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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)...
    #5408018 - 03/16/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

before you vote..bear in mind that the conditions in both places named below are identical...the difference is that in one you will be killed or allowed to die..whereas in the other those conditions could be maintained indefinitely (and a conscious effort made to do so)...
would you rather go guantanamo or auschwitz?...
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (03/16/06 12:07 PM) to (No end specified)
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5408083 - 03/16/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

conditions at guantanamo identical to conditions at auschwitz?

give me a fucking break.










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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5408087 - 03/16/06 12:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
before you vote..bear in mind that the conditions in both places named below are identical...



False


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5408783 - 03/16/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
conditions at guantanamo identical to conditions at auschwitz?

give me a fucking break.













no..i guess they cant be the same..if ones in colour and the other B/W...and do you really think the nazis allowed those pics to circulate??...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePrajna
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5408818 - 03/16/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't agree that they are the same, as nothing is ever the same.

However it is absouloutly TRUE, that many in guantanimo have attempted to kill themselves through starvation and been force fed through tubes inserted into thier stomaches...(while conscience)... in an effort to keep them alive.

It's my opinion that this is done so that the comparison cannot be made between THIS "prison" camp, and those of the nazi's...

Some of these people...(kept without trial or oversight of any reasonable kind)...LONG for death...but are FORCED to stay alive, without trial and without hope...

SHAME ON EVERYONE who lets this sort of brutality take place in modern society.

The attitude that is prevalent in American today society is the EXACT attitude that led to a regime such as Hitlers to exist in the first place...

Think about it, and do the research, please...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Prajna]
    #5409051 - 03/16/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Prajna, answer a question honestly for me, please.

If the authorities at Guantanamo were to let prisoners who choose to stop eating starve themselves to death, would you denounce or applaud their (the authorities, that is) decision?



Phred


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5409114 - 03/16/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
before you vote..bear in mind that the conditions in both places named below are identical...



Wow. Hey look everybody, its cute liberal over exageration! Good times for all. And Im sure Bush is like Hitler right, Guantanamo is a fucking joke compared to Auschwitz.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: TheCow]
    #5409184 - 03/16/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Club Gitmo


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: TheCow]
    #5409909 - 03/16/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Guantanamo is a fucking joke compared to Auschwitz.




that sounds like the guy on the train telling everyone that they were going to a "family camp"...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5409956 - 03/16/06 07:46 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
Quote:

Guantanamo is a fucking joke compared to Auschwitz.




that sounds like the guy on the train telling everyone that they were going to a "family camp"...



:wtf:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5410013 - 03/16/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Just out of curiousity, did you get that mostly harmless thing from Goldeneye?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: TheCow]
    #5410046 - 03/16/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Just out of curiousity, did you get that mostly harmless thing from Goldeneye?



No, it's from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5410196 - 03/16/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Anna, this might be your worst thread, and that's saying a lot.

I've read a bit about both places. Neither is a haven, for sure. But Auschwitz is in an entirely different league of human suffering.

The only way in which gitmo could possibly be considered worse is the isolation factor. Truly cruel punishment.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Gijith]
    #5410215 - 03/16/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Second girl from the left at the bottom of pic four is pretty cute.


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OfflinePrajna
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Phred]
    #5410282 - 03/16/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ph red said:
Prajna, answer a question honestly for me, please.

If the authorities at Guantanamo were to let prisoners who choose to stop eating starve themselves to death, would you denounce or applaud their (the authorities, that is) decision?



Phred




Hey Phred,

It's a good point.

I know where you're going with this...and you know as well as I do that if any HAD starved themselves to death, I would be the first person on this board to scream bloody murder about it...

However, I think it's a lose-lose situation...

I don't object to keeping these people there, only to the WAY that they are kept there.

I have that ability to "put myself in their shoes", an emotion called compassion...and it's telling me that it is just WRONG to cage another human being without presenting some sort of evidence of their wrongdoing to the public in general...

It's not that I don't believe in punishment for criminal acts, it's that I believe that "human rights" are being attacked by this venture.

As an American under your own constitution, you should be an example to the entire WORLD on how people SHOULD act toward each other, you know, LIBERTY, JUSTICE, FREEDOM, RIGHTS TO A FAIR TRIAL BY PEERS... all that high moral stuff that you preach...

