present - primarily demolition, painting, drywall, and finishing trim, i also occassionally assist with installing vanities, countertops, tiling, sink installs, etc...

Right now we are strapping 3 warehouse ceilings to prep for drywall ... so working at height, off scaffolding, etc...

I am fairly unfamiliar with framing and forming (which first year apprenticeship focuses on,) and certainly not experienced. Rarely do i swing a hammer. :S

My boss is a journeyman carpenter and he really likes me - he wants to sponsor me and sign off on my "generalist" hours towards my carpentry apprenticeship even though i do not work directly with him (he works at a desk, me in field..) An apprentice is supposed to work directly under a journeyperson..

Basically, I have nothing to lose - I would get a $1000 grant just for completing the apprenticeship, I would get EI while in school, and my company would pay for school and books + i would be partially reimbursed for tools and get a raise when i was done. My boss essentially thinks i am worth more than the company is willing to pay me and wants to milk them to get me training and a higher wage...He's not even looking for a future commitment, he just feels like I deserve more than i'm getting, and wants to get me a ticket before i move on. It's a good situation to be in, he's looking after me.

The thing is, I would be waaay behind skills wise during the schooling. although i am sure i would learn TONS and become much more proficient at my job with the knowledge i gained...

I am confident i could pre-read and learn the academic aspects no problem - but when it comes to physically building a roof or a floor, i might struggle at first.. Since its an apprenticeship it's accelerated and very fast paced. I am sure i could pass with academics and effort alone ...

It's sort of hokey, and i'd feel bad abusing the system like this - but i really want to do it.

Any opinions in this would be very much appreciated.

(For the record, i am very happy with my job but it's not a career. I am actually pondering going into the sciences in a few years ... but am interested in carpentry, although not for the rest of my life. I probably wouldn't go past the first level or two.)


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: PDU]
    #16020422 -

bump


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: PDU]
    #16020441 -

I'd say do it if you are given the opportunity and have nothing to lose.

You say you'd like to go into sciences in a few years, which is cool. It's always nice to have a skill like this to fall back on if things don't work out. And having that piece of paper (plus real experience) saying you put your time into an apprenticeship means you'd have more of a financial cushion to fall back on should you need it.

Don't worry about falling behind. It's not rocket science. If you know the business end of a hammer from your asshole (unlike most folks), you should be alright.

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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: DNKYD]
    #16020489 -

Thats EXACTLY how I feel, so thanks for reaffirming that for me.

I would be interested to hear from people who have done apprenticeships and what their school and work experiences were like.

Although anyone with anything to add, please do.


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: PDU]
    #16020750 -

They want to give you training and more money? Take it for gods sake!

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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Lynnch]
    #16020881 -

You realize that by taking it I will be abusing the honest system the industry training authority has in place, and may be a burden to the teacher/class for which i will be apart of...?

Not to mention - it's people in situations such as mine who end up getting pushed through to red seal and being underqualified in the end, therefor lowering the standards associated with the title.

:S

I had an interview with a general contractor about a year ago. He said he doesn't care about red seal because it means nothing, just a piece of paper... It kinda errrrked me a bit, because it stands in such contrast to what they tell you through highschool and on the trade school websites.

Experience is king, still.


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: PDU]
    #16020980 -

Abusing it how? By not having the journeyman standing over your shoulder? Big deal. You learn, he's there to answer questions. He's still there to take responsibility for you. Thats the nice thing about construction, if it works it works, if it doesn't pass inspection, you redo it.  Or do you mean your behindness on skills? Dude, I can teach you how to hit a nail and use a speedsquare in a day. If the academics are easy, the skills are just a matter of time. Teachers are there to teach you, having to teach you is their job, not a burden.

Experience is king, Always. Always Always.
In this case you gain experience, plus they pay you more.

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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Lynnch]
    #16021106 -

Beautiful - I do agree, and so does my boss. Thanks for the straight up/no nonsense response.

I figure although most of the kids in my class will already be framing, there's gotta be other people in my situation, just looking to expand on their knowledge as generalists.

At the end of the day, i'm already making more than most of them anyways.

Here's to throwing caution to the wind'


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: PDU]
    #16021718 -

Bump?


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: PDU]
    #16023063 -

I am a master carpenter, over 50 years old.  I don't know anything about apprenticing, sounds like a union thing and I despise unions, even as a worker.  Carpentry is most certainly a career.  It is rewarding financially as well as affording a glorious sense of accomplishment.  It is likely to become even more financially rewarding in the years to come to those with the math.  Framing is math applied.  Your most valuable tool is your construction master calculator.  It is also kind of a physical beating that definitely will take a toll over the years.


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16023127 -

Dooo it and get that seal.

i just recently registered for a joinery apprenticeship, i cant wait to start.

joinery is basically finishing carpentry, cabinet, window, stair making, all kinds of stuff just not much framing work.

i hope to get in with an architectural company.  i would like some day to do high end architectural work.  My dad is also an awesome architect with many contacts and millworker friends whom i hopefully can network with.

im really excited to start :laugh:

Zappa: the apprenticeship im taking is basically set up and run by the latest industry professionals, feedback and demand etc. 

employers basically tell the school what skills they need and the schoold teaches you them and helps set you up with a job.

its not really union at all, its more like a way to connect apprentices with direct employer demand.

pretty cool IMO, no useless degree, your corriculum is designed by the demand feedback of the industry.

cant wait arg...


