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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: z@z.com]
    #3828775 -

z@z.com said:
What exactly haven't I been paying attention to that allows the federal government to violate its charter? Is there an amendment I missed somewhere?


No, but if federal government was wiped clean of all unconstitutional acts, there would be at least 100 amendments swiftly passed.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: Gijith]
    #3828953 -

Gijith said:
No, but if federal government was wiped clean of all unconstitutional acts, there would be at least 100 amendments swiftly passed.


So what exactly is your point? Does that somehow justify the violation of the constitution?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: z@z.com]
    #3829320 -

Wait. The article mentioned is followed by the government, exclusive rights are granted to scientists for their discoveries. Im not sure what the point is.

As for funding, i don't believe the government needs a specific constitutional right to fund science but i may be wrong.

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: Catalysis]
    #3829395 -

Catalysis said:
As for funding, i don't believe the government needs a specific constitutional right to fund science but i may be wrong.


Quote:
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.



--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: z@z.com]
    #3829753 -

z@z.com said:
Gijith said:
No, but if federal government was wiped clean of all unconstitutional acts, there would be at least 100 amendments swiftly passed.


So what exactly is your point? Does that somehow justify the violation of the constitution?


My point is clearly stated. And no.

:cheers:


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: Gijith]
    #3829812 -

I'm a little slow today. Stupid painkillers combined with severe pain.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3829893 -

Ancalagon said:
From your signature:
Quote:
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


Do the nature of this post and the signature quote seem mutually exclusive to anyone else?

Someone find me where in the Constitution the Federal Government is authorized to fund scientific research with my tax dollars.

Hint: Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 is no good. Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;


real science isnt political. It's the observation and collecting of facts. No one can argue its against their opinions. Its just like the fuckwits who dont believe dinosaurs are real, or that evolution happened. It doesnt matter what they believe because it is fact.

That quote is referring to OPINIONS.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #3831537 -

Quote:
This may come as a surprise to you, but the constitution is the charter of the federal government. It is a compact between the states establishing


thank you for that lesson on the constitution, but it appears you misread my post.

Quote:
The same logic that you use


stop right there. what logic are you talking about? did you think I was justifying the federal government acting in ways not specifically spelled out in the constitution?
re-read my post. I think you misinterpreted it.

my point was that arguments of this type: "where does it say in the constitution..." are weak because, if you've been paying attention to history, you'll know that it can apply to just about anything the federal government does. it's not a particularly effective argument against science funding, or anything else for that matter.

why single out science funding? where does it say in the constitution that the government can prohibit drug use? where does it say that the government can fund medical research or the space program? where does it say that the government can regulate the pharmaceutical industry? where does it say that the government can regulate pollution? see what I mean? that argument is a cop-out. it's a convenient catch-all argument against anything government does. no thinking required.

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #3832029 -

Quote:
why single out science funding?


Because that is what is being discussed in this thread. Feel free to start a thread regarding one of the other topics you mentioned and I will be glad to single them out as well. To say 'the constitution argument' is a cop-out because 'look at 200+ years of American history, etc' is assinine. I can just as easily tell you (or be told myself) to never denounce another war -- I mean cmon, just look at the past 50 years of history, it's a cop-out...


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Bush stifles science, gee what did you expect? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3834279 -

Quote:
Ancalagon said:To say 'the constitution argument' is a cop-out because 'look at 200+ years of American history, etc' is assinine.


it's not really a constitutional argument (the supreme court has already ruled that Article I, Section 8, Clause 18 of the constitution gives the federal government powers beyond what is specified in the constitution), it's a rhetorical argument - it's an argument to undermine the entire enterprise of the federal government, because, as was pointed out, 99% of what the federal government does can be considered "unconstitutional". an argument that can apply to almost anything is almost worthless.

that's why I asked "why single out science funding?". the argument isn't against science funding per se, it's against the existence of the federal government itself. now don't get me wrong - I don't think it would be a bad thing if the federal government's powers were truly limited to what is specified in the constitution, but I think that's wishful thinking - governments just don't get smaller - that's a universal rule of governments.


Prosgeopax,
pointing out a flawed argument does not mean that I support the opposite position.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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