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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: fireworks_god]
    #12617984 -

fireworks_god said:
Noteworthy said:
Anyone? Psychiatric illness is a pretty significant topic id say. But the substance is behavior. Physiological tests occur after the person has died.


Your last sentence is confusing. Physiological tests are performed all the time to determine potential, physical causes for behavior, before a person is dead. MRI's, for example. A lot of psychical diseases have documented effects on behavior and these tests are all performed before a person has died. :wink:


Yes essentially there are some physical tests that can explain behavioral abnormalities, eg, scanning the brain to see if there is a tumour. However when these tests are positive, the psychiatrist hands the patient over to the 'real' doctors.

There is no physiological 'test' for a psychiatric illness. Physiological tests are used to remove physical illnesses from the possibly diagnoses.

When a psychiatric disorder is EXPLAINED by phsyical causes, eg, that schizophrenia is a high level of dopamine in frontal cortex, or an overactive BOLD response in a particular region of the amygdala, or whatever, then physical tests might be used to try to give weight to this theory by gathering people who have already been deemed 'schizophrenic' and seeing patterns in their results. But finding high levels of dopamine in a person does not make them schizophrenic.

Maybe doing a brain biopsy would help confirm that someone really has plaque in their brain. but do you know that sort of thing to be part of psychiatry?

No, it is about interpreting behaviour and then prescribing pharmaceuticals that have been shown to have certain effects on behaviour.

I'm sure there is plenty of 'good' in global psychiatry. Eg psychiatrists who keep their diagnoses to themselves and refrain from long-term medication schemes. But I really don't think they represent 'psychiatry' in general or the modern approach to psychiatric illness which is that a person is 'broken' if they do not behave in the right way.

but most of it is clearly a money making scheme that preys on emotional people and their parents.

I do not buy into the idea that there is no such thing as mental illness. There are clearly people with issues out there. I think that every part of the body can break and a person can also be born with almost any part of their body malfunctional.

The issue here is the fact that: physical theories for mental illnesses are pathetic. BUT physical treatments for mental illness are dominant. Depression is a lack of serotonin? ever thought that the brain naturally does not release serotonin when it stimulated in a certain way? oh but rather than look at society and the way we are stimulating people, we should of course treat behavioural misfits as the error and silence them with our expensive methods!


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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12618495 -

Noteworthy said:
Icelander said:
Show me color without an eye to perceive it. It may exist but that has noting to do with consciousness.

By using color they can tell the basic chemical make up of stars.


oh no.. my bullshit meter is beeping...

hang on did he just say that we use colour to tell the basic chemical make up of stars or that we measure electromagnetic energy?


hang on did he just say the 'impression' of colour?
what the hell is that? is it... a colour?? (yes... duh)

icelander stop being a zombie

you cannot prove any experience exists but it is all we actually know is real. let us not drag this thread along that unrelated dimension anymore.



It's been awhile and I'm no scientist but I remember them using color spectrum to determine the makeup of stars in deep space. I could be wrong. I'm no expert here.

http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/sow/spectra.html


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Icelander]
    #12618537 -

do you honestly not see the difference between electromagnetic radiation and colour? Or are you being difficult???

I will assume you are being genuine:
If we are detecting electromagnetic radiation with our eyes (one of various possible ways to detect electromagnetic radiation) then we will end up identifying it through colour. The colours we experience are modulated by the sort of electromagnetic radiation hitting our eyes.

There is a relationship between two different things here:
the physical phenomenon that we deem to 'objectively' exist
and
the sentience-phenomenon that we experience when the aformentioned physical phenomenon interacts with our physical [body]. This is something that no one can objectively show to anyone else.

-A colour ONLY exists to a sentient viewpoint.
-Colour also exists WITHOUT eyes to percieve it (think about people who have lost their eyes.. do you think they suddenly lose their ability to imagine or dream about the things that they once experienced? dreams can be very vivid in colour).


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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12618670 -

I'm rarely being difficult. I never made it in school and missed out on almost all the cool math and science stuff.

A colour ONLY exists to a sentient viewpoint.

That was the point we were debating imo.

While a blind person may remember and perceive color, how are they doing that? What is the cause of that remembering? Isn't it chemical?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Icelander]
    #12618686 -

Cause of remembering? Well we can see that information about memories is stored as patterns in the brain. so we know that such processes are involved in the experience of remembering.

Once again, the brain is obviously involved in modulating experience


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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12618695 -

Well that's what I was getting at and more. Just because we cannot find a physical thought doesn't mean anything metaphysical is going on. Not in any major magical way like some say is obvious. It's the result of how the brain works. Without that brain or some sensory organ there may be nothing happening outside of physical processes. Does anyone know for sure?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (05/24/10 10:01 AM)

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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Icelander]
    #12618715 -

I do not think it is majorily magical to think that something exists in a way that we cannot physically measure. It seems that all the physical laws still hold in the brain. It is merely unfortunate that popular notion of 'determinism' is still the default scientific position. Our best science describes the universe in probabilities. Various possibilities may hold equal weight to physics, but the universe itself may unfold in a specific way according to specific possibilities, which themselves might be 'determined' by 'non-physical' factors.
The reason that 'hidden factor' theories are not very popular today is because no scientist can actually experiment on them. The copenhagen guys put their foot down on 'admitting to existance only that which can be demonstrated'


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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12618838 -

Well that makes sense. I can suspect anything I want but to make a claim of truth on some subjective idea never will float with me. I have never objected to people speculating. I do plenty of it myself but I don't claim to know what is ultimately true based on that speculation. That shit goes on here all the time imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12620195 -

soldatheero said:
The Myth of Mental Illness  If that doesn't work, try the book (same title and author).


