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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: koraks]
    #15869667 -

koraks said:
I don't think you really appreciate how deeply embedded the problems of the different African countries, ethnic groups and regions are in the local culture. If you did, then you would be much less likely to believe that sending peace-keeping/-making missions would help instead of further destabilizing the political situation in the long term.


Well its either we send some troops from preventing a few thousands deaths and maybe one or two genocides or we just look at them taking bets on who is gonna win.

Some African countries have proven over time that they cannot achieve stability by themselves.

One solution would be what Sudan did. Split themselves up. Then again, a new country born out of conflict will start solving their own new conflicts the same way they did before. The country declared their independence last year and we already read in the news that there is escalating tensions in there.

So are we gonna wait for other African countries to create a bunch of new States that are most likely going to be as violent as the previous united country? IMO That would just create massive segregation. Negotiations between countries would get super complicated. Plus I don't think segregation is a good solution at all.

One thing is for sure, there has to be a cease fire in many African countries so that actual talks can happen. A really long cease fire. 20 years. Just so a new generation can taste what its like not to be fired at. Unless somebody does something about it. I really doubt a long term cease fire will ever happen. Every time a new leader appears, a new rebel group gets formed.

Now I'm generalizing of course. Not every country needs the same solution. Some African countries are doing great on their own.

What would you do Koraks. How would you approach the situation?


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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Patlal]
    #15869698 -

Poor Boy said:
i could, but you all seem to know everything already so why dont you tell me?


:archiebunker: Now you're just being butthurt. That's fine by me.

Patlal said:
Some African countries have proven over time that they cannot achieve stability by themselves.


Does that mean that 'we' should intervene? How would you feel if the Muslims gathered an enormous military force in order to liberate our Western financial system of the horrible concept of interest and to bring a halt to all forms of blasphemy? It could be valid from the viewpoint of a Muslim, but would it respect the autonomy of Western countries? It wouldn't. What gives Western nations the right to violate the autonomy of African countries?

Quote:
What would you do Koraks. How would you approach the situation?


Offer help and practical advice to those parties that are willing to listen and that don't intend to break humanitarian laws. It's a long process, but in the end, it will work better than a cease-fire that is induced through external military force. Take the situation in Lybia for example. The country has been completely destabilized and a part of the population calls for democracy. However, nobody in Lybia has the knowledge or experience to actually run a democratic country. During and after the process of initial elections, the West should send advisers (ideally free of charge) to help the different parties set up democratic elections and a democratic government. Yes, advisers. Not soldiers. I know that's easier said than done and that it's going to be extremely expensive, but that is also true for sending a 'peace making mission'.

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: koraks]
    #15869742 -

nah. not butt hurt at all. i just know how shit goes around here.


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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: koraks]
    #15869771 -

koraks said:
Patlal said:
Some African countries have proven over time that they cannot achieve stability by themselves.


Does that mean that 'we' should intervene? How would you feel if the Muslims gathered an enormous military force in order to liberate our Western financial system of the horrible concept of interest and to bring a halt to all forms of blasphemy? It could be valid from the viewpoint of a Muslim, but would it respect the autonomy of Western countries? It wouldn't.


I'm talking political stability here, not financial systems. Also, try to avoid religion. that's another problem.

Sending humanitarian aid and peacekeeping armies are generally welcomed in these countries. Like I said, don't send an army to invade. Send an army to help them.

If the said country is a member of the UN, it qualifies for that kind of peacekeeping missions if needed. It's a safety net of some sort. Plus i'm sure the families in need are ''happy*'' to see the soldiers bringing them means to drink fresh water and preventing the rebels from driving through town and shooting everywhere. Most people, when given the option, will take the most help they can get in times of crisis.

* Happy might not be the best word, relieved maybe.


koraks said:
Patlal said:
Some African countries have proven over time that they cannot achieve stability by themselves.


What gives Western nations the right to violate the autonomy of African countries?


Violating a countries autonomy would be to declare war. We're talking peacekeeping and humanitarian aid.

The UN is international. Not just Western nations.

BUT if the Western nations actually wants to send extra personnel to help the UN like Canada has been doing so well over many years. I would shut up and take it hoping that other countries around the world do the same. It doesn't matter which flag is on your uniform, if you are here to help in time of crisis, you are welcomed.


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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Patlal]
    #15869830 -

Patlal said:
koraks said:
Patlal said:
Some African countries have proven over time that they cannot achieve stability by themselves.


