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Black boys score far behind white students
    #13461028 -

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40095887/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times

There's obviously many reasons for this, since blacks didn't go to real school pre-1955, but maybe it is a racial-biological thing.  It seems so hard to accept that a certain race of people may be better equipped to handle academics.  Maybe blacks overall are less intelligent and have lower IQ's than other races.

We don't seem to have a problem accepting that blacks are better athlete's overall than whites, although that has a lot of factors too, including selective breeding during slavery.


--------------------
Mushrooms | LSD | Salvia | JWH-018 | AM-2201 |  4-AcO-DMT | 2C-E | 2C-I | 5-MeO-DMTs | 5-MeO-DALT | 5-MeO-MIPT | 25C-NBOMe | MDPV | Methylone | Mephedrone | Nitrous Oxide | Alcohol | DXM | Methoxetamine |  4-MeO-PCP | Xanax | Valium | Phenazepam |  Ambien | Lunesta

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13461041 -

Fact is people do not understand science, don't understand what an observational study can determine, and most of all do not understand the third variable problem and various confounding factors that manifest in these types of studies when you try to do anything but note correlation.

No, it isn't hard to imagine that various races are more or less intelligent.  It is hard to imagine that these sorts of studies show that, however.

So far as I've seen, the null hypothesis that race does not have an effect on reasoning or intelligence seems to be the most prudent outlook.  If your going to invest in an idea- the idea that people are created equal is about the best one based on the evidence I've seen.


These types of studies are only useful in showing the relative preformance of various populations, it has no particular relevance to the effects of race. Even if they did, I don't know why anyone would care.  It seems a worthless statistic for public policy purposes.

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: CycleThoughts] * 1
    #13461058 -

The only problem with that is that race isn't really biological. As in it doesn't have a biological basis.

If a sizable percentage of young black males think the only way out of the hood is with a basketball, you are gonna find a lot of good black ball players. There was actually a time in American history that Jews were considered athletic and good at ball.  Many of the things we take for granted are socially constructed. That doesn't make them less real.

If a sizable percentage of young black males are discouraged by their peers from being focused on academics, more so than young withe males...  etc. etc.

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: johnm214]
    #13461068 -

Let me go out on a limb and assume that you're white, Mr. O.P.

How do you think you would have done on these tests?  You obviously haven't the slightest clue how to use an apostrophe.  Why is it that you're a little slower than others?  Is it because your parents are of inferior stock?

Edited by Me_Roy (11/09/10 09:36 PM)

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13461075 -

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/correlation?&qsrc=
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/causation?&qsrc=

Correlation is never Causation

I'm willing to bet this can be explained anthropologically

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13461099 -

Chris Rock explains this shit.



--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: SlashOZ]
    #13461196 -

One minute in and its full of crap:]

a) blacks did have rights during slavery cognizable under the United States law.  At the moment, in fact, I can't think of any right they didn't have.  Name one.

b) the classification of individuals necessary to reach the conclusion that slavery is effecting blacks today is both arbitrary and unconstitutional, regardless of its merit in the abstract.

c) such classification and benefits premised thereupon similarly lack logical foundation.  Why should the sins or good deads of the forefather bind the son?  Why is this class worthy of dispartate treatment above others?  Why is the black and white classification, or black and non-black, especially deserving relative to other classes?

The whole notion of his talk is bullshit.  Its comedy

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: Oohway]
    #13461204 -

Quote:
Correlation is never Causation




Betcha didn't know that, OP.

Oh well, no use trying.  Lie back and accept your fate.

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: johnm214]
    #13461213 -

johnm214 said:
One minute in and its full of crap:]

a) blacks did have rights during slavery cognizable under the United States law.  At the moment, in fact, I can't think of any right they didn't have.  Name one.

b) the classification of individuals necessary to reach the conclusion that slavery is effecting blacks today is both arbitrary and unconstitutional, regardless of its merit in the abstract.

c) such classification and benefits premised thereupon similarly lack logical foundation.  Why should the sins or good deads of the forefather bind the son?  Why is this class worthy of dispartate treatment above others?  Why is the black and white classification, or black and non-black, especially deserving relative to other classes?

The whole notion of his talk is bullshit.  Its comedy


Facts in that video about slaves are...

1. Blacks were selectively bred to be strong, not smart.

2. If you could read you were killed

If you don't think these things affect black people now then you are refusing to believe in the truth.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: SlashOZ]
    #13461232 -

straw man.

Where did I assert this or anything remotely close to it?


What does it matter even if this is true?  Who cares?

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: johnm214]
    #13461280 -

johnm214 said:
straw man.

Where did I assert this or anything remotely close to it?


What does it matter even if this is true?  Who cares?


Straw man? Where did I try to put words in your mouth. By pointing out your obvious lack of understanding I am not making a straw man.

Once again, the video contains two important facts.

