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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Shins]
    #11925870 -

I like discussing the idea of "separation of religion and science" and "separation of religion and state."

I feel that it's almost impossible to do.

I don't think that humans can be perfectly objective.

Science is often based on other science which is based on other science, and you have to have faith that the original science or any other along the way is perfectly flawlessly correct. 

What i mean kind of is;  science can adequately explain what happens,  and perhaps how it happens,  but never FULLY why it happens.

We can observe and measure gravity,  and know roughly how it works and that it's related to mass,  but why is the universe set up like that in the first place?  why don't large masses push away objects instead?

what came before the big bang?

Do you catch my drift? 

science has a use and is a good tool, but it cannot explain everything currently.  there is too much beyond our perception and means to be able to even say for sure scientifically that all the results of science are 100% true.  Everything beyond that is a mystery, and that strive to explain the mystery i believe is what drives priests and scientists alike.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Shins]
    #11925936 -

Shins said:
Science is often based on other science which is based on other science, and you have to have faith that the original science or any other along the way is perfectly flawlessly correct. 





i agree with everything you said except this statement.  science is the observation and analysis of hard, reproducible results.  while there could be debate about the cause of certain results, the results themselves do not change.  therefore, anything developed further and based on said results is not "faith."  as technology and methodology improve with time, one might look back and revise or even entirely rewrite the reasons for certain results, but this does not change the results themselves.  do not confuse hypothesis with fact.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11925947 -

urbanfarmer said:
Quote:
Note that no where does it say "absolute fact" in there.


"absolute fact" is a nonsensical term.




This is one place where is think science fails and religion takes over.  If you cannot prove it absolutely what's the point? It takes faith to believe just like religion. 

Someone said earlier that creation and evolution aren't necessarily opposed,  and i think that point is key.

Just as religion and science don't necessarily have to be opposed neither do i believe they can be.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11925983 -

urbanfarmer said:
There are enormous amounts of proof of our ascent from simpler creatures in our genome.  Read it.



there's plenty of proof that the bible is factual, read it

Quote:
Quote:
so why are we teaching one unproven idea above another


Because although neither may carry the kind of inviolate, immutable proof that the religious demand, one theory is proved sufficiently to be the basis of biology and medicine.  It holds up well to repeated experiments and anyone seeking to work in the life sciences fields have to understand it.  So to answer your question, because one theory works.  The other doesn't.


of course, since humans are primates it makes sense to test drugs on
bunnies and rats because they're practically primates too


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Shins]
    #11926009 -

Shins said:
what came before the big bang?


according to the religion of science... a singularity, too much that's
intangible and unprovable to not be another faith based belief system


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Yrat]
    #11926025 -

Yrat said:
Shins said:
Science is often based on other science which is based on other science, and you have to have faith that the original science or any other along the way is perfectly flawlessly correct. 





i agree with everything you said except this statement.  science is the observation and analysis of hard, reproducible results.  while there could be debate about the cause of certain results, the results themselves do not change.  therefore, anything developed further and based on said results is not "faith."  as technology and methodology improve with time, one might look back and revise or even entirely rewrite the reasons for certain results, but this does not change the results themselves.  do not confuse hypothesis with fact.


I agree with you 99% but there is still room for error, and change in the results from unexpected or uncontrolled things. 

Also,  it assumes that our original perception and ability to observe or analyze is 100% perfect, and that hard results or evidence cannot change in the future or have in the past.

Scientific evidence assumes that science and method is perfect, and that scientists can be perfect, which assumes that humans can be perfect...


Shrooms taught me that perception is not always perfect or static,  thus how can science be?


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Edited by Shins (01/29/10 06:59 PM)

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Shins]
    #11926186 -

Shins said:
urbanfarmer said:
Quote:
Note that no where does it say "absolute fact" in there.


"absolute fact" is a nonsensical term.




This is one place where is think science fails and religion takes over.  If you cannot prove it absolutely what's the point? It takes faith to believe just like religion.


Because you can do things with it?  Science allows you to predict with high accuracy the results of your actions.  Religion doesn't.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11926314 -

Prisoner#1 said:
urbanfarmer said:
There are enormous amounts of proof of our ascent from simpler creatures in our genome.  Read it.



there's plenty of proof that the bible is factual, read it



Which one?  They all differ, so which version and date is the factual one?