Does that mean that 'we' should intervene? How would you feel if the Muslims gathered an enormous military force in order to liberate our Western financial system of the horrible concept of interest and to bring a halt to all forms of blasphemy? It could be valid from the viewpoint of a Muslim, but would it respect the autonomy of Western countries? It wouldn't.


I'm talking political stability here, not financial systems. Also, try to avoid religion. that's another problem.


They are all interlinked. You can't send troops to a country and then expect the population to say "it's alright, it's for political stability only; there is no religious or economic aspect to it." That sort of reasoning might be true to you, but it isn't true to a large part of the population in non-Western countries. Heck, it isn't even true for a fair number of people in Western countries.

Quote:
Sending humanitarian aid and peacekeeping armies are generally welcomed in these countries.


By some, yes. Let's take Lybia as an example again. Or Egypt. Both countries are currently in turmoil because some residents wanted their countries to be 'democratic' nations. Were those groups majorities in their respective countries? We don't know. We only know that the actual protesters (Egypt + Lybia) and rebels (Lybia) in both countries were a small minority. Still, in the West, we were just delighted to hear some people in those countries say what we wanted to hear ('bring us democracy!').

Quote:
If the said country is a member of the UN, it qualifies for that kind of peacekeeping missions if needed. It's a safety net of some sort. Plus i'm sure the families in need are ''happy*'' to see the soldiers bringing them means to drink fresh water and preventing the rebels from driving through town and shooting everywhere. Most people, when given the option, will take the most help they can get in times of crisis.

* Happy might not be the best word, relieved maybe.


You fail to recognize that rebels are part of the population. They came forth from families, and those who survive will form tomorrow's families. Plus, they represent the viewpoints of a part of the population. It's a crass simplification to divide a country into a government, families and rebels. They merge seamlessly into each other. It is this sort of simplifications that has caused huge problems in every single Western intervention in non-Western countries.


koraks said:
Patlal said:
Some African countries have proven over time that they cannot achieve stability by themselves.


What gives Western nations the right to violate the autonomy of African countries?


Violating a countries autonomy would be to declare war. We're talking peacekeeping and humanitarian aid.


Explain that to the farmer through whose rice field you've just plowed your tank in order to chase the 'rebels'.

Quote:
The UN is international. Not just Western nations.


Sure. The permanent members of the security council include not a single African nation. Even the two temporary African members aren't nations that are relevant in this thread. And yet, it's the security council that in the end decides if a major peacekeeping mission will be undertaken. With a huge influence of the US.

Quote:
BUT if the Western nations actually wants to send extra personnel to help the UN like Canada has been doing so well over many years. I would shut up and take it hoping that other countries around the world do the same. It doesn't matter which flag is on your uniform, if you are here to help in time of crisis, you are welcomed.


Thanks, but I'm sick and tired of seeing goddamn stupid Americans with their shock and awe tactics destroy the useful work that my countrymen have put in and given their lives for.

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: koraks]
    #15869872 -

You are getting ridiculously hard to discuss with.

Can't you see any positive aspect of humanitarian help?

You mentioned tanks... what tanks? I talking troops armed with food and medication.

Hate the Americans all you want, I don't care, I'm not for the US.

When I say 'the rebels' I mean the ones that are dressed up in fatigues with AK47s in their hands. The one that are still in the population that chose not to take arms are actually doing the right thing. They are voicing their discontent, not enforcing it


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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Patlal]
    #15869937 -

Patlal said:
You are getting ridiculously hard to discuss with.


That probably means that you need to think things through more thoroughly than if I had just nodded 'yes' to everything you have said, so I'll take it as a compliment.

Quote:
Can't you see any positive aspect of humanitarian help?


Your proposal was to send troops to keep a lid on violence. I don't think that solves the issue, and such missions during the past 20 years are a good illustration. I'm all for humanitarian help. I understand that you need to provide a safe working environment for those who do humanitarian work. I'm warning against oversimplification; against believing that bringing in a superior force to temporarily stabilize an area will automatically result in long-term stability. That isn't the case.

Quote:
You mentioned tanks... what tanks? I talking troops armed with food and medication.


:rolleyes: Ok buddy. No tanks. I think every civilian in an African country will respond to peacekeeping troops like the Savior has come. And what are you going to do after 5 years of (hopefully) 'stabilizing' the country and handing out food? What are you going to do to prevent those people from picking up their machetes again, like they have done in the decades and centuries before?

