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InvisibleEvolving
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66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts
    #2058517 - 10/30/03 09:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

GAO Study: 66% of California Forest Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled
By Environmental Groups
By Nicol Andrews


Washington, DC - House Resources Committee Chairman Richard W. Pombo (R-CA) today issued a background memo and executive summary on a newly-released GAO report entitled "Information on Forest Service Decisions Involving Fuels Reduction Activities." The study provides a quantitative assessment of the impact of Forest Service appeals on forest management activities.


    Among the GAO's findings:
  • 59% of eligible forest thinning projects in the U.S. were appealed in FY2001 and FY2002.
  • 52% of eligible forest thinning projects proposed near communities in the Wildland-Urban Interface were appealed in FY2001 and FY2002.
  • Environmental appeals were found to be overwhelmingly without merit, as 161 of 180 challenges were thrown out during FY2001 and FY2002.
  • 66% of all eligible forest fuels reduction activities were appealed in the state of California during FY2001 and FY2002.
  • Appeals delayed thinning projects by at least 120 days in FY2001 and FY2002.

"With nearly one million acres worth of hazardous fuels reduction projects tied up in appeals during this two-year period, the GAO analysis crystallizes the fact that administrative appeals constitute a significant impediment to getting a handle on America's forest health and wildfire crisis," Chairman Pombo said. "This paralysis by analysis continues to threaten our national forests and those who live in and around them. The Healthy Forests legislation will remove these administrative hand cuffs from the Forest Service and allow them to reduce the risk of catastrophic fires."


"The so-called environmental community has already begun to mischaracterize the findings of the GAO report by comparing the number of environmental appeals against a universe of projects that includes a category of small scale treatment projects that are not even eligible for appeal under federal law, including prescribed burns, Christmas tree cutting, and firewood removal projects," Pombo continued. "This, of course, artificially and disingenuously lowers the percentage of projects appealed. But when you examine the projects truly focused on large scale fire risk reduction, the evidence is clear - environmentalists have undertaken a systematic effort to obstruct thinning projects around the West, including California."


"There is universal understanding that catastrophic fires decimate our forests, leaving them with no biological biodiversity whatsoever," Pombo said. "They pollute the air, poison water supplies, kill endangered species and other wildlife, and threaten human life. I call on the environmental community in the U.S. to actually get on the side of the environment and the people, and support the Healthy Forests legislation."


To read the Chairman's memo on the GAO's findings, click here.

For the most up-to-date wildfire information and statistics, visit the National Interagency Fire Center website at http://www.nifc.gov/


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Evolving]
    #2058583 - 10/30/03 10:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That have a habit of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.



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Offlinehongomon
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Evolving]
    #2059242 - 10/31/03 01:16 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

These things draw us together, these things tear us apart.

"It is almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about fire prevention policies, because the trust levels are so low between two of the factions. Neither side believes that the other is being totally up-front and honest about their real intentions, their motives, and their values. The suspicion of hidden agendas poisons all public debate."

from here


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: hongomon]
    #2059568 - 10/31/03 03:13 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Those wacky Bush administration environmentalists.Article

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Just as the Southern California wildfires were beginning late last week, the Bush administration quietly turned down a six-month-old emergency request by Gov. Gray Davis for help in removing dead and dying trees in the same forests now being consumed by flame.
In April, Davis asked for a federal emergency declaration in three counties where bark beetle infestation had left thousands of acres of dense woodland vulnerable to fire.

If approved, the presidential proclamation would have paved the way for millions of dollars in federal support for clearing dead trees in San Diego, Riverside and San Bernardino counties.


"We made the request in the hope of making a horrific situation less serious and we were turned down," Davis spokesman Steve Maviglio said.

A spokesman for the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which handled the Davis request, said it decided against the proposal largely because Congress had already agreed to provide $43 million this year for fighting the beetle infestation in Southern California and the sum seemed appropriate at the time.

But state officials say the money represented only a small part of the $450 million needed to clear the forest of dead trees and eliminate the fire danger.

State officials have estimated the fires -- which have burned about 2,600 homes, blackened about 730,000 acres and killed at least 20 people -- could take a $2 billion toll on California's economy.

