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Offlineu4ic_fx
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Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 46
Loc: canada
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
first cultivation, and procedure comparison
    #1538154 - 05/11/03 12:50 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I will preface this by saying that i'm about to start my first batch (as soon as I get a syringe)

Some thoughts that have come to mind from reading the forums and teks:
I see alot of really neat and awesome ideas, yet I dont see any quantitative
measurements comparing them.for example, if you have a technique idea,
why not do it like a highschool experiment, and do a control as it were, granted
the conditions will never be as ... accurate as proper laboratory study.. but
hey its fun right?

btw thanks to all those who have taken the effort to write up their tek...
it is apreciated my thanks!

First thought, Mycelium need nutrients to grow (nutrients here to refered as nutes)
I was reading a dunking tek for PF cakes, synopsys : replace moisture used during
colonization. growth of a fungi body requires nutes, what happens if one uses a
soluable macro/micro nute fertilizer as part of re-hydration. the mycelium network gets
more food... more food is better no? i'm starting research ASAP on nutes required by
mycelium networks. if anyone has any information that they can forward please do so.

from basic botany i know that nitrogen is a big one... duh, but at what rates? methinks
there be need for some 'experimentation'

the proposal: to see if addition of nutes via dunking after cake colonization makes a difference

My first attemt : (ambitious but what the hell)
step 1 using the teks - colonize some jars (havnt decided if i'm gonna do BRF, or a grain)
step 2 dunk, one via tek with distilled sterile h2o and hydrogen peroxide, one with distilled sterile h2o + a micro/macro nute soluable fertilizer and the h-peroxide.
step 3, case cakes using vermiculite - no nutes
step 4 proceed via generic casing tek
step 5 if possible - re dunk between flushes using same rates
step 6 mmmmmm enjoy

with luck i'll have the digi cam, i'll photo it all, it seems like a fun idea...

oh, also i've read the microwave stuff, and i know that is a whole seperate kettle of
fish, but i think i'm gonna try some stuff with it, I know some gardeners use a m-wave
to sterilize soil... not as good as an autoclave... but hey noteverone has one, and i've
seen p-cookers become bombs... *kaboom*

Keep the dream alive.
u4ic


Edited by u4ic_fx (05/11/03 01:31 AM)


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Offlinefugu
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Registered: 01/06/03
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Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: u4ic_fx]
    #1538203 - 05/11/03 01:17 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

use small sentences if you want answers


--------------------
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Invisiblemicro
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Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: u4ic_fx]
    #1538220 - 05/11/03 01:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

"Some thoughts that have come to mind from reading the forums and teks
I see alot of really neat and awesome ideas, yet I dont see any quantitative measurements comparing them. for example, if you have a technique idea, why not do it like a highschool experiment, and do a control as it were, granted the conditions will never be as ... accurate as proper laboratory study.. but hey its fun right?"

I think you have the same mentality as me -- I work in a laboratory and would be glad to help in any experiment that is worthwhile, if I think it will accomplish something.  I can't buy expensive reagents, though, which really limits things :frown:

"First thought, Mycelium need nutrients to grow (nutrients here to refered as nutes)
I was reading a dunking tek for PF cakes, synopsys : replace moisture used during colonization. growth of a fungi body requires nutes, what happens if one uses a soluable macro/micro nute fertilizer as part of re-hydration. the mycelium network gets more food... more food is better no? i'm starting research ASAP on nutes required by mycelium networks. if anyone has any information that they can forward please do so."

I am against dunking right after birth of the cakes because if you keep it as a cake you can't tell if the inside of the cake is colonized completely (unless you break it apart to make a casing.)  The inside of the cake could then rot.  One of the mods on mycotopia.... no wait, I'm not going into that :wink:  It works well after each flush, though...

Also, the more nutrients the more risk of contamination.

"from basic botany i know that nitrogen is a big one... duh, but at what rates? methinks there be need for some 'experimentation'"

The C:N ratio should probably be around 10:1-20:1 from what I've read.  Around 17:1-20:1 if you are talking about a semi-sterile sort of specific medium, IMO.

"My first attemt : (ambitious but what the hell)
step 1 using the teks - colonize some jars (havnt decided if i'm gonna do BRF, or a grain)
step 2 dunk, one via tek with distilled sterile h2o and hydrogen peroxide, one with distilled sterile h2o + a micro/macro nute soluable fertilizer and the h-peroxide.
step 3, case cakes using vermiculite - no nutes
step 4 proceed via generic casing tek
step 5 if possible - re dunk between flushes using same rates
step 6 mmmmmm enjoy"

The same view on dunking.  If you are casing there is no need for a dunk.  The mycelium will pull water from the casing.  The addition of nutrients at this point can be benificial to fruiting but greatly increases the risk of contamination.

"with luck i'll have the digi cam, i'll photo it all, it seems like a fun idea... "

Believe me, it is, IMO.  Welcome to this insane crowd :wink:

"oh, also i've read the microwave stuff, and i know that is a whole seperate kettle of fish, but i think i'm gonna try some stuff with it, I know some gardeners use a m-wave to sterilize soil... not as good as an autoclave... but hey noteverone has one, and i've seen p-cookers become bombs... *kaboom*"

Yeah; don't open it up while it's pressurized and don't let it get jammed....  Be sure to read the directions.  It may sound like another step, but it is an important one, belive me.  Maybe the most....