Quote:
Hate the Americans all you want, I don't care, I'm not for the US.


I know. I don't hate the Americans btw. I just think that when it comes to understanding the local dynamics of non-Western countries, they are complete retards. In general, if you send an American-led peacekeeping force to any non-Western region, they will temporarily keep a lid on violence by rolling their muscles, and when they pack up and leave, they turn out to have disrupted the local sociopolitical system to such an extent that the problem they came to solve has actually exacerbated.

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: koraks]
    #15869964 -

Let them hack each other with machetes, just give them cameras because i want to see. May the best man win.


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[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: koraks]
    #15869967 -

Well if you guys could keep a lid on your own shit, nobody would have to get involved.. Its not like we didnt help take out of power a man slaughtering millions of his OWN people in Iraq because theyre slightly different. Oh wait I forgot the qu'ran allows it, so it must be ok.


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"I don't give nothin' to nobody, I just pay the cost to do business." - Riley "Young Reezy"-Boondocks

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

"In the days of kings and queens I was a jester."

"And then the great lord created bears... too many bears... shoulda really dialed back on the bears." Squidbillies

"Can you start speaking words instead of your damn filthy lies!"- Louise "Bobs Burgers"

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Enjoywho] * 1
    #15870009 -

Enjoywho said:
Well if you guys could keep a lid on your own shit, nobody would have to get involved.. Its not like we didnt help take out of power a man slaughtering millions of his OWN people in Iraq because theyre slightly different.


Ah. And who supported Saddam in the 1960s-70s because he was perceived as a convenient ally against the USSR as well as a willing supplier of oil? There's no doubt that Saddam was a major war criminal and a domestic terrorist, but I don't see how you can advocate the American invasion in Iraq as a success, which you seem to be doing.

Quote:
Oh wait I forgot the qu'ran allows it, so it must be ok.


Now you're conveniently trying to use an argument against me that I made in another thread which deals with a completely different situation. An argument which you didn't even understand.

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Patlal]
    #15870292 -

Patlal said:
koraks said:
Patlal, you're trolling, right? God, I sure hope so.


At first I was.

Now I'm not sure.

Too many corrupt governments and rebel armies trying to overthrow these governments. It makes a lot of casualties already.

Sending peacekeeping armies and stablizing some countries would be great. Perhaps manage to kill a few idiot dictators would help too.

When I say sending armies, I don't mean declare war and blow everything up. No offensives. Just defenses, humanitarian aid and peacekeeping missions. Well, maybe a few offenses against overly violent rebels.


:trolldance:

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: koraks]
    #15871499 -

koraks said:
Visionary Tools said:
America has to send it's troops to america  because the powers that be are all pissy that China is there. That way America can be all "we got to stripsearch/execute without trial you because Chinese! Scary Al-Queda Chinese!" And Chinese can be all "We have to abort girl babies/execute you for organs because Americans! Scary Al-Queda Americans!"


:lolwut:



haha


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∞
I am incapable of conceiving infinity, and yet I do not accept finity.
- Simone de Beauvoir -

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: snoot]
    #15874384 -

When it comes to problems we could discuss many things besides America and Africa.

Shit son, we all got problems. Get over it.

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Pandora5a]
    #15875597 -

my dog pookie ate my thumb! now thats a problem.


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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Poor Boy]
    #15911053 -

I hate to bump this somewhat older thread but does this have anything to do with all the KONY 2012 stuff I've seen literally flooding the internet today?


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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: atayia]
    #15911149 -

They have been in Africa for atleast a month before this thread started. I don't know why though, the KONY stuff makes sense though.


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I eat mushrooms to meet hippie chicks.


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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: qbe]
    #15911174 -

qbe said:
They have been in Africa for atleast a month before this thread started. I don't know why though, the KONY stuff makes sense though.


just saw that vid yea it prob has to do with that..


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Don't do drugs because if you do drugs you'll go to prison,
and drugs are really expensive in prison.  ~John Hardwick
"put the phone on your butt its a booty call-andre nickatina

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: nebuli]
    #15911585 -

?

care to esplain?


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DAYS WITHOUT ALCOHOL:    I I I I

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Re: US Troops going to Africa [Re: Poor Boy]
    #15911685 -

Poor Boy said:
?

care to esplain?


Me...

A couple of my friends who I kept in contact with since I got out were sent over at the end of January.


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I eat mushrooms to meet hippie chicks.


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