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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: repoman]
    #15292050 -

I love threads like this.

:rockon:


--------------------
Of course, then there's the problem of eating vermiculite. On the bright side, it makes your poop and teeth glitter.  Just pretend it's christmas.
-RR

Those mushrooms are fine.  Your friend is a pussy.
-RR

Outdoor Patch

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: repoman]
    #15295607 -

Dry substrate is not a filter. A filter is something like polyfil, tvek mycropore tape or felt disks.

What you meant to say is you use dry verm correct? That would not make a filter for the contam risks. It's just a contam barrier to catch what is can and avoid growing in the substrate with the mushroom mycilium.

You want to get filter gas exchange or do you want a contam barrier? Both are awesome for PF tek. But not to be confused as a filter.

This is a filter:
(Felt disk, also called synthetic filter disk)

(A little make shift filter disk with healable inoculant port.)


And substrates are meant to keep humidity up as a casing layer, or to be colonized for bulk. Not to filter. Don't mind me just educating :P

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Icesyn]
    #15296982 -

oh no i don't mind.  i can use any help i can get.  thanks alot!!


--------------------
mycology student and researcher for alternative medicine at black river university.

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Icesyn]
    #15297326 -

Icesyn said:
Dry substrate is not a filter. A filter is something like polyfil, tvek mycropore tape or felt disks.

What you meant to say is you use dry verm correct? That would not make a filter for the contam risks. It's just a contam barrier to catch what is can and avoid growing in the substrate with the mushroom mycilium.

You want to get filter gas exchange or do you want a contam barrier? Both are awesome for PF tek. But not to be confused as a filter...

And substrates are meant to keep humidity up as a casing layer, or to be colonized for bulk. Not to filter. Don't mind me just educating :P


Hmm I think this is completely false unless you have some sources.

Quote:
It's very common for mycelium to grow into the verm filter, especially if you incorrectly left the foil on top after inoculation.
RR


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13118362#13118362

Quote:
I prefer finer verm, as long as it's not too fine, which will tend to pack down.  It's especially better for the dry verm filter on top.
RR


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11130377#11130377

Also.

Quote:
bar·ri·er/ˈbarēər/
Noun:
A fence or other obstacle that prevents movement or access.


Quote:
fil·ter/ˈfiltər/
Noun:
A porous device for removing impurities or solid particles from a liquid or gas passed through it.


I'd say a layer of dry vermiculite is pretty darn porous as well as being used to remove impurities from the gas passed through it. Tyvek and polyfil are great but it seems to me that dry verm is indeed used for the exact same purpose: as a filter.

You said:
Quote:
...It's just a contam barrier to catch what is can and avoid growing in the substrate with the mushroom mycilium...


To the best of my sentence interpreting abilities what you mean is "Dry vermiculite is a contamination barrier, the purpose of which is to catch contaminants in order to prevent aforementioned contaminants from growing in the substrate along with the mushroom mycelium. How then would you say the purpose of a filter differs from your own definition of a barrier?

Also:
Quote:
...And substrates are meant to keep humidity up as a casing layer, or to be colonized for bulk. Not to filter. Don't mind me just educating :P...


Right, substrate is used for moisture content and nutrition. However, just because it is vermiculite does not mean it is a substrate. Vermiculite is used for many, many things other than substrate. One of these other things it's used for is as a filter atop PF jar substrate.

I apologize if I'm missing something :shrug:


--------------------
☆Rice Bran Meal + Heatshock Tek Cube Grow
☆Enoki + Lion's Mane Sawdust Block Grow

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: OnePerEyeM8]
    #15298584 -

Umm. Ouch. :bitchsmack:

The way I see it, verm acts like a net. I highley doubt it will stop things like smoke and viruses from getting in. And yeah, verm can be colonized. Because of this I have lost a few cakes. I never leave the foil on the jars because I also used micropore tape.

Experience is my source. And one single RR contradiction doesn't mean I'm wrong.

You can't stop a fly with a chain link fence.

This is why I don't think verm is a filter, but more of a net to catch things.


Not saying to not use a verm layer. Even I do when I use PF tek. But I will stick to my guns and point out, it's called a contam barrier for a reason and not a filter.

