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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... *DELETED*
    #11755720 -

Post deleted by Annapurna1

Reason for deletion: none



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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11756181 -

Quote:
dick cheney (apparently the de facto final authourity on the subject) ...


According to whom? Just who is it you believe anointed a former Vice President the final authority on the subject? Or any subject, for that matter?

Quote:
...argues that there should be none..


Bullshit. Provide a credible source to support this nonsensical assertion.

Quote:
.. that we must in effect become a gestapo state (not cheneys' exact words)...


No shit these are not his exact words. Or even his implication. Again, let's have some source which supports this paranoid delusional fantasy.

Quote:
but cheneys' approach is clearly too dangerous..


Assuming this insanely contorted parody of his position were in fact his actual position (and it isn't, but since your post so far bears not the slightest resemblance to actual reality I assume the rest of us are allowed to pretend for a while, too) for the sake of argument, in what way specifically would such an approach be "too dangerous"?

Quote:
...despite its popularity..


Popular with whom? Please inform the audience:

- with whom, specifically,  do you believe this approach to be popular?
- where can a credible source which supports this belief of yours be found?

Quote:
...tragically...


Why do you characterize as tragic the (yet to be demonstrated) "fact" that this approach is too dangerous?

Quote:
..the american ppl are still going to demand torture...


Some will. Some won't. But they are going to demand tougher interrogation techniques than reading crotch bombers the Miranda mantra and providing them free defense attorneys. The American people also know full well that actual torture is seldom if ever required. So far it hasn't been. As a perfect example, the lesser techniques used on KSM and his two compatriots were sufficient, and those three were the hardest of the hard cases. The rest of them sang like canaries long before anything which could realistically be described as approaching torture ever entered the picture.

Quote:
one key point on which i disagree with dershowitz..however..is that i dont believe that one form of torture is more morally acceptable than another...as such..once the warrant is issued..then any form of torture should be permitted...


Where does Dershowitz say that any form should be permitted? I don't see him advocating, for example, the amputation of appendages or tongues, despite the ubiquity of such legal procedures in the countries of birth of many terrorists. Having had occasion to ram objects very like sharp needles under a couple of my fingernails over the five-plus decades of my life, I can assure you that, though indubitably painful, such injuries are far from permanent. They heal rather rapidly, in fact.

Quote:
another problem is that a warrants system by itself still does not preclude the use of torture for purely political purposes..


Don't be disingenuous. This is an absurd charge to make. Why would a judge issue a warrant of this nature - the gravest possible type of warrant a judge is likely ever to be charged with issuing - unless he were thoroughly convinced the requirements as outlined by Dershowitz had been amply demonstrated? In what possible way would a rational person  view obtaining information to stop another 9/11 (for example) as a political ploy?

Quote:
..although it does protect innocent ppl from torture for purely political purposes...


But it doesn't protect guilty people from it? Is that what you are trying to say? Again, are you honestly saying you see preventing a terrorist attack as some kind of political shenanigans?

Quote:
..additional provisions will be needed to prevent such abuses..


What abuses? Conning a judge into issuing a warrant allowing government agents to torture a guilty person for.... for what, exactly?

Quote:
...and im not sure what they would be off the top of my head...


That's because there are no such provisions. Either there is compelling reason to believe the guy is in possession of that crucial information or there isn't. If the judge can be convinced he does hold the info, the government is given the green light to extract it. If the judge cannot be convinced, then the green light is withheld. What more do you want?

Quote:
i still oppose the use of torture under any circumstances..


No, you'd prefer to see San Francisco vaporized in a nuclear blast so you can preen about your "moral integrity". We get that. We got it long ago. But that's because you don't live in San Francisco.

Quote:
..but the american ppl wont accept that..


To their credit.

Quote:
..do we torture ppl arbitrarily..


Either you honestly haven't the faintest idea what "arbitrarily" means or you are being deliberately obtuse. Which would you prefer the audience to go with?

Quote:
...if we are to choose the latter..then we must do so before the repugs recapture congress in november...


Why? Why does it matter whether such legislation is passed by a Dem-majority congress or a Repub-majority congress? I thought your concern was to keep political ploys out of this area.






Phred


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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Phred]
    #11756592 -

im not even going to bother with your laughable attempts to spin cheneys' well-known and documented positions on these issues...

Quote:
Quote:
one key point on which i disagree with dershowitz..however..is that i dont believe that one form of torture is more morally acceptable than another...as such..once the warrant is issued..then any form of torture should be permitted...