1. Slaves were bred to be physically gifted, not smart.

2. Smart slaves were killed.

Go do some reading on evolution and perhaps dog breeding as well to gain some much needed insight on how traits are passed down...

Thought experiment: If you remove all specimens with the trait of being intelligent while breeding the ones that are big, tall, and strong what do you think will happen? Do you think smart specimens will become the norm or will physically gifted specimens become the norm? *reminder* This is not rocket science so you should be able to easily figure out why black people score lower on tests but do well in athletics.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: SlashOZ] * 1
    #13461305 -

It looks like you are making alot of assumptions here.

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13461383 -

Me_Roy said:
Let me go out on a limb and assume that you're white, Mr. O.P.

How do you think you would have done on these tests?  You obviously haven't the slightest clue how to use an apostrophe.  Why is it that you're a little slower than others?  Is it because your parents are of inferior stock?


Probably.  Or maybe it's because I'm poor.  Or maybe it's because you said I'm white.  It's probably a combination of all of them.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx

Who should I believe,  you or A 60-page review of the scientific evidence, some based on state-of-the-art magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of brain size?



--------------------
Mushrooms | LSD | Salvia | JWH-018 | AM-2201 |  4-AcO-DMT | 2C-E | 2C-I | 5-MeO-DMTs | 5-MeO-DALT | 5-MeO-MIPT | 25C-NBOMe | MDPV | Methylone | Mephedrone | Nitrous Oxide | Alcohol | DXM | Methoxetamine |  4-MeO-PCP | Xanax | Valium | Phenazepam |  Ambien | Lunesta

Edited by CycleThoughts (11/09/10 10:51 PM)

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13461425 -

Even if a specific race were statistically smarter than another, good luck publishing your results in today's political climate.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13461467 -

Me_Roy said:
Let me go out on a limb and assume that you're white, Mr. O.P.

How do you think you would have done on these tests?  You obviously haven't the slightest clue how to use an apostrophe.  Why is it that you're a little slower than others?  Is it because your parents are of inferior stock?


I have a friend who is black, female and Jewish.  Is that more your speed?  HACK


--------------------
Mushrooms | LSD | Salvia | JWH-018 | AM-2201 |  4-AcO-DMT | 2C-E | 2C-I | 5-MeO-DMTs | 5-MeO-DALT | 5-MeO-MIPT | 25C-NBOMe | MDPV | Methylone | Mephedrone | Nitrous Oxide | Alcohol | DXM | Methoxetamine |  4-MeO-PCP | Xanax | Valium | Phenazepam |  Ambien | Lunesta

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: SlashOZ]
    #13461599 -

At the outset I think it is neat that the consequences of your argument, indeed one of its very premises, is that blacks are inferior and genetically unfit relative to others.

Despite your apologetics and politically correct position on the desirability of assistance, you actually adopt Nazi ratial theories, et cet.

Quite an incongruous combination of arguments.

(on the other hand I argue the null hypothesis and go farther and suggest it is most likely that the fitness of blacks and non blacks aren't significantly different and have no relevant effect on the populations- especially so in the case of complex traits like intelligence and physical fitness).


SlashOZ said:
johnm214 said:
straw man.

Where did I assert this or anything remotely close to it?
What does it matter even if this is true?  Who cares?


Straw man? Where did I try to put words in your mouth


Here:

>If you don't think these things affect black people now then you are refusing to believe in the truth.

I did not assert an opinion as to these facts' veracity or relevance at all.  Moreover, you suggest that I may not believe such facts without showing how that is a consequence of my argument and then procede to attack said position by declaring it indicative of my refusal to believe the truth. 

This is textbook strawman.

Quote:
By pointing out your obvious lack of understanding I am not making a straw man.


This is another strawman, lol

I have not asserted that you are making a strawman argument by pointing out my obvious lack of understanding, so your attack of this premise is a straw man argument since you've not independently established it as a consequence of my argument.


Quote:
Once again, the video contains two important facts.

1. Slaves were bred to be physically gifted, not smart.

2. Smart slaves were killed.

Go do some reading on evolution and perhaps dog breeding as well to gain some much needed insight on how traits are passed down...


Why do you presume I lack adequate understanding of evolution and its mechanisms?  Such is an ad hominem in any case, but even when engaged on the merits it fails as you fail to substantiate this conslusion.  In the past, those who've alleged such have almost universely possessed an inferior misunderstanding  of these theories- I suspect this will be the case here.  It gets tiring.



The rest of this posts deals with your suggestion of various eugenics practices.  It doesn't have much relevance to the initial post, but is provided because I disagree with your suggestions:

Quote:
Thought experiment: If you remove all specimens with the trait of being intelligent while breeding the ones that are big, tall, and strong what do you think will happen?


It is worth noting that I dispute this occured to an evolutionarily-signifigant extent or that such would be useful.  If breading for performance, I don't know why you'd rely on these phenotypical traits when your trait of interest is capability to do work profitably.  Eugenics as historically practiced seldom had much scientific basis- it didn't even make sense usually.