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Icesyn]
    #15298761 -

The vermiculite itself wouldn't really be a filter unless the air actually moves through it, but the vermiculite layer as a whole seems to fit the definition of both a filter and contamination barrier.


--------------------

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Kizzle]
    #15300660 -

As far as I know, verm isn't fine enough to work well. Please show some prof? I'd love to learn?

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Kizzle]
    #15300903 -

okay so for my next batch..  what's the ratio of verm to brf to water?  i know i know, follow the pf tek.  but what should i use? from any of your experiences.  please, i can use any tips. 

sterilize for about an hour and a half, then just let them sit in the dark?

and put a layer of dry verm on top, right?

and i have no lids or fancy medical tape.  so will tin foil work?

please guys, any help i will take. 

-c

give me any tips you can spare. 

i appreciate the pointers.


--------------------
mycology student and researcher for alternative medicine at black river university.

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: repoman]
    #15301390 -

repoman said:
okay so for my next batch..  what's the ratio of verm to brf to water?  i know i know, follow the pf tek.  but what should i use?

give me any tips you can spare. 

i appreciate the pointers.


ratio of verm:brf:water? you should use what the pf tek says to use. you said you know to follow the pf tek, but ask anyway?
tips?
research ALOT. like hours and hours per day for a few weeks.
stick to proven methods before experimenting.
use the search function before asking silly questions that 100 people have asked before.


--------------------
please do not take everything i say here so personally. welcome to teh internets!

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Icesyn]
    #15301615 -

Icesyn said:
As far as I know, verm isn't fine enough to work well. Please show some prof? I'd love to learn?


You mean to work as a filter? I think you can find lots of grows where people use no tape at all. I was doing it all the time until I had some bugs make their way into one of my jars.

From my experience repoman, just follow the tek :grin:
People have used foil instead of lids so it would probably work but I can't say I've tried it. Be sure you have the dry layer on before you sterilize so that gets sterilized too, and have to make sure that layer doesn't get wet at any time and that no brf is in the dry verm layer or the sides of the "jar" surrounding that layer.


--------------------

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Kizzle]
    #15302116 -

Quote:
Icesyn said:
The way I see it, verm acts like a net. I highley doubt it will stop things like smoke and viruses from getting in. And yeah, verm can be colonized. Because of this I have lost a few cakes. I never leave the foil on the jars because I also used micropore tape.

Experience is my source. And one single RR contradiction doesn't mean I'm wrong.

You can't stop a fly with a chain link fence.

This is why I don't think verm is a filter, but more of a net to catch things.


Smoke does not cause contamination or hinder the growth of mycelium. A quick search will turn up many posts to support that the presence of cigarette or cannabis smoke has no effect on colonization. Smoke can, however, carry preexisting contaminants into or out of something, but only if the pore size of the filter material was big enough to allow said contaminants to pass through in the first place.

I never said verm couldn't be colonized. Unless you're referring to someone else's post.

About micropore tape: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13643478#13643478
Have a look at that and notice that a cubensis spore is MANY times larger than a virus particle and a good amount larger than a bacteria particle. This is going off of Figure 177 from the text book page you showed (really interesting, thanks for sharing!). The opening in the micropore tape is much larger than a cube spore.

Relating to your first post, here is a link to some polypropylene pore sizes. This is the material that many synthetic filter discs are made from.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/labware/labware-products.html?TablePage=20442122
That's a ways away from preventing the passage of bacteria according to your textbook.

Again relating to your first post, here's a link with some information on the pore size of medical grade tyvek.
http://www2.dupont.com/Medical_Packaging/en_US/assets/downloads/DMP903_Tech_Services_Manual_rd01.pdf
The pore size here is many times larger than even that of polypropylene.

By the way, micrometre = micron = µm.


Experience is a wonderful source, but its credibility depends on the individual. Are you an expert in the field of mycology or etymology? For example, if you stated "Dry substrate is not a filter," in a research paper and cited no source, relying solely on experience, then that which you are treating as a fact is really just an unsubstantiated claim. The exception to this is if you do actually happen to be an expert and/or professional in a relevant field.

Also, I gave two RR contradictions, not one. Though in the majority of instances, one RR contradiction is enough to prove someone wrong. I can provide many more instances of RR using the phrase "dry verm filter" if you wish, or you could search for them yourself if you have any doubt.