Sorry -- I'm drunk and need to get off the computer, IMO

Have fun and keep it easy,

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Invisiblewoodrow
journeyman
Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 135
Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: u4ic_fx]
    #1538317 - 05/11/03 02:34 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It is hard to compare one tek with another because there are a lot of variables from one trial to the next. A method that works well one time may be a total failure the next and what works for one person may never work for another. It would take a lot of comparison trials before you could say whether one tek is better than another.

As for nuts, fruiting substrates are low in nitrogen because shrooms (and other fungi) require about one fourth as much nitrogen to grow as do bacteria. Keeping the N levels low gives the shrooms a selecrive advantage over the contams.



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OfflineChemicalPixi
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Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 49
Loc: West Coast
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: woodrow]
    #1538322 - 05/11/03 02:40 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If you're casing, how can you dunk? It's tiny tiny pieces now....?


--------------------
Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get locked in a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can...


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Invisiblemicro
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Posts: 7,532
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Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: ChemicalPixi]
    #1538831 - 05/11/03 12:34 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Why would you want to dunk if you're casing? The mycelium will pull water out of the casing.

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Offlineu4ic_fx
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Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 46
Loc: canada
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: micro]
    #1538924 - 05/11/03 01:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

" It would take a lot of comparison trials before you could say whether one tek is better than another.

As for nutes, fruiting substrates are low in nitrogen because shrooms (and other fungi) require about one fourth as much nitrogen to grow as do bacteria. Keeping the N levels low gives the shrooms a selecrive advantage over the contams." - woodrow

Granted, that idea was sort of.... out there and to be 100% accurate it would require clinical trial testing with thousands of samples to ensure a accurate reading, .. but we dont really need to be that accurate (yet)  besides, it gives me something fun to think about while i'm at work. 

As far as nutrients go,  if i understand your comment basically what you are saying is there is a fine window in which the shrooms will perform best w/o risk of other contams? ie up the nutes, and the shrooms will do better? but at higher risk to contamination?


"Why would you want to dunk if you're casing? The mycelium will pull water out of the casing." -micro

my thought was that by dunking, or partial saturation... that would add the moisture to the substrate directly, rather than relying on the mycelium network to pull it directly from the casing medium. ie less work for the mycelium network to focus on moisture transport and more for it to produce fruiting bodies... 

again please keep in mind i'm just blowing out the ideas that come to mind, please take no offense if they seem ... redundant/silly/pointless its just the mad ramblings of yet one more mycophile :wink:



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Invisiblemicro
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Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: u4ic_fx]
    #1539727 - 05/11/03 09:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Granted, that idea was sort of.... out there and to be 100% accurate it would require clinical trial testing with thousands of samples to ensure a accurate reading, .. but we dont really need to be that accurate (yet) besides, it gives me something fun to think about while i'm at work.

As far as nutrients go, if i understand your comment basically what you are saying is there is a fine window in which the shrooms will perform best w/o risk of other contams? ie up the nutes, and the shrooms will do better? but at higher risk to contamination?


This is from The Fungi , second edition, by Carlile, Watkinson + Gooday, (c) 2001, Academin Press:

Carbon/nitrogen (C/N) ratio

Proteins contain about 15% nitrogen. Although nitrogen is also needed for the synthesis of other cell components, such as nucleic acids and chitin, carbon is required as an energy source. A balanced medium will hence contain about ten times as much carbon as nitrogen. Hence carbon:nitrogen ratios of 10:1 or less will ensure a high protein content and a C/N ratio greatly in excess of this figure (e.g. 50:1) will favour accumulation of alcohol, acetate-derived secondary metabolites, lipids or extracellular polysaccharides. Attention to C/N ratio is hence essential in fermentation technology.

________________

The nitrogen content is a major factor for contamination, especially in bulk substrates where you are pastuerizing (not sterilizing) the substrate and spawning it with mycelium in a semi-sterile enviornment. This is why the C/N ratio in bulk substrates is higher -- Paul Stamets reccomends 17:1 in the Mushroom Cultivator .

my thought was that by dunking, or partial saturation... that would add the moisture to the substrate directly, rather than relying on the mycelium network to pull it directly from the casing medium. ie less work for the mycelium network to focus on moisture transport and more for it to produce fruiting bodies...

IMO, you want the mycelium to colonize the casing layer to make it less likely to contaminate -- a dunk will probably just slow that down, but I have never tried it. You shouldn't have problems with lack of water if you add enough casing and keep ambient humidity ~70% and mist once a day (except when it's pinning.)

again please keep in mind i'm just blowing out the ideas that come to mind, please take no offense if they seem ... redundant/silly/pointless its just the mad ramblings of yet one more mycophile

Intellectual curiosity is a good thing, IMO.

Good luck!

--
Micro



--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Offlineu4ic_fx
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Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 46
Loc: canada
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: micro]
    #1539981 - 05/11/03 11:22 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

thanks micro for the 411 re C:N ratio

I apreciate all the positive support i've received. to all those who've had negative things to say, those coments are sent to /dev/null :smile:

peace,
tomorrow i go shopping.. (i might break down and buy a 4liter PC for 36$ but i'm gonna try the M-wave first!)

u4 


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: first cultivation, and procedure comparison [Re: u4ic_fx]
    #1540044 - 05/11/03 11:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

n/p -- good luck!

--
Micro


--------------------
Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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