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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11931546 -

RogerRabbit said:
Religion is already taught along side science.



not in public schools


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11931554 -

I didn't learn ballet and knitting in the same building either.


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Seuss]
    #11931577 -

Seuss said:
> science is just another form of religion

Not really.  The fundamental tenant of religion is faith.  The fundamental tenant of science is repeatability.  The concept of faith and repeatability are about as opposite from one another as two things can be.



but the layman doesnt repeat science, he repeats what is published by
their high priests, the scientists, taking on faith that what scientists
say is true, often time claiming it as truth even though it's yet
another unproven hypothesis

we can take any set of knowns and derive a theory as to why from
there we can publish a science book or a religious one

37And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods.

38And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink.

39And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11931632 -

Why do you believe that only people who don't understand science are indicative of the limits of science?  The limitation is in the person, not the science. 

The fact that people look for religious meaning in the unlikeliest of places does not equalize all of those places.

Quote:
we can take any set of knowns and derive a theory as to why from
there we can publish a science book or a religious one


Well, you can publish anything these days but unless it gets tested it isn't science.  Religion never gets tested.  That's its nature.


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11931649 -

zappaisgod said:
Why do you believe that only people who don't understand science are indicative of the limits of science?


Why do you believe that only people who dont understand religion are indicative of the limits of religion?

Quote:
Religion never gets tested.  That's its nature.


religious history is tested daily even by science, or at the least the
pseudo sciences we call anthropology and archeology


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11931758 -

Prisoner#1 said:
zappaisgod said:
Why do you believe that only people who don't understand science are indicative of the limits of science?


Why do you believe that only people who dont understand religion are indicative of the limits of religion?


I don't.  I think people who do understand religion are indicative of the limts of religion.
Quote:
Quote:
Religion never gets tested.  That's its nature.


religious history is tested daily even by science, or at the least the
pseudo sciences we call anthropology and archeology


No, the myths get tested.  Some of the stories no doubt have a basis in the real world.  That doesn't make the spaghetti monster any scarier.


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11932222 -

The idea of "peer review" is funny to me too. 

It all depends who reviews it.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11932284 -

zappaisgod said:
That doesn't make the spaghetti monster any scarier.



primordial soup


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Shins]
    #11932308 -

Shins said:
The idea of "peer review" is funny to me too. 

It all depends who reviews it.



often times the peers have no clue what the paper seems to be about, in
some of the 9/11-thermite discussions a paper written one of the 'peers'
was an astronomer, and a couple of them made the comments that it sounds
plausible but they really have no expertise in the field so they dont
really know


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11932448 -

Prisoner#1 said:
RogerRabbit said:
Religion is already taught along side science.



not in public schools


Yes, they do.  I had the misfortune to be stuck in Oklahoma for a few years while my kids were in school.  My daughter came home from 8th grade with a note telling me what version of the bible I had to buy for science class.  The Governor had said that local school districts could chose between evolution or creationism, and the Oklahoma City school she was attending had chosen the latter.

As for faith in science, none of us know it all.  As an electrical engineer, I can put my meter on a wire and read the voltage to know if that wire will electrocute me if I touch it.  That requires 'faith' in my instrument that a religious person may not share, but experience and peer review by thousands of electricians has told me that meter is accurate.  A scientist in another field might use carbon dating to determine the age of an artifact.  I may not understand that process, but I trust those who do based on peer review in that field.  I may not be able to design a suspension bridge, but I drive across them with 'faith' that the engineer who designed it knew what he was doing.  All of the above are peer reviewed. 

I haven't seen any peer reviews of talking snakes and animals, calming a stormy sea with a rod, walking on water or raising the dead, earning 72 virgins by martyrdom, etc.  Those who would compare science and religion as one in the same degrade themselves.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11933472 -

RogerRabbit said:
I had the misfortune to be stuck in Oklahoma for a few years while my kids were in school.  My daughter came home from 8th grade with a note telling me what version of the bible I had to buy for science class.


I grew up in southern public schools, never a mention of god other than
the pledge in my first 5 years, after a lawsuit even that was removed
if this governor made that sort of choice for their schools they;ve
violated the constitution, they've permitted the state to endorse a religion


Quote:
A scientist in another field might use carbon dating to determine the age of an artifact.  I may not understand that process, but I trust those who do based on peer review in that field.


then you should trust that there's no measurable Carbon14 after 50,000
years, all these 100k year old bones they dig up must surely be dated
some other way not to mention that anything that actively takes up
carbon like plants will date far younger and we also have to tak into
account that atmospheric carbon has never remained a constant making
calibration of the equipment more difficult on older items... lots of
room for error, lots of faith required


Quote:
I may not be able to design a suspension bridge, but I drive across them with 'faith' that the engineer who designed it knew what he was doing.  All of the above are peer reviewed.