After four years of drought, nearly a half-million acres of dense woodland in Southern California had become infested by the bark beetle. Local and state officials had warned that the forests were a disaster waiting to happen, and some have criticized Davis for not moving more aggressively to combat the problem.

In an April 16 letter to FEMA officials, Davis said, "Supplementary federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health and foster safety."

A response from the letter has still not been received by the governor's office, Maviglio said. The state was notified by the office of Rep. Mary Bono, R-Calif., last Friday that the request had been turned down.

The FEMA denial came a few days after the first of the major fires began to rage out of control in San Diego and San Bernardino counties.

"I don't want to second-guess that decision," said Chad Kolton, FEMA spokesman. "They were asking for federal resources and federal resources were being provided."

State Sen. Jim Brulte, a Republican whose district includes big parts of the fire-ravaged area, said that it was not fair for Davis to suggest the federal government has not been doing enough.

"The Davis administration twice rejected San Bernardino's request for a state of emergency to be declared and we had to beat up on them to finally get it," he said. "The fact is that everyone has been late to this party."

The beetles, which are native to California, drill into bark, seeking the moist inner layers to feed on. Typically, they can kill only drought-weakened trees.

Healthy trees are able to expel the invaders by flooding the infestation with resin, which drought-stressed trees can't produce. Once the infestation has begun the trees are starved of water and nutrients and quickly die.


ANOTHER ARTICLE


--------------------


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2060167 - 10/31/03 11:39 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There is universal understanding that catastrophic fires decimate our forests, leaving them with no biological biodiversity whatsoever," Pombo said. "They pollute the air, poison water supplies, kill endangered species and other wildlife, and threaten human life. I call on the environmental community in the U.S. to actually get on the side of the environment and the people, and support the Healthy Forests legislation."

it makes me sad to think of all those catastrophic fires decimating
the planet for millions and millions of years when we weren't around
to control them.

what a crock!

fire is a natural cycle.

there are a number of trees in the california forests that depend on
this yearly fire cycle to release their seeds from the cone.

furthermore, the healthy forest iniative wasn't going to solve
the problem.

the logging companies want the live trees.

the reason places like San Bernadino county are burning is because
severe beetle infestations have killed thousands, if not millions
of trees.

if you want to prevent catastrophic fires, you don't cut down
the large, live trees. you remove the dead ones.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: afoaf]
    #2060685 - 10/31/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, you do cut down large live trees too, and clear out excessive underbrush. As a result of decades of "protection" out forrests have been deprived of much needed fire resulting in too many trees that are smaller, and thinner than they should be and forrests that are far thicker than a true natural forrest is supposed to be.

In a natural forrest trees are 30-70 feet apart with sparse vegetation in between. When a fire comes through, it is essentially a small brush fire that leaves the larger trees unaffected. As it is now, our forrests are clogged with brush and far more spindly little trees than there should be, the result when a fire comes through is utter devestation.


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: afoaf]
    #2061246 - 10/31/03 06:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
it makes me sad to think of all those catastrophic fires decimating
the planet for millions and millions of years when we weren't around
to control them.



Used to be before human intervention, fires were allowed to burn. Now they are not, with the resulting build up of fuels. This of course still wasn't a problem as long as people were allowed to remove the built up fuels in other ways. However, environmental whack jobs gained political clout, preventing and stalling efforts to remove the fuel.

Quote:

there are a number of trees in the california forests that depend on
this yearly fire cycle to release their seeds from the cone.



It is true that there are certain species of trees that need this, I do not know if there are any in southern California in the San Bernadino mountains. Perhaps you could tell me which of the following species require this: Ponderosa Pine, Jeffery Pine, White Fir, Western Red Cedar or perhaps some others. Regardless, all fires are suppressed as soon as they can be. This is why it is important to allow the clearing of the fuels that build up.

Quote:

furthermore, the healthy forest iniative wasn't going to solve
the problem.



You do not know this.

Quote:

the logging companies want the live trees.



Live trees compete with each other for water. Because of fire suppression, there are more live trees than there used to be. Also, the forest service used to allow citizens (after paying a fee) to go into the forest and remove dead trees for firewood. This has been prevented in recent years because of self loathing humans who would rather see there own kind die than allow them to benefit from dead trees.