I read the it. While he makes a convincing argument, his "Oh noes! psychiatry is teh evil!" doesn't really sit well with me.
Psychiatric patients are treated horribly in the U.S., and I don't doubt that incarcerating a person in a ward somewhere is nice. I never said it was. It's not. They're far less than pleasant places.
That said, it doesn't mean psychiatry at large, or even the psychiatrists are evil, or even severely misguided.
Not everyone is trying to squeeze people into a category based on a multifactorial approach using behaviors, genetics, or psychoanalysis.

soldatheero said:
. These are factors but not primary causes, primary causes are what is occurring in the individuals soul or heart or mind - in perception.


I never said they were primary causes. I believe I said there were many factors. These are some of them.

Science quantifies everything by stating it is based on biology, chemicals transmitted to the brain, metabolized and so forth. Of course there's also electrical impulses, but those are regulated by chemicals too.

However-as I said before, there are vast quantities of unknowns. Science has yet to explain many things, and it will be a very long time before they can do so.


--------------------
:awecid:    :sunstone:  :nitrous:

(Thanks to Sui for letting me use this!)

"....buy small portions of say 1/2 gram...buy from a reliable internet source (they're out there) and store in a cool, dark, secret place"

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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: KinichAhau]
    #12622926 -

KinichAhau said:
soldatheero said:
The Myth of Mental Illness  If that doesn't work, try the book (same title and author).


I read the it. While he makes a convincing argument, his "Oh noes! psychiatry is teh evil!" doesn't really sit well with me.
Psychiatric patients are treated horribly in the U.S., and I don't doubt that incarcerating a person in a ward somewhere is nice. I never said it was. It's not. They're far less than pleasant places.
That said, it doesn't mean psychiatry at large, or even the psychiatrists are evil, or even severely misguided.
Not everyone is trying to squeeze people into a category based on a multifactorial approach using behaviors, genetics, or psychoanalysis.


You should get bonus points for actually reading a book (some around here don't seem to) and extra bonus points for reading a book I have read.  I read some of the reviews on Amazon and, just like here, it gets mixed reviews.  I don't remember Szasz going on a witch hunt, but apparently you do.  What I found compelling was the historical account of schizophrenia.  Here are two reviews.  First, from a person who admittedly has mental problems.  They rated the book a one.

Quote:
In the 1960's facing the cruel conditions of institutionalization and coercive psychiatry, writers such as R.D. Laing, Ken Kesey and Thomas Szasz commented on real oppression but took a swerve in the opposite direction. As a person with mental illness, I cannot agree with what Thomas Szasz is saying. Yes medication has horrific side effects. Yes coercion is wrong. Yes some people are diagnosed with a mental illness who have psychological problems (but in another book he is opposed to talk therapy as well, what isn't this guy opposed to?), yes some people are given medication who could do without it, yes there are new diagnoses that are not credible (road rage) but mental illness does exist. Denying mental illness and then saying the insanity defense should be eliminated because of course people did it according to their own volition (according to Szasz's reasoning) is a classic extreme libertarian viewpoint, stating firmly what is wrong but failing to come up with humanitarian alternatives. Read any book by Judi Chamberlin (a real life consumer/survivor) or track down the movie Hurry Tommorow (about the horrific conditions in an institution from the point of view of the "patients") instead of this dated, academic, dully written excercise in philosophy that detracts from the people it is supposedly championing.


And a 5 star rating:

Quote:
I believe this is one of the most important books in the history of psychiatry. The book is ground-breaking and establishes a new parardigm and organizing concept for many "mind" disciplines. Dr Szasz's ideas are timeless, revolutionary and common sense - not to be contrued as a criticism. Indeed many revolutionary ideas are simple and obvious and I think that is exactly why this book and Dr Szasz must be taken seriously. I am speaking behind the times when I say this because the book is nearly 40 years on the market. However Dr Szasz is as relevant today as ever. Institutionalized persecution of "different" behaviours has evolved beyond the ridiculous to the absurd. Dr Szasz's characterization of this as a "war on personal responsibility" is important from a medical and a moral perspective, as a challenge to the popular notions of "inner child", the gowing "victim" industry (e.g. gambling and shopping "addictions", among many many more) and similiar conceptual garabage.

The Myth of Mental Illness creates for the reader a reference point for cross diciplinary thinking in sociology, linguistics, philosophy of mind and science, psychology, history and or course medicine. The concepts are true to human beings as self-responsible moral agents and consistent with the North American work-ethic. Dr Szasz is commended for his insight and understanding of a pyschiatric industry gone mad. The book should be part of Amazon's "Well Worth Reading" displays.