Quote:
Icesyn said:
This is why I don't think verm is a filter, but more of a net to catch things.



Again, what is a filter if not "a net to catch things?"
Quote:
Icesyn said:
But I will stick to my guns and point out, it's called a contam barrier for a reason and not a filter.



What is the reason? You still haven't provided an answer for this.

Kizzle said:
The vermiculite itself wouldn't really be a filter unless the air actually moves through it, but the vermiculite layer as a whole seems to fit the definition of both a filter and contamination barrier.


I find it hard to believe that CO2 is unable to pass through the dry verm layer, if that's what you're saying. Otherwise it would be considered airtight.

What I don't understand about your (Icesyn's and Kizzle's, I guess) posts is the perceived intrinsic difference in the phrases "contamination barrier" and "contamination filter." It seems to me that these two phrases are used interchangeably everywhere I've seen them. What is the difference between a contamination barrier and a contamination filter?

Sorry if I come off like a dick, I truly don't mean to. I just want to get to the bottom of this!  :cookiemonster:


--------------------
☆Rice Bran Meal + Heatshock Tek Cube Grow
☆Enoki + Lion's Mane Sawdust Block Grow

Edited by OnePerEyeM8 (10/31/11 12:36 AM)

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: OnePerEyeM8]
    #15302464 -

What I mean is I'm not sure whether or not air can pass through a solid chunk of vermiculite, it probably can considering how it's manufactured and it's porous nature but I don't know. But regardless of how it actually works, even if the air is actually moving around the chunks and not through them, the vermiculite layer as a whole allows gas exchange without allowing the larger particles through, making it a filter. It keeps contaminants from passing through, making it a contamination barrier. The two terms practically mean the same thing in this case.


--------------------

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Kizzle]
    #15302495 -

Phew, I see what you're saying now. I didn't realize when you first said vermiculite that you were referring to the properties of the material itself and not an amount of it.

That all makes sense, thanks a lot for the elaboration and sorry I didn't catch that the first time :thumbup:


--------------------
☆Rice Bran Meal + Heatshock Tek Cube Grow
☆Enoki + Lion's Mane Sawdust Block Grow

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Icesyn]
    #15302667 -

Icesyn said:
Dry substrate is not a filter. A filter is something like polyfil, tvek mycropore tape or felt disks.




I just can't let that one go unchallenged.  A filter is anything which allows desired items to pass, while stopping undesired ones.  Therefore, the dry verm layer is a filter.

Quote:
Icesyn said:

This is why I don't think verm is a filter, but more of a net to catch things.



That's like saying a four wheeled product with doors, an engine, transmission and seats etc., is not an automobile, but rather a car.

By definition, a net is a filter.  If it's a fishing net, it allows the water to pass while 'filtering' the fish.  You seem to be arguing semantics without the linguistic background to pull it off.
RR

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15302682 -

:megusta:


--------------------
☆Rice Bran Meal + Heatshock Tek Cube Grow
☆Enoki + Lion's Mane Sawdust Block Grow

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: OnePerEyeM8]
    #15302796 -

^ LOL, Me Gusta!

When I was a noob (and still am for that matter) I went straight to the WBS tek, and after some failures and successes decided the least pain in the ass substrate I had access to was coir with lime added.  Always had good yields, and only got contaminants after the 2nd or 3rd yield. 

I think I tried BRF cakes one time years ago and only got like 4 -5 mushrooms off each cake.  I tried poo for a while, but sometimes fresher poo bits would be in the older poo bits and it would fuck up my whole everything.  Straw was a whore to cut up/clip up and my hands would feel like crap till I started using a wheed whacker in a 5 foot piece of 3 foot wide industrial piping, stirring up the flour till it was a shaggy soft curly thin mess.  Myc loved to rip right through that like nobodies business.  Especially if I used the golden small bails from craft shops, but the pasteurization was a pain in the ass. 

The simplest tried and true method Ive found was WBS. after skipping the simmering step, and just soaking for 19-27 hours, and straining. Throwing it in a wide mouth quart jar, pressure cooking, Grain to Grain transfering a few generations, innoculating to Coir I threw in a bucket and dumped water Id boiled for an hour into, covering it up, letting it cool down, and then tossing it into containers and mixing up colonized WBS into.