Quote:

the reason places like San Bernadino county are burning is because severe beetle infestations have killed thousands, if not millions
of trees.



Again, this has gotten out of hand because an increased number of trees are competing for less water. The bark beetle is natural to the area and does not affect healthy trees that have plenty of water. A bark beetle borrowing into the bark of a healthy tree will be drowned by the sap. If people would be allowed to cut down some trees and remove dead trees (or there was NEVER any fire suppression) the bark beetle would be held in check and ther would be less build up of fuel.

Quote:

if you want to prevent catastrophic fires, you don't cut down
the large, live trees. you remove the dead ones.



Actually, you can do both in a well managed manner. Why is this so hard to grasp?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Evolving]
    #2061304 - 10/31/03 07:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Evolving]
    #2061438 - 10/31/03 08:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

great information!

thank you, captain forest.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Evolving]
    #2062305 - 11/01/03 05:28 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

what you're saying is basically right, but it's hardly fair to blame environmentalists for these fires. I mean, some of them were started by arsonists!, and then there is the drought and the bark beetle infestation.

and here in Socal, there aren't a lot of "natural" fires since we don't have too many thunderstorms. most fires here are caused by man, so the "natural clearing" argument doesn't really apply here. and plus, most fires here aren't in the forests, they are in the dry brush and small trees that cover the hills so logging really isn't a factor either, the fires sometimes go way up into the mountains, but as you know, this is not common. this year was an exception.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2062347 - 11/01/03 07:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't appear to me he blames the wackos FOR the fires, merely for the SEVERITY of the fires.

And rightly so.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Evolving]
    #2062728 - 11/01/03 03:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The number one cause of the problems of our forests--from overpopulation to beetle infestation, is fire supression. Far and away. Decades of it. Notice, when you hear of the major fires during fire season, the human-centeredness of the reports. Number of homes evacuated, casualties, fires approaching towns, developments, etc. There may have been an occasional forest fire way out in no-man's land that was allowed to take its natural course, but for the most part firefighters are sent to "contain" the fire before it poses any danger.


Prescribed burns are another example of humans trying to fix one of their messes. The biggest problem is that the eco-systems, even the chaparrals in SoCal, are ALL supposed to burn. Millions of acres. That's a lot of controlled fires. And in addition to enviro-wackos, there are also suburbia-wackos, who resist regular burns near their communities (where they are most needed in the human pov) and there are polital-wackos, who are afraid of liability if a prescribed burn goes wrong (and well, they are playing with fire)--liability because this country is so full of sue-happy-wackos and lawyer-wackos more than happy to help them out.

But the bottom line is our firefighting, and our "containment" of these fires, is way closer to the heart of the problem than all the shit caused by the whole confederacy of wackos.

hongomon


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2063884 - 11/02/03 12:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
and here in Socal, there aren't a lot of "natural" fires since we don't have too many thunderstorms.



I live in the San Bernadino mountains (I am not there right now because I have evacuated). There are NUMEROUS thunderstorms up in the mountains as well as in the deserts. You really need to get out of the urban costal areas.

Quote:

most fires here are caused by man



I am sure that in the urban areas that this is true. However, I would like you to back up that allegation with some evidence that would convince me that the same applies to wilderness areas.

Quote:

so the "natural clearing" argument doesn't really apply here.



You are wrong. Studies conducted in the immediate border areas between Mexico and the U.S. bear out the "natural clearing" argument. In Mexico, fire suppression is not practiced unless a fire is near a population center, otherwise fires are allowed to burn. As a consequence, the majority of Mexican wild fires are less severe and cover a smaller area than those across the border. The lesson to be applied from this is that if fire suppression is practiced, there must be some other mechanism to reduce fuel.

Quote:

most fires here aren't in the forests,



Source please. If you do not live in the forests, you do not see them. That does not mean they do not happen. In the past two months alone, I have witnessed 5 forest fires that were put out.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: hongomon]
    #2063912 - 11/02/03 12:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hongomon said:
The number one cause of the problems of our forests--from overpopulation to beetle infestation, is fire supression.



