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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Neural Nipple Clamps
    #12680366 -

My research project just got switched from studying multiple sclerosis to studying patients of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT), specifically looking at its effects on cognition, memory, and spatial awareness.

Is this ethical?  :shocked:


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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12680431 -

act utilitarianism!!!!


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12680996 -

Ethical?  If ethics are relative there is no way to know, is there?


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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12681683 -

It seems ethical to me. If by *this* you mean studying ECT and not your superior's decision to change your project.

If they are already getting the therapy, won't it be helpful to look more closely at exactly what it's doing?

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Epigallo]
    #12682546 -

Quote:
Ethical?  If ethics are relative there is no way to know, is there?


I don't quite get the comment. I just wanted a judgment on the ethical implication of imposing a treatment regimen that has only minimal efficacy and serious side effects.

Quote:
If by *this* you mean studying ECT and not your superior's decision to change your projec


Definitely. Changing the project is just one of the horrors of research bureaucracy.

Quote:
If they are already getting the therapy, won't it be helpful to look more closely at exactly what it's doing?


I would think so, that's my current evaluation. But post-treatment evaluation is somewhat condoning; it's like saying well, they're already cutting the Jews--I might as well give them stitches. Of course, the research could lead to improving or abandoning the treatment strategy if the efficacy is deemed meager or the side effects are untenable, etc. Who knows? It just shocked me (no pun intended) to learn they are still doing this somewhat barbaric practice.

Quote:
act utilitarianism!!!!



We would just shoot the people in this case.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12682570 -



Why wouldn't this be ethical is the better question, IMO.  I miss the good old days when frontal lobotomies were still popular.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: deCypher]
    #12682599 -

Quote:
I miss the good old days when frontal lobotomies were still popular.


Tying them to the wall and beating them occasionally worked even better.

Quote:
Why wouldn't this be ethical is the better question, IMO


If they are so suicidal and bed-ridden that they poop their panties, the only real harm done is to public opinion and the pain of observing the process. Efficacy is dubious; the research goes either way, so I guess we'll see. At this point it just seems like a quick way to judge how inducing seizures can fuck with cognition.  More exciting than making undergrads participate in surveys for class credit. :lol:

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12682612 -

ECT is effective at treating depression, no?

albeit with some minor memory loss issues


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: deCypher]
    #12682637 -

Quote:
ECT is effective at treating depression, no?

albeit with some minor memory loss issues


Meh, efficacy doesn't appear to be that extraordinary over other non-invasive methods. The main difference is the efficacy statistics still remain decent at a 40-60% in treatment-resistant patients (after drugs and therapy were nil).

Long term seems pretty shitty, and the memory loss and other negative cognitive effects are serious. It's like fixing Lassie's broken butthole so he doesn't poop on the floor but he suddenly develops urinary incontinence. Damn if you do, damn if you don't, Mr. Catch 22.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12682644 -

therapies that engage the body while addressing problem memories (painful events) help

particularly this include therapies where the subject alternatively squeezes something gripped in hands while talking through the hard bits.

working the self through is what this is, getting a grip and being the process of healing.

ECT is a very poor version of that - very poor, in fact it is the idiot version.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: redgreenvines]
    #12682663 -

Quote:
ECT is a very poor version of that - very poor, in fact it is the idiot version.


I feel you, but your argument seems to assume that the hindrance to healing is primarily a psychological issue. ECT targets the condition on the basis that it is essentially neurological.

People who become catatonic seem to have a bit more than psychosomatics, in the same way that autoimmune disorders are linked to psychological states of mind but still characterized and embodied in physical malaise. Get my drift?

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12683117 -

ECT is used for many conditions beyond catatonia;
catatonics are a different issue than people with OCD, Depression, or schizophrenia.

I can't imagine what to do with catatonics. but in each case there is degree, and if they can eat solid food, a connection exists, and ECT does not seem any more necessary than hand grenades.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: redgreenvines]
    #12683672 -

redgreenvines said:
ECT is used for many conditions beyond catatonia;
catatonics are a different issue than people with OCD, Depression, or schizophrenia.

I can't imagine what to do with catatonics. but in each case there is degree, and if they can eat solid food, a connection exists, and ECT does not seem any more necessary than hand grenades.


The point wasn't to mention catatonia or the target uses of ECT, but rather to point out that it may be called for in some extreme cases when patients are treatment-resistant. What I've read in the literature is a mixed bag; some doctors approve, some don't. Some research says effective, some research says ineffective; some bioethics boards say no way, others say yes way.

I've never learned of any situation that is wholly black or white. I agree that throwing a hand grenade in a baby stroller to silence the crying is a primitive way to resolve conflict -- it embodies the quote "if all you have is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail". But if you've gone through the entire tool box, praying for rain isn't going to help.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12684585 -

Arden said:
Quote:
Ethical?  If ethics are relative there is no way to know, is there?


