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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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The down side of alternative fuels.
    #1248660 - 01/25/03 06:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Everybody wants an alternative to fossil fuel, mostly oil even though the minority of environmental damage by fossil fuels is done by oil, 70%-80% of it is from coal, and America is the king of coal.

What about the countries that are REALLY dependent on Oil, like Venesuela, and the middle east, those people aren't doing so hot economically as it is now, if the oil industry suddenly went obsolete, where would that put them?



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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1248669 - 01/25/03 06:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Eventually they have to find other economic sources since oil isn't renewable. Better sooner than later maybe?


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1248710 - 01/25/03 06:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What about the countries that are REALLY dependent on Oil


Economic diversity is the key, if they can't do it, oh well.
Quote:

where would that put them?


Right next to all the people that lost their jobs with any advancement in technology, working for McDonalds.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1248728 - 01/25/03 06:46 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

>>>working for McDonalds.<<<

That might work for the American Gas station attendants. Where's Habbib going to work, at the sand store?


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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1248900 - 01/25/03 07:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Meeting the increase in demand for energy will pose neither a major supply challenge nor lead to substantial price increases in real terms. Estimates of the world's total endowment of oil have steadily increased as technological progress in extracting oil from remote sources has enabled new discoveries and more efficient production. Recent estimates indicate that 80 percent of the world's available oil still remains in the ground, as does 95 percent of the world's natural gas.

By 2015, global energy markets will have coalesced into two quasi-hemispheric patterns. Asia's energy needs will be met either through coal from the region or from oil and gas supplies from the Persian Gulf, Central Asia, and Russia. Western Europe and the Western Hemisphere will draw on the Atlantic Basin for their energy sources at world prices.

Anyway oil wont be obsolete. If the major energy users find alternate fuels it will drive prices down and benifit anyone still using it.. And as far as the middle east, fuck it, they get what they want to. No US intrest in them anymore. No intrest in them from anyone. Besides what do you mean they aren't doing so well now. The Saudi's seem to have plenty of money and so would Saddam if he could just sell outright. Maybe the average person in those contries is not doing so hot but that is not the global economy's fault, it is the fault of their Gov.


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OfflineTaliesy
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1252873 - 01/27/03 11:13 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Seeing the title of this post I thought it was going to be about ethanol and hydrogen fuel cells. What are we doing still talking about oil? The reason for wanting alternative fuels shouldn't be environmental, the damage has already been done. It should be about running an efficient economy, not relying on the last few drops of oil.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Taliesy]
    #1254288 - 01/28/03 06:21 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

This thread is about the economic ramifications of the move from oil to other fuels.

Fuel cells have been made that run on Borax. America has vast fields of Borax.

I think fossil fuels are still damaging the environment. Alternative fuel will do little to reduce the amount of carbon being released into the environment.

High efficiency solar cells and/or fusion are the big contenders there. Oh, and conservation  :tongue: like that's really going to happen.


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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1254928 - 01/28/03 09:53 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Baby Hitler writes:

Fuel cells have been made that run on Borax.

Incorrect. Borax is what's left over AFTER the fuel cell is exhausted -- the two waste products of the cell's electricity-producing reaction are water and borax.

pinky


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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Phred]
    #1254965 - 01/28/03 10:03 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

True, but I believe the raw material the fuel is made from is Borax.


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Offlinebluesky
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1254990 - 01/28/03 10:11 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

All this fuckin hype about hydrogen fuel cells and nothing about hemp fuel. Hemp fuel is not costly to make and releases carbon-dioxide as exhaust actually helping plant life which creates our oxygen. Plus we don't have to convert from the internal combustion engine to a hydrogen cell. I dont see a problem with that for an alternate fuel source.


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Edited by bluesky (01/28/03 10:13 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: bluesky]
    #1254998 - 01/28/03 10:14 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Soybeans are better than hemp for fuel.

We already have biodiesel made (mostly) from soybeans.


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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1255112 - 01/28/03 10:42 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Baby Hitler writes:

True, but I believe the raw material the fuel is made from is Borax.

No, what's left over AFTER the chemical reaction takes place inside the cell is borax. The original compound is sodium borohydride (let's say SBH for short), it busts loose hydrogen gas. SBH is a highly reactive and corrosive chemical used for drastic jobs such as bleaching paper; it's definitely not borax. Fuel SBH is dissolved in water, with a stabilizing chemical added to keep the potion from rapidly decomposing. It is not a compound found in nature, and the process of manufacturing it consumes more energy than it will release in a fuel cell.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/28/03 10:49 AM)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Phred]
    #1255135 - 01/28/03 10:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

the raw material mined is a mixture of sodium borates, which is basically borax. They make sodium borohydride from that which converts back to borax when it releases it's energy.