I may re-read it due to your opinion.  Thanks.


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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12623027 -

At first I presumed your commentary regarding "bonus points" was sarcastic. After continuing to read, I was misinformed.

Dr. Sasz's intentions to help redefine a discipline at a time when it really needed it terribly, were meant for good but were ultimately viewed by the majority of the medical and psychiatric communities as a demonizing of things, additionally the denial of serious psychological illness.

With that in mind- as a student of psychology (yes, really) we're taught, literally from the first day, about the history. Not just of psychology and psychiatry but of the state, both past and present, of hospitals, institutions and the like.

I am morbidly fascinated by these histories-both terrifying and haunting to note that another human would be treated so terribly.
Lobotomies, electroconvulsive shock treatment. Oh, and insulin shock. Good times. /sigh

Anyhow-after finishing an entire book on Sc (abbreviation for schizophrenia in psychology) and a 4o+ page chapter with teeny tiny font encompassing Sc in all forms, from the history, to theoretical models, second-hand accounts from family members, first-hand from those suffering the effects of it, I found it fascinating if not daunting to wade through.
Speaking of which, the final about this exact topic is tomorrow-I'm going to bed.


--------------------
:awecid:    :sunstone:  :nitrous:

(Thanks to Sui for letting me use this!)

"....buy small portions of say 1/2 gram...buy from a reliable internet source (they're out there) and store in a cool, dark, secret place"

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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: KinichAhau]
    #12623176 -

Good night.  I'm glad you came back to post.  Yes, it would hard to ignore such things as frontal lobotomies and all the other horrors of days gone by.  At that time we thought we were doing the right thing.  We still think the same thing now.  That's where I start to have a problem.  I'm not a huge fan of institutions not matter how credible they seem to be.  That would include our government, public education, unions, corporate hegemony, social activist groups, radical left wing or right wing political groups, or the Dairymen's association.  I assume, without knowing much about it personally, that psychiatry does good.  I am certain, being an institution, they do much evil.  I don't think it's intention other than wanting to line their pockets with little regard for people as individuals.

My closest connection to this came from my ex-wife.  I couldn't decide if she was bug-shit crazy or merely barking mad.  She had a number of pharmaceuticals that were supposed to help.  And she tried numerous "therapies."  As you can guess, nothing did.  She was a big fan of psychiatry and psychology (big shock) and, in her less than sane moments, a facilitator for a New Age group that espoused its own brand of "healing."  Do those fields help people?  Surely.  Just not anyone I have ever known.

My compliments were sincere and I appreciate your gentle, honest approach to this issue.  I wish you all the best as you try to help people.


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Re: Psychiatric Illness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12624534 -

Noteworthy said:
Yes essentially there are some physical tests that can explain behavioral abnormalities, eg, scanning the brain to see if there is a tumour.


Do they all happen after death? :tongue:
'Cause that's the only thing from what you said that I was counter-pointing. Everything else I posted was simply my own view on the topic at hand.

I think I pretty much agree with everything else you had to say on the subject, with the exception of the characterization of most psychiatrists out to prey on emotional people and families for money. I think its only a matter of drawing a parallel to the medical doctors of yore that had a much more limited understanding of the body than medical science has today. Those doctors, I'm sure, were for the most part genuinely interested in helping their patients, just as I think that most psychiatrists now genuinely think that their conception of how the brain and mind function is accurate and that they're heading in the right direction with their practice. The mind isn't something very well understood, scientifically and in the general usage of it, so of course that the medical perspective, which is based pretty firmly in the body and how it can be observed to function, is going to be limited yet, since there's a lot concerning the mind that simply isn't evidenced within the body itself. There's psychological conceptions of the mind and subsequent therapies that seem to be very predictive and can meet success in treatment of all sorts of "disorders", but these are ahead of the curve and of course haven't permeated the medical establishment yet. Things are always progressing.

At the same time, I think that there is a huge disparity in the amount of money that one gets per hour for prescribing medication as opposed to conducting psychological therapy. Pharmaceuticals is a huge industry. Then, you have the patients themselves, some of which are actually not interested in investing themselves in a more involved psychotherapy and instead opt for medication, as it requires less effort. At the very least, the fact that the generalized psychiatric style of approaching behavior continues to be evidenced to be faulty in various respects drives the furthering of understanding by pushing more people to look elsewhere and deeper for the answers. That's just the way things go, especially when a species starts from zero knowledge or understanding and has to continue to gather it and refine it and evolve them themselves. :wink:

It's like "Hey, we have this brain here, let's keep scanning it and push all kinds of various chemicals in various combinations and dosages through it and see what changes result".
Its crazy monkey stuff. :shrug: :monkeydance:
It's like taking apart a car piece by piece to learn how each piece functions and how it all relates. It isn't going to teach you how to drive it through. That's something you learn through driving it. You can't make it steer left at all the right times by putting some kind of mechanic manipulator on the corresponding cable to pull it for you.
You have to learn how to synthesize these chemicals with your thoughts. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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