Where does Dershowitz say that any form should be permitted? I don't see him advocating, for example, the amputation of appendages or tongues, despite the ubiquity of such legal procedures in the countries of birth of many terrorists. Having had occasion to ram objects very like sharp needles under a couple of my fingernails over the five-plus decades of my life, I can assure you that, though indubitably painful, such injuries are far from permanent. They heal rather rapidly, in fact.


dershowitz thinks that there should be limits on which tortures are permitted...but i dont favour any such limits.. because OT1H..i believe that all torture is equally immoral.. while OTOH..the torturers will inevitably argue that they must go over the limit in order to get the information..which leads down a slippery slope...its better to avoid that morass altogether and allow everything right off the bat...

Quote:
Quote:
another problem is that a warrants system by itself still does not preclude the use of torture for purely political purposes..


Don't be disingenuous. This is an absurd charge to make. Why would a judge issue a warrant of this nature - the gravest possible type of warrant a judge is likely ever to be charged with issuing - unless he were thoroughly convinced the requirements as outlined by Dershowitz had been amply demonstrated? In what possible way would a rational person  view obtaining information to stop another 9/11 (for example) as a political ploy?

Quote:
..although it does protect innocent ppl from torture for purely political purposes...


But it doesn't protect guilty people from it? Is that what you are trying to say? Again, are you honestly saying you see preventing a terrorist attack as some kind of political shenanigans?



your missing the point ..even if the legal requirements have been met and the warrant issued (ie the subject is "guilty")..the torturers could still be free to torture to political ends...an officer may be appointed by the court to monitor the interrogation so as to prevent such willful misconduct.. but even then..the distinction between intelligence information and political shenanigans is not necessarily that clear either...

Quote:
Why would a judge issue a warrant of this nature - the gravest possible type of warrant a judge is likely ever to be charged with issuing - unless he were thoroughly convinced the requirements as outlined by Dershowitz had been amply demonstrated?


the statute must be worded such that the warrant can only be issued under those conditions (below)...a decent judge fully understands the gravity of a torture warrant.. but the same cannot be said about a bu$hco hack like jay bybee..who is now sitting on the 9th circuit court...

Quote:
Quote:
...if we are to choose the latter..then we must do so before the repugs recapture congress in november...


Why? Why does it matter whether such legislation is passed by a Dem-majority congress or a Repub-majority congress? I thought your concern was to keep political ploys out of this area.


because bu$hco didnt listen to dershowitz when he wrote that link.. and theres no reason to believe that their shills would behave any differently when they control congress.. but if they did..then they would make the evidence bar practically nonexistent...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (01/03/10 01:53 AM)

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11756830 -

Quote:
im not even going to bother with your laughable attempts to spin cheneys' well-known and documented positions on these issues...


So, as the informed readers of this thread knew all along, you can't support your bullshit claims. Gee, how surprising!

Quote:
..even if the legal requirements have been met and the warrant issued (ie the subject is "guilty")..the torturers could still be free...


Says who?

Quote:
... to torture to political ends...


Why would they? For what purpose? What would be their incentive for prolonging the session once they had extracted the information necessary to thwart the planned attack?

When you're done answering that, give us a specific example of what you consider to be a "political end".

Quote:
but even then..the distinction between intelligence information and political shenanigans is not necessarily that clear either...


Of course it is clear. Stop this weasel-worded fumbling around and give us a specific example of such an "unclear" situation.

Quote:
because bu$hco didnt listen to dershowitz when he wrote that link..


Who was in charge of writing legislation when Dershowitz advanced this proposal? Why... Congress was. How come no Democrat in congress in January of 2002 introduced a bill based on Dershowitz's recommendation? Why... because Demco didn't listen to Dershowitz when he wrote that "link".

Quote:
.. and theres no reason to believe that their shills would behave any differently when they control congress..


Demco has controlled Congress since the 2006 elections, duh. Still waiting for a Dem to introduce a bill based on Dershowitz's recommendation....

...waiting...



...still waiting...




Phred


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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Phred]
    #11757557 -

im going to respond to your delusional pro-cheney idolizing with a couple of lynx..which i dont expect you to even read ..

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/01/how-cheney-made-america-a-torture-nation.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/us/02detain.html

Quote:
Who was in charge of writing legislation when Dershowitz advanced this proposal? Why... Congress was. How come no Democrat in congress in January of 2002 introduced a bill based on Dershowitz's recommendation? Why... because the repugs still controlled congress Demco didn't listen to Dershowitz when he wrote that "link".

Quote:
    .. and theres no reason to believe that their shills would behave any differently when they control congress..



Demco has controlled Congress since the 2006 elections, duh. Still waiting for a Dem to introduce a bill based on Dershowitz's recommendation....



anybody less ignorant than yourself knows why demco could not have passed such legislation while bu$hco still owned the govt.. or why they (however foolishly) have not found it necessary to do so since obama suspended the torture programme (in word if not in deed)...im only suggesting that demco act before the next administration officially reinstates it...

in the meantime..im putting your ass back on ignore...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11758645 -

Quote:
im going to respond to your delusional pro-cheney idolizing with a couple of lynx..which i dont expect you to even read ..