I don't quite get the comment. I just wanted a judgment on the ethical implication of imposing a treatment regimen that has only minimal efficacy and serious side effects.


But the problem is that science, including this medical treatment, is incapable of rendering ethical judgments or deciding ethical implications.  Science is value free.  My half smart ass/half serious question refers to ethical relativism that is all the rage these days.  You don't seem to have a problem rendering an ethical opinion on this issue depending on the circumstances and neither do I.  Nevertheless, the larger and more important question is purely philosophical.  To wit, how do we decide what is ethical and what is not?

This is precisely why I like philosophy.  It considers the backdrop in front of which many interesting questions are asked.  Peel the onion, find the truth, peel the onion, find more truth, etc.

Arden said:
redgreenvines said:
ECT is used for many conditions beyond catatonia;
catatonics are a different issue than people with OCD, Depression, or schizophrenia.

I can't imagine what to do with catatonics. but in each case there is degree, and if they can eat solid food, a connection exists, and ECT does not seem any more necessary than hand grenades.


The point wasn't to mention catatonia or the target uses of ECT, but rather to point out that it may be called for in some extreme cases when patients are treatment-resistant. What I've read in the literature is a mixed bag; some doctors approve, some don't. Some research says effective, some research says ineffective; some bioethics boards say no way, others say yes way.

I've never learned of any situation that is wholly black or white. I agree that throwing a hand grenade in a baby stroller to silence the crying is a primitive way to resolve conflict -- it embodies the quote "if all you have is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail". But if you've gone through the entire tool box, praying for rain isn't going to help.


Mixing metaphors?  :nono:  lol  Are you saying you have learned in this issue nothing is black or white or are you saying that as a general dictum?  Because if you are it sounds nearly like ethical relativism.

Quote:
There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. ~Epictetus



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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12684636 -

Quote:
Are you saying you have learned in this issue nothing is black or white or are you saying that as a general dictum?  Because if you are it sounds nearly like ethical relativism.


In general, I believe most problems to be interdependent and multi-faceted, very little is easily pigeon-holed or boxed away into tidy categories and simple answers, ethics included.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12684669 -

Situation Ethics by Fletcher?  By that criterion I suppose one would agree with ECT depending on the variables.  Do you?


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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12684829 -

Quote:
Situation Ethics by Fletcher?  By that criterion I suppose one would agree with ECT depending on the variables.  Do you?


Ethics is always situational, it is a transitive --ing operation. Meaning, astronomy, geology and the like, presumably exist as processes independent of human interaction (minus ourselves as the observation element). It seems simple enough to assume "people are involved", but the indications are huge in that it implies an active, ongoing process. It isn't evaluated as having essence or form, because the very essence and form is defined by the identifier (observer) who himself is operating on certain ethical principles or assumptions about the world. It's a loop. Similarly, the cold objectivity that is assumed of the natural sciences will always bear with it the blueprint of human consciousness. Those "patterns" that we see everywhere are themselves perceived by a mind-brain-spirit-what-the-fuck-ever that is composed of patterns.

As far as ECT goes, maybe it is helpful to look at the advantages and disadvantages as a matter of probability. After oneself is placed along the continuum then it should be judged as appropriate or inappropriate.

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12684935 -

Coulda just said, "yes."


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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12684963 -

Quote:
Coulda just said, "yes."


What's the fun in that? :tongue2:

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Re: Neural Nipple Clamps [Re: Arden]
    #12684982 -

:lol:  Just playin' with ya.

Arden said:
Similarly, the cold objectivity that is assumed of the natural sciences will always bear with it the blueprint of human consciousness.


That isn't true at all.  Science and scientists are purely objective.  They stand outside with perfect, though corrigible, knowledge.  That's why they hold the keys to things like quantum mechanics.  I know this because people say it all the time.  /sarcasm  Yes, that is the way I understand it too.

Arden said:
Those "patterns" that we see everywhere are themselves perceived by a mind-brain-spirit-what-the-fuck-ever that is composed of patterns.


Yes, you've been saying so a few times lately.  I've been thinking about it, but I am not familiar with the view or authors that espouse it.  I laughed at the "mind-brain-spirit-what-the-fuck-ever."  :thumbup:

Arden said:
As far as ECT goes, maybe it is helpful to look at the advantages and disadvantages as a matter of probability. After oneself is placed along the continuum then it should be judged as appropriate or inappropriate.


That is one way to decide if it is ethical or not ala situation ethics.  As a student and proponent of the Realist school I come from somewhere else.  I may use the interconnections to arrive at some conclusions, but certainly not others.  My psychological profile is INTJ.  That shouldn't be a surprise.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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