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInformation/IndustryInformationExternal/IndustryInformationDisplayArticle/0,1168,392,00.html

In July 2001, Millennium Cell, Inc. and U.S. Borax Inc today agreed to jointly accelerate the development of a synthesis process for converting sodium borates to sodium borohydride. Millennium Cell is a development-stage company that has created a proprietary technology to safely store, generate and deliver pure hydrogen. In Millennium Cell's Hydrogen on Demand process, hydrogen is generated from sodium borohydride. U.S. Borax is the world's leading supplier of borates, the key component of sodium borohydride.

http://www.greenwave.com/products/appliances/fuelcells/3118

The chemical equation for the fuel processing is:
NaBH4 + 2 H2O ~ 4 H2 + NaBO2
Sodium Borohydride water catalyst hydrogen Sodium borate
(recyclable)
After processing, the spent fuel is sodium borate which is chemically identical to borax. The spent fuel can be reprocessed into sodium boro-hydride and reused in a fuel cell vehicle.


They run on borax.

I win.  :grin:


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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1255170 - 01/28/03 11:04 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Baby Hitler writes:

They run on borax. I win.

Incorrect. They run on hydrogen, which is obtained from the decomposition of sodium borohydrate.

As your own link points out: "After processing, the spent fuel is sodium borate which is chemically identical to borax."

"Spent fuel" is ashes. The fuel for a campfire is not ashes, it is WOOD. Ashes are what is left over when the chemical reaction (in the case of a campfire, combustion) is finished. Would you say you can toast your weinies by gathering up ashes and trying to ignite them? Nope, because ashes are not FUEL, they are what is LEFT OVER when the fuel has given up its energy.

This is a basic grade school chemistry concept we're talking here. The fuel is NOT borax, it is sodium borohydride.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Phred]
    #1255224 - 01/28/03 11:23 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I never said the fuel was borax, I said the cars run on borax.

In July 2001, Millennium Cell, Inc. and U.S. Borax Inc today agreed to jointly accelerate the development of a synthesis process for converting sodium borates to sodium borohydride.

Sodium borohydride is made from borax (sodium borates), and reverts back to borax after it is "spent".

Your ashes analogy is just all wrong. This stuff can be recharged, and turned back into borohydrate. You can't recharge ashes, and turn them back into wood.


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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1255309 - 01/28/03 11:50 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I said the cars run on borax.

They DON'T run on borax, they run on sodium hydroborate. That is NOT the same chemical.

This stuff can be recharged, and turned back into borohydrate.

I know that. I also know that the process of converting the borax to sodium hydroborate takes more energy than is released in the fuel cell when the sodium hydroborate is converted to borax. It is a net LOSS of energy.

You can't recharge ashes, and turn them back into wood.

Fine. Let's not talk about burning wood, let's talk about burning hydrogen. The "ash" left over once hydrogen has combusted is water. You can reverse the process and separate the water into hydrogen and oxygen again (through electrolysis), and repeat the process indefinitely. The problem is that the energy required to "recharge" your "fuel" (hydrogen) is greater than the amount of energy you obtained from BURNING the fuel. This is what no one in the Green movement seems to be able to grasp. Hydrogen fuel cells are a method of STORING energy, not of CREATING it. Hydrogen does not exist in a free state on the planet earth -- 99.99999% of it is locked up in some other chemical compound, and before you can fill the fuel cell with hydrogen you must first extract it from some source. The act of extracting it consumes more energy than you receive from the hydrogen processed by the fuel cell.

The only reason sodium hydroborate (NOT borax) is attractive for automobiles using fuel cells rather than gaseous hydrogen in a tank is that it doesn't require a high pressure containment vessel -- the hydrogen is released from the sodium hydroborate "on demand". Less chance of a catastrophic explosion involving an entire tankful of gaseous hydrogen.

Bottom line is that fuel cells by their nature are net CONSUMERS of energy. If we had a way of sending some spaceship out and scooping up giant clouds of interstellar hydrogen, compressing it, and delivering it back to earth, THEN we could call fuel cells energy PRODUCERS. But as long as we have to expend energy to produce the hydrogen from terrestrial sources, we end up with a net energy loss.

pinky


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Re: The down side of alternative fuels. [Re: Phred]
    #1255621 - 01/28/03 01:44 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think we're splitting hairs on the borax/borohydrate debate.

But yes, you are correct the borohydrate fuel cells, or any fuel cells are, in effect, batteries.

We'll have cars that run on hemp just as soon as we figure out how to get the roots and stalks into the gas tank. Then people can say "My car runs on hemp" rather than "My car runs methylated hempseed oil".


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