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Shins]
    #16023135 -

I never went to a school for carpentry.  I just did it.


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: PDU]
    #16023144 -

PDU said:
They'll pay and i basically have nothing to lose.

My boss is a journeyman carpenter and he really likes me

Basically, I have nothing to lose.

I am sure i would learn TONS and become much more proficient at my job with the knowledge i gained...

I am sure i could pass with academics and effort alone.

It's sort of hokey, but i really want to do it.

For the record, i am very happy with my job


Sometimes the only person who can give you the best advice is you.

:peace:

Dys

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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16023180 -

Thats also an option, and a totally do-able path one could take (obviously.)

an apprenticeship will accelerate your experience and wage potential greatly though unless youre lucky or exceptionally talented IMO.

theyll also teach you a wide variety of the latest skills.

i want to do high end stuff some day and i feel an apprenticship will get me there sooner.


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Shins]
    #16023191 -

What I'm reading is:

- Your boss likes you
- You have the opportunity to learn something new
- You would get a raise afterwards
- You would get a 1000$ grant
- Tools would be partially paid for you
- You would have something better to put on you resume
- You would become a more experienced worker

I don't see anything negative about this. You don't have the skills? That's the reason apprenticeship we're invented.

Go for it

And also, congrats


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Shins]
    #16023195 -

Shins said:
Thats also an option, and a totally do-able path one could take (obviously.)

an apprenticeship will accelerate your experience and wage potential greatly though unless youre lucky or exceptionally talented IMO.

theyll also teach you a wide variety of the latest skills.

i want to do high end stuff some day and i feel an apprenticship will get me there sooner.


Hey, go for it.  I just don't know anything about that path or anybody who ever took it.  I never looked for any credentials in a hiree.  I could tell in a few days, if not a few hours, what someone's skill level was.


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16023271 -

Haha zappa you sound like you make a reasonably good employer.

i cant tell you how annoyed i get at employers who are more concerned about credentials than productivity.

sure credentials usually indicate higher productivity, but bottom line credentials dont bring in profit as much as cold hard results do.

i cant stand working for employers who do not value productivity and results as #1 to a profitable business, and therefore bring down my potential wages and potential as an employee.

thats pretty much why i quit my job and enrolled.  tired of my old boss's bad decisions and inept sense of buisiness. 

sigh :p


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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Shins]
    #16023348 -

Out of 8 subcontractors I was voted "Least likely to succeed" in a $1,000 pool.

Won that shit.

Best grand I ever earned in my life because I worked hard as a motherf*cker for it.

Seeing someone's performance in a manual labor job is far greater than any resume or reference.


:datass:

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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Adden]
    #16023352 -

The only advice I can give you:


DO IT MOTHAFUCKA!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Apprenticeship - advice needed [Re: Shins]
    #16023559 -

I am very pleased to see a unanimously positive and lively discussion like this taking place!

I'll address each of you point by point:

zappaisgod said:
Carpentry is most certainly a career.  It is rewarding financially as well as affording a glorious sense of accomplishment...It is also kind of a physical beating that definitely will take a toll over the years.[/


While i understand that carpentry can be a career absolutely, I feel like i would be selling myself short by not going to university. If i get a degree and at that point decide to go back into trades, so be it. It is likely better paying until the higher levels of the sciences anyways.

At my job presently I am feeling pretty beat up, for no good reason - just lots of bending, crouching, kneeling and working overhead, and i look at my older coworkers who are pretty beat up - I know i want to feel good in my body now, and most importantly when i am older. :S

Which field of Carpentry do you work in now, Zappa?

Shins said:
i just recently registered for a joinery apprenticeship, i cant wait to start.

joinery is basically finishing carpentry, cabinet, window, stair making, all kinds of stuff just not much framing work.



I am much more interested in the finishing arts and cabinet making than in framing/forming although realize all skills are important on the route to becoming a master.

Around here, you need to be indentured by an employer BEFORE being accepted into an apprenticeship program.

Are you currently working Shins?

I've spoken with a few people about the joinery trade which have dissuaded me. Around here most of the shops are mostly east indian, wages are really low, it's hard to get in and very hard to work your way up (less turnover/demand than for builders so it turns into a waiting game.) You pretty much have to cut your teeth for a good few years building cheap malamine cabinets for cookie cutter houses before they'll let you use real wood...

I recently worked at high end custom furniture factory that had a fire, and the master joiner there basically said he's more likely to hire someone who wants to come get his hands dirty and is patient than someone with a ticket. He asked me my wage, i told him "17.50$/hr" and he said "if you want to stay there for the rest of your life, become a joiner." He also mentioned it would be 5+ years before a Jr. would be given any responsibility and 10-15 years before they would be at all proficient at furniture building and start getting a decent wage.

He was a chainsmoker and seemed sort of cynical and bitter towards life (his shop had just burned down..)

That said, i do see entry level positions in cabinet shops on craigslist all the time. I am certain depending on certain things, it is absolutely possible to niche out a spot in the market doing something highly skilled like high end desks or office/presentation furniture ... that said, i think alot of joiners without enough patience or drive get stuck mass producing shitty malamine boxes for costco and the like.

to be continued...


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