Quote:
Quote:
so why are we teaching one unproven idea above another


Because although neither may carry the kind of inviolate, immutable proof that the religious demand, one theory is proved sufficiently to be the basis of biology and medicine.  It holds up well to repeated experiments and anyone seeking to work in the life sciences fields have to understand it.  So to answer your question, because one theory works.  The other doesn't.


of course, since humans are primates it makes sense to test drugs on
bunnies and rats because they're practically primates too


Compared to, say, arthopods, yes.  And we get an increasing accuracy in tests from rats and bunnies on up to monkeys, chimps, and finally humans.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: jimbotron]
    #11926691 -

Yes, that's right: kneecapping biological research was a good thing to some people. Jesus

:lol:


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come together

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: AnastomosisJihad]
    #11926918 -

Why are liberals scientist and conservatives non-scientists?


It has to do with differences in the way people conceive of truth. The scientific mode is one of questioning, skepticism, investigation, and willingness to change beliefs when prompted by evidence. Embracing a constantly developing world view is essential to the scientific attitude. 


The religious mode of thinking is centered on ultimate truths. Absolute truth is at the center of the web of beliefs for conservatives. Peripheral beliefs attain truth by connecting back to the source of all truth at the center. When a central truth is challenged, people with this mode of thinking often feel threatened. Central truths must be defended, because without them the whole construct of belief might collapse.

Scientist and liberals know that the center does not hold. What we call true today will be called false tomorrow. Science is progressive; it looks forward to new discoveries. Religion is regressive; it looks back to past revelations. Liberals are progressive; they look forward to a better future. Conservatives look back to the good old days.


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come together

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Yrat]
    #11927070 -

Yrat said:
the "theory" argument irks me more than any other argument "against" evolution, for it requires an assumption that creationism is NOT theory in itself.

evolution may be a theory, but it is a PROVEN theory.  do you know how antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria have come about?  evolution.  do you realize that the countless shapes/sizes/colors of dogs that man has domesticated from wolves also represent evolution?  of course, in this case it was man-made selection and not natural selection changing the organism, but to deny that such selective pressures can not exist in a natural environment is embarrassingly ignorant. 




Your examples demonstrate evolution of phenotype expression; they are in no way indicative of speciation. If a dog and wolf get to humping, they's making sumptin.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: urbanfarmer]
    #11927351 -

urbanfarmer said:
Prisoner#1 said:
urbanfarmer said:
There are enormous amounts of proof of our ascent from simpler creatures in our genome.  Read it.


there's plenty of proof that the bible is factual, read it



Which one?  They all differ, so which version and date is the factual one?


well it's already sounding like religion and science are the same, a
dozen theories on the origins of life just as there's dozens of theories
on evolution... yes, more than just darwin's thoughts


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11927411 -

Quote:
did you even read my post?  evolution does not, in any way, describe the origin of life, only how life changes over time.  note the intent in Darwin's title, "the origin of species."  as in, how species, as we see them today, came to be.  NOT how life came to be


Actually evolution does claim to address the issue of the origin of life its self. It is based on the theory of molecular evolution, as a biologist I'm amazed you don't know this.

As for evolution being just a theory this is ridiculous, it is nothing more than semantics. Did you know that gravity is only a theory? Jump off a building and see if god saves you from this theory. The theory of relativity is just that, a theory. Have you ever had a bacterial or viral infection? Do you realize that the germ theory of disease is "just" a theory. Go screw a Haitian drug addict with AIDS and see what the hell happens, it's just a theory though.

One thing that has always irritated me is the Christians belief of the "god of the gaps". This meaning that whenever there is some unknown in the universe as a whole, biology, geology, anthropology, etc. it is always attributed to God. Having difficulty finding transitional forms in the fossil record? Must be God. Why is the universe expanding and accelerating? Yep, its God. This isn't just a phenomenon with Christians, but with nearly all religions, well maybe not scientologists, I think aliens will save them from god.

