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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #12175472 -

Vickie Vale in 'Batman' was hot. :naughty:


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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #12181512 -

redtailedhawk said:
Would you guys agree this world is basically a world of suffering or not?




This is a world of indifference. However the creatures in this world experience pleasure and pain.

It is a world of suffering, and of enjoyment

No one has to live it.. but they do


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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12181947 -

Every notice how RTH almost never makes a second post before disappearing back into the void?:lol:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #12182353 -

Not always :wink:

I was just interested in what people think on this issue.

Bye now. :tunnel:


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"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #12182358 -

I thought that might draw you out you little sneak.:cool: I hope you are going to give your conclusions at some point.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12182360 -

Any one born has to live. The only choice we may have is how long.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #12183580 -

Icelander said:
I thought that might draw you out you little sneak.:cool: I hope you are going to give your conclusions at some point.


Okay, you wanted, you got it.

Personally, I do experience this world as a valley of tears, meaning my joy-to-pain ratio is leaning more into the direction of pain and that subjectively colors the world for me as difficult and painful (not always, but often). 

Then again, I really identify with what Stanislav Grof has to say on this and that is that those of us who see the world as a painful and sometimes meaningless place, which is ruled by death and impermanence, are under a spell of deep negative unconscious forces, that colors our view us such and that we can change that by deep inner transformation. Meaning the world is a valley of tears because of our inner pain and that by resolving that pain, the world itself will change for us.

To quote;

Quote:
Grof; Beyond the Brain, page 176-177:Individuals who are under the psychological influence of BPM II typically experience a deep confrontation with death, mortality, and impermanence of material existence. This is accompanied by a deep existential crisis- a sense of the meaninglessness and absurdity of life and a desperate search for meaning… The major mistake of the existential approach is that it generalizes its observations and presents them as universally valid insights about the human condition. From the point of view of deep experiential work, the existential approach is limited to the perinatal level of consciousness and loses its relevance with the experience of ego death and transcendence.

Ultimately, one cannot justify life and find meaning in it by intellectual analysis and the use of logic. One must reach a state in which he or she experiences emotionally and biologically that it is worthwhile to be alive and feels active excitement about the fact of existence. Agonizing philosophical preoccupation with the problem of the meaning [and suffering] of life, instead of  being a legitimate philosophical issue, should be seen as a symptom indicating the dynamic flow of the life process has been obstructed and blocked.The only effective solution of this problem is to be found not in the invention of contrived life goals, but in a profound inner transformation  and shift in consciousness that reinstates the flow of vital energy. A person who is actively engaged in the life process and experiences zest and joy will never question whether life has any meaning. In this state, existence appears to be precious and miraculous, and its value is self-evident.




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"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #12184685 -

I have no problem with this quote. However I would like to point out that that inner transformation is a rare event and my be all but impossible in many to most cases. I would love to see what the success rate actually is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #12186700 -

Wow. That was a cool Grof quote that I'd never read before.
Thanks hawk man


p.s. Icelander, you ever read Stan Grof's stuff?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Kickle]
    #12186732 -

Yes I've read a couple of his books.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #12189816 -

Icelander said:
I have no problem with this quote. However I would like to point out that that inner transformation is a rare event and my be all but impossible in many to most cases. I would love to see what the success rate actually is.


I think the success rate is extremely low. I've spend some time with quite a few people who work with psychedelic medicine quite seriously and some people who practice other similar forms of healing and transformation Grof talks about, and I haven't seen one single person who I would say achieved this level of transformation.

Then again... I did meet and heard of cases where some really fucked up people, achieved great healing and could then live normal and satisfying lives. They haven't become enlightened, but achieved a level of  satisfying recovery.

So I don't think all that Grof talks about is bullshit. Having missed the transformation myself, I sometimes wish it was bullshit though. :tongue:


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: redtailedhawk]
    #12189993 -

I've always felt there was psychological benefit to the psychedelic experience for many. Just not pie in the sky enlightenment nor a complete cure of psychological problems.

Everything seems to get turned into a religion and blown out of proportion. I see this in all walks of life.

I think it comes from our death anxiety and our desire to be more than a human primate animal that will eventually fail, decay and die.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Chronic7]
    #12205017 -

Chronic777 said:
When you go beyond the suffering yourself, then naturally you bring joy into the world
Its not about casting off the world because its dirty & full of suffering
Its about waking up to who you are, then bringing that beauty into the world in inummerable ways

Some say spirituality has no physical benefit so its pointless
I feel it has tremendous physical benefit without even being so 'needy' of the physcial realm, because it brings happiness
Happiness benefits everyone & everything

So yes, this world is a veil of tears, but you wipe away the veil, then smile
As then the world is seen to be none other than your Self


What if "who you are" is a serial axe murderer?


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"It is by no means an irrational fancy that, in a future existence, we shall look upon what we think our present existence, as a dream."
- Edgar Allan Poe

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #12205033 -

Icelander said:
I have no problem with this quote. However I would like to point out that that inner transformation is a rare event and my be all but impossible in many to most cases. I would love to see what the success rate actually is.


So spending an hour each week in a psychologist's office every month will prove to be a waste of time?  No one can recover from their own personal pain?


--------------------
"It is by no means an irrational fancy that, in a future existence, we shall look upon what we think our present existence, as a dream."
- Edgar Allan Poe

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Action Jackson]
    #12205372 -

Action Jackson said:
Icelander said:
I have no problem with this quote. However I would like to point out that that inner transformation is a rare event and my be all but impossible in many to most cases. I would love to see what the success rate actually is.


So spending an hour each week in a psychologist's office every month will prove to be a waste of time?  No one can recover from their own personal pain?



Ask Woody Allen who has been going to a shrink for forty years and still dealing with the same problems. And I don't believe there is ever a complete remission of any psychological problem. And that's what I stated. I never said their couldn't be some improvement.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #12206007 -

Yeah, well Woody Allen is incurably neurotic.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: deCypher]
    #12206085 -

All humans are imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is this world a "vale of tears" or not? [Re: Icelander]
    #12206109 -

Icelander said:
All humans are imo.


Reminds me of: people can't sit still :smirk:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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