 

might wanna stock up on faith and get more peers to review that shit, bridges collapse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galloping_Gertie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge
http://www.startribune.com/projects/11608881.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530101,00.html?test=latestnews


Quote:
I haven't seen any peer reviews of talking snakes and animals, calming a stormy sea with a rod, walking on water or raising the dead, earning 72 virgins by martyrdom, etc.  Those who would compare science and religion as one in the same degrade themselves.
RR


http://blog.bible.org/primetimejesus/content/bart-ehrman:-without-peer%E2%80%A6-review


science brings us as many lies as the bible, the IPCC with climate
change in addition to the many other counts of scientific fraud over
the years, maybe it would be best if botanists were not reviewing quantum physics papers

http://briefingroom.typepad.com/the_briefing_room/2009/12/ipcc-peer-review-tantamount-to-fraud-ipcc-official-admits.html

http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-8/iss-6/p12.html

yes... let's all praise the review of peers
Quote:
The peer-review system is supposed to guarantee that published research is carried out in accordance with established scientific standards. Yet recently, an internal report from Lucent Technologies’ Bell Laboratories concluded that data in 16 published papers authored by researcher Hendrik Schön were fraudulent. The papers were reviewed and accepted by several prestigious scientific journals, including Nature, Science, Physical Review, and Applied Physics Letters. Yet, in many of the papers, the fraud was obvious, even to an untrained eye, with data repeated point-for-point and impossibly smooth or noise-free. All the papers passed through internal review at Bell Labs, one of the world’s foremost industrial research institutions, and the journal peer review system without raising alarms. The fraud was discovered only after journal readers started pointing it out.



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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11934298 -

You may note that Mr. Schon is getting his ass kicked all over the place.  What happens to a priest who makes shit up?  Nothing.


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: jimbotron]
    #11934326 -

because conservatives cant use religion to gain voters if science denies it.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: MisterMuscaria]
    #11934350 -

MisterMuscaria said:
because conservatives cant use religion to gain voters if science denies it.


Just how does that make any sense?


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11934365 -

Prisoner#1 said:
then you should trust that there's no measurable Carbon14 after 50,000
years




i will have to request a source on this claim


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Yrat]
    #11934442 -

Yrat said:
Prisoner#1 said:
then you should trust that there's no measurable Carbon14 after 50,000
years




i will have to request a source on this claim


Carbon14 has a half-life of 5,730 years.  After 57,300 years, there will be only (1/2)^10 = 0.0009765625 of the remaining C14, which is getting a little hard to work with.  After 200,000 years, there is 9e-13 remaining, which really is too little to measure.

For samples older than that, other radiometric methods are useful, like uranium/lead and potassium/argon.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating lists several, each with different ages and error ranges.  This is fairly basic quantum with some harder statistics in the mix.

Note that science points out its flaws and computes the amount of those flaws.  Religion doesn't.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11934486 -

urbanfarmer said:
Yrat said:
Prisoner#1 said:
then you should trust that there's no measurable Carbon14 after 50,000
years




i will have to request a source on this claim


Carbon14 has a half-life of 5,730 years.  After 57,300 years, there will be only (1/2)^10 = 0.0009765625 of the remaining C14, which is getting a little hard to work with.  After 200,000 years, there is 9e-13 remaining, which really is too little to measure.





how do you know "it's a little hard to work with"?.  what if a method can accurately measure to 0.0000000001, is 50,000 years so tough then?  the measurement is relative, just because the number becomes small, doesn't mean a measurement will be inaccurate.  you'll have to show the limits of the current methods and techniques, and when their limitations affect the ability to generate accurate data, if you are going to make such claims.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Yrat]
    #11934530 -

Yrat said:
urbanfarmer said:
Yrat said:
Prisoner#1 said:
then you should trust that there's no measurable Carbon14 after 50,000
years




i will have to request a source on this claim


Carbon14 has a half-life of 5,730 years.  After 57,300 years, there will be only (1/2)^10 = 0.0009765625 of the remaining C14, which is getting a little hard to work with.  After 200,000 years, there is 9e-13 remaining, which really is too little to measure.





how do you know "it's a little hard to work with"?.  what if a method can accurately measure to 0.0000000001, is 50,000 years so tough then?  the measurement is relative, just because the number becomes small, doesn't mean a measurement will be inaccurate.  you'll have to show the limits of the current methods and techniques, and when their limitations affect the ability to generate accurate data, if you are going to make such claims.


Because C14 generation in the atmosphere varies by solar radiation, atmospheric makeup, etc.  When the amount of C14 relative to C12 gets small enough it vanishes into the line noise of C14 generation variance.

It's not just amount, it's amount in context.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11934622 -

Quote:
might wanna stock up on faith and get more peers to review that shit, bridges collapse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galloping_Gertie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-35W_Mississippi_River_bridge
http://www.startribune.com/projects/11608881.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530101,00.html?test=latestnews


You found 4 examples out of the the thousands of bridges that exist throughout the world.  What even is your point here?  The reasons why these bridges failed are perfectly understood and follow the laws of physics. 

I'm actually curious as to what you're even arguing about... that religion and science are the same?  The difference should be crystal clear.  If you don't believe something stated by a scientific law, go get an experimental apparatus, test the law, and see for yourself.  Guaranteed, if you go on a bridge and let go of a cinder block, it's going down and not up, and furthermore, it will accelerate at 9.8 m/s^2.  I can even tell you the time it will take to hit the water after you let it go.  Religion does not offer this.  I don't believe that 'God' created two people which started the human species.  Can you prove otherwise?


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No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11934644 -

zappaisgod said:
You may note that Mr. Schon is getting his ass kicked all over the place.  What happens to a priest who makes shit up?  Nothing.


Mr. Schon and many of his colleagues have brought doubt onto the entire
process, at least with fairy tails we know the credibility... seems as
though many scientists need to get butt raped in order to understand
science shouldnt be treated as religion


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