This is true, again - the lesson to be applied from this is that if fire suppression is practiced, there must be some other mechanism to reduce fuel.

Quote:

Notice, when you hear of the major fires during fire season, the human-centeredness of the reports. Number of homes evacuated, casualties, fires approaching towns, developments, etc.



Seeing as we are HUMANS, isn't it natural that we should be interested in what affects the survival and well being of OUR species?

Quote:

... there are also suburbia-wackos, who resist regular burns near their communities (where they are most needed in the human pov) and there are polital-wackos, who are afraid of liability if a prescribed burn goes wrong (and well, they are playing with fire)--liability because this country is so full of sue-happy-wackos and lawyer-wackos more than happy to help them out.



The RATIONAL approach to this situation is to allow other, less hazardous means of reducing fuels that build up. Cutting down brush and reasonable thinning of forests is a LOT less risky than controlled burns. But then, the environmental extremists really do not care about the welfare of their fellow man. As I stated before, they are consumed with self loathing and contempt for others of their species. Instead of rationally addressing the situation, they would rather see people and their dwellings burned, and human lives destroyed to fulfill their sick fantasies of 'purification of the environment' of the 'scourge of mankind.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Evolving]
    #2064314 - 11/02/03 05:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

yeah I've been up to the mountains and I know there are thunderstorms, but as I'm sure you're aware, most of the seaonal fires in southern California are brushfires in the hills (like the Malibu fire), not full blown forest fires like we've seen recently. and many "forests" that burn regularly, like the ones in the dry Angeles national forest and the Santa Monica mts., are not really suitable for logging, so it would be inaccurate to blame environmentalists for fires in this area.

and I think the reason there are less fires south of the border is because there is less vegetation down there, not because of their environmental policy.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2064336 - 11/02/03 06:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I cant belive this

so because they didnt want the trees cut you blame the fires on them>?(enviro nuts??) which IMO would be some of the morons that dont care about the enviroment !

Maybe if the world wasent so fucking HOT, because people listened to (enviro nuts!) I cant get over that, there would be such a bad fire season!


the world is heating up
my only question is , how much destruction before people WAKE UP?


--------------------


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064359 - 11/02/03 06:47 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the fires are not the fault of the environmentalists. the problem is people moving into areas where fire is a natural occurance.

you can't blame environmentalists for trying to preserve the natural environment. sometimes there are droughts or bark beetle infestations and sometimes there are fires. all this is natural. so people should know the risks. it's unfair to blaim "enviro nuts" for your decision to live in a fire prone area.



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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2064362 - 11/02/03 06:57 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I fully agree


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2064364 - 11/02/03 07:04 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Only pseudo-environmentalists are against thinning forrests clogged from overprotection.


--------------------


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: 66% of CA Fuels Reduction Projects Stalled by Enviro Nuts [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2064375 - 11/02/03 07:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"Only pseudo-environmentalists are against thinning forrests clogged from overprotection."

OVER PROTECTION?????????
I am sure there is ALOT of that in america right???
PLEASE america barely HAS forest to be protected


"the environmental extremists really do not care about the welfare of their fellow man. As I stated before, they are consumed with self loathing and contempt for others of their species. Instead of rationally addressing the situation, they would rather see people and their dwellings burned, and human lives destroyed to fulfill their sick fantasies of 'purification of the environment' of the 'scourge of mankind.'"

thats funny
really!

"As I stated before, they are consumed with self loathing and contempt for others of their species."
personally when it comes to a small group of people thats true for me, where its not true for me is .....

"they would rather see people and their dwellings burned, and human lives destroyed to fulfill their sick fantasies of 'purification of the environment' of the 'scourge of mankind.'"


and protecting the enviroment PROTECTs PEOPLE!!!!!

whens the last time you drank water from another planet?????
well????

"Instead of rationally addressing the situation,"
if our culture was rational in anyway, we would have this so many enviromental problems

remember PATHOLOGY is being disconected from the violent act taking place , which is exaclty the way some of us westerners are.

Tree thinning aside(which I am not ALWAYS against)
when history is written western culture will come out looking like a pack of imature , spoiled ,brats that ened up raping the whole world just to make a small ammount of us rich and leave the rest of us with diminished quality of life.

p


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