You bet your ass I'm not going to bother even clicking a link to Excitable Andy. The man is demonstrably insane therefore his opinions are worth squat.  I'd get more legitimate information at Rense.com or Alex Jones than from Andrew Sullivan. As for that New York TImes link you have presented here before, I will point out again what I and so many others pointed out the last time you posted it - the actual content of that link provides exactly zero support for your absurd assertion.

Quote:
anybody less ignorant than yourself knows why demco could not have passed such legislation while bu$hco still owned the govt..


I noted that not only did no Dem call for a vote on such a bill, but that no Dem even bothered to draft and introduce such a bill. As for passing it, why on earth do you believe Republican congressmen would vote against a bill legalizing the use of torture? Your whole schtick has been for freaking years now that the eeevil "Repugs" (or Repoops or Rethugs or whatever other cute phrase you are fixated on this month) are just straining at the leash to torture folks.

Quote:
...im only suggesting that demco act before the next administration officially reinstates it...


So you are trying to convince us the Republicans would have voted against such a measure the last time they held a majority in Congress (pre-2006), but will vote for the same measure the next time they hold a majority (2010).

Would you care to explain your rationale behind this?

Quote:
in the meantime..im putting your ass back on ignore...


Imagine my heartbreak.





Phred


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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11759452 -

Annapurna1 said:
in the meantime..im putting your ass back on ignore...


Please don't do that. It's fun watching him so easily make you look so moronic.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11759463 -

some things never change!!:thumbup:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11759520 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Annapurna1 said:
in the meantime..im putting your ass back on ignore...


Please don't do that. It's fun watching him so easily make you look so moronic.


As long as Phred doesn't put her on ignore we'll still get the lulz.


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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11760405 -

zappaisgod said:
luvdemshrooms said:
Annapurna1 said:
in the meantime..im putting your ass back on ignore...


Please don't do that. It's fun watching him so easily make you look so moronic.


As long as Phred doesn't put her on ignore we'll still get the lulz.


True, but it's much more satisfying knowing she's steaming over the accuracy of his statements.

I bet I'm one of the 5 she has on ignore.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11760430 -

I always thought that being ignored from a Libbie was kind of like a badge of honor.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11760437 -

You know, it really is a shame that there is no way to tell who is ignoring you.  There are way too many potential lulz.


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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #11760441 -

Innvertigo said:
I always thought that being ignored from a Libbie was kind of like a badge of honor.


Well, it is. Pissing them off is more fun though.

Although, she's too easy. In all sorts of ways. :wink:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11760449 -

zappaisgod said:
You know, it really is a shame that there is no way to tell who is ignoring you.  There are way too many potential lulz.


It is a shame.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11760539 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Innvertigo said:
I always thought that being ignored from a Libbie was kind of like a badge of honor.


Well, it is. Pissing them off is more fun though.

Although, she's too easy. In all sorts of ways. :wink:


she's been crazy from the day she/he got here, I don't debate her/him but I do enjoy watching Phred do it.  I give him credit, I don't have the patience nor the will to constantly repeat myself.  I don't Ignore anyone because you're right, some times confrontation is more fun:thumbup:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #11760986 -

>> I don't have the patience nor the will to constantly repeat myself.

theres a name for ppl like that ..their called "trolls"...nor does phreds' repeating his bullshit ad nauseam make it true either...

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11761020 -

Annapurna1 said:
>> I don't have the patience nor the will to constantly repeat myself.

theres a name for ppl like that ..their called "trolls"...nor does phreds' repeating his bullshit ad nauseam make it true either...


Now that is a fucking laugh riot considering that this is a repost of a thread in which you have already been thoroughly pantsed by not just Phred but several others, myself included.  Who's a troll?  You's a troll.


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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11761052 -

Dershowtiz is (still) a piece of shit (repost).


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The labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner than the listless voluptuary that enjoys its fruits

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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: llama farmer]
    #11761061 -

No.  Thanks for your trenchant legal analysis.  I'm sure it is all you are capable of.  Shouldn't you be milking about now?  The llamas will be getting sore teats.


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Re: alan dershowitzs' torture warrants (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #11761121 -

Annapurna1 said:
>> I don't have the patience nor the will to constantly repeat myself.

theres a name for ppl like that ..their called "trolls"...nor does phreds' repeating his bullshit ad nauseam make it true either...


If the Liberals were telling us that the sky was brown and Dick Cheney said that the sky was blue you'd argue until you passed out that Dick Cheney was manipulating the sky's colors as to fool the general public into just thinking that it's blue to control them.  I think that you must be a very lonely person


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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