Then I just threw my -patties- into a martha.

I dont know if thats the best method, but Ive always had good results, the results got better once I started using lime. Plus I can soak the bad boys and refruit them a few times.

A few times they went green, I got experimental and started trying to salvage moldy patties.  Id soak them in a cold 8 percent bleach solution for 14 hours, cut off the green areas, and then heavily apply ordinary table salt and refruit them in a seperate chamber in a different room.  Id sometimes be able to refruit them a few times before they totally went green with no ill affects from consumption.

But thats just me, any of the regulars can attest to the issues Id had in my endeavors.

Coir is like 8$ for enough bricks for 5 or 6 buckets at your local pet store, a bucket is 3.00$ at your local le home depot.

Edited by spookypooky (10/31/11 07:21 AM)

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15303630 -

I meant catch things like dust but not things like viruses and such. Thanks for the contradiction RR. That's when you know you fucked up lol.

I said my opinionated hypothesis and not facts. If you want to prove me wrong then support facts. I don't know whats so hard to understand about that. Most of this hobby is opinion supported my minor facts. Unless I had a whole lab and necessary equipment, I can't prove you shit. So don't shut someone down for stating an educated opinion. How about you give me one so we all learn?

Thank you. :waits:

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: Icesyn]
    #15304295 -

Icesyn said:
I meant catch things like dust but not things like viruses and such. Thanks for the contradiction RR. That's when you know you fucked up lol.

I said my opinionated hypothesis and not facts. If you want to prove me wrong then support facts. I don't know whats so hard to understand about that. Most of this hobby is opinion supported my minor facts. Unless I had a whole lab and necessary equipment, I can't prove you shit. So don't shut someone down for stating an educated opinion. How about you give me one so we all learn?

Thank you. :waits:


No where in this thread have you stated the information you were presenting was an "opinionated hypothesis" and not facts. In fact (aha) it seemed to be the opposite.

I supported myself with many facts, including dictionary definitions and microscopic imagery. Did you read my post? :frown: 

Quote:
Don't mind me just educating :P


Honestly that little bit at the end of your first post is the only reason I replied. I know you mean well but spreading false information is not educating.

If someone just starting out were to find this thread and read a post saying "dry vermiculite is not a filter," then they'll be at the least confused (I know I was), and at the worst may end up screwing up their grow.

Here's an opinion of mine since you asked:
Most mainstream music is garbage, but Maroon 5 is awesome.

And here is a fact:
A dry vermiculite layer is a filter.

:shrug:


Anyway, sorry for the thread jack. :jacked:

Edited by OnePerEyeM8 (10/31/11 03:19 PM)

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: repoman]
    #15304595 -

i know it's all a bit daunting to start with and even after I'd searched fora couple of weeks, i found a few bits that contradicted themselves and freaked me out...

this, along with RR's videos are the best PF tek's I've seen so far, in terms of covering most bases and putting the mind to rest

EvilMushrooms take on PF tek

also, I used tumblers (jars not easy to get here) and wrapped tin foil on top (double layer for 'lid' with innoc holes in, and single layer on top when PCing to stop water getting in) and they seem to work pretty good. make sure you're well sterile and you should be laughing and seeing wondrous things in a month or so

:awedance:
best of luck and get some pics of your oatmeal setup :smile:


--------------------
Check out my Psilocybe Cyanofriscosa (Allenii) TEK


Top fungi-knowlodgy with THE TRIBE!
THE TRIBE

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Re: 1st time. growing using oatmeal and chopped up cardboard HELP!!!! [Re: repoman]
    #15315387 -

well guys and gals.  i just got my HUGE bag of verm and little bag of brf in the mail.  i followed the pf tek to a tee.  and they are now in the pressure cooker.  sterilizing.  in about an hour, i will turn it off.  let them cool and then knock them up. 

one question, can i cool them off in the fridge/freezer?  i have a no frost freezer.  or should i just wait it out?

i'm very excited now.  i'm trying 3 jars to start out with.


--------------------
mycology student and researcher for alternative medicine at black river university.

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