One also doesn't have to be an iconoclast to practice in the field of science, it is just a waste of time. In college I went to listen to Richard Dawkins speak. It was a complete letdown. The great majority of his presentation dealt with his ongoing issues with Christianity. He did everything possible to not speak about evolutionary biology, instead insisting on refuting everything concerning religion.  Religion and science need not be mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Your examples demonstrate evolution of phenotype expression; they are in no way indicative of speciation. If a dog and wolf get to humping, they's making sumptin.

Obviously, it also is indicative of a change in the genome, there are plenty of examples of interspecific hybrids.

To come full circle who gives a shit whom eats trans fat? what business is it of yours or anyone elses? I can guarantee those in congress (the ones that tell us how worried about our health) that attempting to engage in illicit homosexual sex in an airport bathroom, potentially eating another mans semen is far more dangerous than eating a trans fat laden twinkie. But I guess they know best.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Therian]
    #11928579 -

falcon said:
Yrat said:
the "theory" argument irks me more than any other argument "against" evolution, for it requires an assumption that creationism is NOT theory in itself.

evolution may be a theory, but it is a PROVEN theory.  do you know how antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria have come about?  evolution.  do you realize that the countless shapes/sizes/colors of dogs that man has domesticated from wolves also represent evolution?  of course, in this case it was man-made selection and not natural selection changing the organism, but to deny that such selective pressures can not exist in a natural environment is embarrassingly ignorant. 




Your examples demonstrate evolution of phenotype expression; they are in no way indicative of speciation. If a dog and wolf get to humping, they's making sumptin.



of course, but it is the identical phenomena that leads to speciation if the separate phenotypic populations are separated long enough that their genomes eventually change enough to become incompatible.  wolves have been domesticated to dogs over the course of what, probably something like 10,000 years?  this is a blink of the eye in geologic terms.  give it another 200k, and i'm sure wolves and some types of dogs would not be able to successfully produce viable, fertile offspring, meaning they have become distinct and separate species. 

Therian said:
Quote:
did you even read my post?  evolution does not, in any way, describe the origin of life, only how life changes over time.  note the intent in Darwin's title, "the origin of species."  as in, how species, as we see them today, came to be.  NOT how life came to be


Actually evolution does claim to address the issue of the origin of life its self. It is based on the theory of molecular evolution, as a biologist I'm amazed you don't know this.




molecular evolution does indeed try to explain the forms and functional systems of early single-celled life, and how it might have originated (key word being might), but it still can not explain the emergence of life itself from inanimate matter, only that life as we know it today came from these early progenitor cells.  i stand by my statement.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Shins]
    #11928829 -

Shins said:
Lol,  the theory of evolution is a theory, not fact.  That's why they call it the "theory of evolution."



I assume you mean as opposed to the garden of eden, the talking snake and the jealous god who knew if Adam ate from the forbidden fruit he would be just like 'us'(Genesis 3:22), meaning man would become one of the many gods? 

Religion is already taught along side science.  Science, math, physics, etc., are taught in schools and the talking snake theory is taught at church.  This has nothing to do with liberal vs conservative.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11929132 -

Actually scientists do not call anything the Theory of Evolution.  Evolution is an observable fact.  What is theory is Natural Selection.

Science is not religion.  Science is a method.  Religion is not a method.  It is a set of conclusions.  Scientific method may generate conclusions but it is not a set of conclusions itself.  Further, it is testable.  Religion is not testable.


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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11929344 -



--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11929885 -

> science is just another form of religion

Not really.  The fundamental tenant of religion is faith.  The fundamental tenant of science is repeatability.  The concept of faith and repeatability are about as opposite from one another as two things can be.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: Seuss]
    #11930067 -

Agreed. Science is fluid, always changing.  A scientist has the discipline to change his beliefs when his theories prove to be incorrect.  Religion is stationary, not changing, rigid.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Why is science a liberal enterprise? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11930442 -

OP amended to replace bullshit box-o-gas theory with Mercury-Venus paradox. I feel 20 IQ points dumber, but then I passed physics by the skin of my teeth.

Pleased to see the old creationist 'argument by dictionary' popping up here, i.e. "Gravity is just a theory!" Perhaps this has something to do with the Rapture.

Quote:
Well, the jury is still out on evolution, you know.

-George W. Bush

:curbyourenthusiasm:



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