Further, I doubt such a scheme could be implemented.  The means of identifying and preventing unwanted propogation and breeding and selecting and facilitating desired traits and breeding pairs seems completely incompatible to the manner in which slavery was practiced in the Americas. 


Quote:
Do you think smart specimens will become the norm or will physically gifted specimens become the norm?


I would object to the extent you use conclusory and general language here.  Selecting for intelligence is difficult, and selecting for physical strength is also difficult.  Selection of various phenotypes could be undertaken with the goal of reaching certain ends, but this is quite difficult with complex traits and complex organisms, such as relevant here.  Even if the prctice was properly established and relevant generations subjected to such controls, the liklihood of success is very much in doubt.

Don't confuse the trait selected for with the ends to which it is selected.  Just because you select tall or bulky phenotypes with an end to propogating complex traits of physical fitness, doesn't mean this is what will result.  Most likely, you'll end up with inbred lanky and heavy individuals unsuitable for work and suffering from deletrious traits that make their suitability far worse than the initial population.

*reminder* This is not rocket science so you should be able to easily figure out why black people score lower on tests but do well in athletics.


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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: johnm214]
    #13461825 -

Listen, O.P, if it makes you feel better about yourself to assume that you're smarter (or genetically predisposed to greater intelligence) than dark-skinned people, go right ahead. 

I'm not going to put forth the effort to find another study that contradicts that which you cite, nor am I even going to read the three dissenting commentaries published with that same one. Why not?  Because you're just marshaling whatever you can find to bolster your misinterpretation of that NYT article. 

Congrats on your black/Jewish/lesbian friend -- that's a good one for the resumé.  Does she suffer from low IQ and brain weight, or is she a rare exception?  Do you have long conversations about your inherent superiority? No, I'd bet you keep mum on this topic when she's around.

I don't think intelligence is reducible to brain weight.  It's nothing so simple as eye or hair color.

Edited by Me_Roy (11/10/10 12:39 AM)

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: Me_Roy]
    #13461915 -

Me_Roy said:
Listen, O.P, if it makes you feel better about yourself to assume that you're smarter (or genetically predisposed to greater intelligence) than dark-skinned people, go right ahead. 


How is this argument relevant to that which you say you are responding to?

Where did he say it made him feel better?  Where did he say he was assuming anything?

This seems a patent ad hominem

Quote:
I'm not going to put forth the effort to find another study that contradicts that which you cite, nor am I even going to read the three dissenting commentaries published with that same one. Why not?  Because you're just marshaling whatever you can find to bolster your misinterpretation of that NYT article. 



Again, what does this have to do with anything?  Arguendo, it doesn't seem to affect his arguments merits to grant your premises' validity. 

If your not going to find a source supporting your position we don't need an announcement of the fact.


CycleThoughts said:
Who should I believe,  you or A 60-page review of the scientific evidence, some based on state-of-the-art magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of brain size?




This is a false choice and appeal to authority.

If you want to talk about faith, go to the magic mystery forum.  This forum discusses logic.

You've not even established the article and your opponent's views are contrary nor have you established that the article supports your view.  If your going to argue against that which has been alleged regarding these types of studies, or maintain your reliance in spite of such, you should address these arguments.  Simply asserting some undefined argument is supportive of you in some body of work is craptastic logic and debate.

Me_Roy said:
Quote:
Correlation is never Causation




Betcha didn't know that, OP.

Oh well, no use trying.  Lie back and accept your fate.


This is a fallacist's fallacy.

Far from never being the case, in fact, correlated factors are more likely to be causually related.

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: johnm214]
    #13462013 -



--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: Black boys score far behind white students [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13462058 -

CycleThoughts said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40095887/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times

There's obviously many reasons for this, since blacks didn't go to real school pre-1955, but maybe it is a racial-biological thing.  It seems so hard to accept that a certain race of people may be better equipped to handle academics.  Maybe blacks overall are less intelligent and have lower IQ's than other races.

We don't seem to have a problem accepting that blacks are better athlete's overall than whites, although that has a lot of factors too, including selective breeding during slavery.


I don't think you'll find a lot of sales for your premise, especially at this message board.

Here's an interesting quote from the article:

Quote:
Poverty alone does not seem to explain the differences: poor white boys do just as well as African-American boys who do not live in poverty, measured by whether they qualify for subsidized school lunches.


Yes, drawing on personal history and my family history, I would easily conclude that is true.  Why?  Because my relatives were Native American as am I.  They were, in fact, poor white trash from the South.  Yet, my uncle, who did not graduate due to absenteeism, scored the highest ever IQ the school had ever measured.  This isn't unusual for Native Americans.  Perhaps someone will explain how Native Americans, who live in abject poverty on reservations that blacks couldn't even imagine, score on IQ tests far above whites on average.

The only advice I can give you is not to post the truth around here.  Most aren't interested in it.

:goodluck:


--------------------

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