If you guys actually practiced what you preached then I wouldn't even care about the issue. Because I would be content that these people had been tried on evidence by their peers and were guilty of some crime.

Truth is though, the Americans have not extended the AWESOME principals behind the constitution to the situation in Guantanamo, and have instead chosen to treat other HUMAN BEINGS like animals...

My GOD will not let this injustice sit well on my conscience...

So no I would not be happy either way...

As long as I can imagine even a possibility of an innocent man, crying over his son or daughter that he misses, in a prison with no trials or hope, then I will always think that those who jail him are evil...

I like to think it's because I am a compassionate human being...


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Gijith]
    #5410920 - 03/17/06 12:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Auschwitz is in an entirely different league of human suffering.




you dont know that any more than i do...ill repeat my earlier post ..there is not enough information coming out of gunatanamo to prove or disprove your statement...however..auschwitz was the classic example of the "not enough information" scenario..and evidence from abu ghraib and other sites points in this direction...


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5410930 - 03/17/06 12:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

there is not enough information coming out of gunatanamo to prove or disprove your statement...



Are you suggesting that we don't know whether or not millions of Arabs are being taken from their homes, poisoned, and then buried in mass graves?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5411370 - 03/17/06 05:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for fixing the poll... I understand this one.  :smile:


It is an incorrect claim that conditions within guantanamo and auschwitz are identical.  Because of this, the poll is fairly meaningless.  However, if I had to make a choice, I would choose guantanamo over aushwitz without hesitation.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5411434 - 03/17/06 05:58 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

there is not enough information coming out of gunatanamo to prove or disprove your statement...

yeah, maybe guantanamo bay is secretly as bad as auschwitz. maybe there's a whole secret underground area hidden from outside eyes where prisoners are starved, worked, and frozen to death, where they are subjected to cruel and bizarre medical experiments. maybe they are constantly surrounded by death. maybe there is even a secret genocide program there.

is there any evidence to support such notions? if yes, let's have it. if no, why do you believe this to be the case anyway? do you normally believe things for which there is not a shred of evidence?


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Edited by wilshire (03/17/06 06:11 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5411797 - 03/17/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
do you normally believe things for which there is not a shred of evidence? 



Do you really have to ask? :smirk:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5412129 - 03/17/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

:shake:


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OfflinePrajna
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5412161 - 03/17/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This thread is stupid, and taking away from the importance of the issue...sorry anna, but comparing Auschwitz and Guantanamo isn't helpful here.

The real issue is whether or not it's right, or legal, or should even exist at all, not how much it looks or doesn't look like Auschwitz...

Just because it doesn't currently have the level of brutality that the world saw in Auschwitz doesn't make it right....


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Prajna]
    #5412203 - 03/17/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prajna said:
This thread is stupid, and taking away from the importance of the issue...sorry anna, but comparing Auschwitz and Guantanamo isn't helpful here.

The real issue is whether or not it's right, or legal, or should even exist at all, not how much it looks or doesn't look like Auschwitz...

Just because it doesn't currently have the level of brutality that the world saw in Auschwitz doesn't make it right....




:eek:
That's all i gotta say.
:eek:

EDIT: Hey it looks like a weiner.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (03/17/06 10:47 AM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Prajna]
    #5412242 - 03/17/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Prajna said:
This thread is stupid, and taking away from the importance of the issue...sorry anna, but comparing Auschwitz and Guantanamo isn't helpful here.

The real issue is whether or not it's right, or legal, or should even exist at all, not how much it looks or doesn't look like Auschwitz...

Just because it doesn't currently have the level of brutality that the world saw in Auschwitz doesn't make it right....




:thumbup:


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5413414 - 03/17/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
there is not enough information coming out of gunatanamo to prove or disprove your statement...

yeah, maybe guantanamo bay is secretly as bad as auschwitz. maybe there's a whole secret underground area hidden from outside eyes where prisoners are starved, worked, and frozen to death, where they are subjected to cruel and bizarre medical experiments. maybe they are constantly surrounded by death. maybe there is even a secret genocide program there.

is there any evidence to support such notions? if yes, let's have it. if no, why do you believe this to be the case anyway? do you normally believe things for which there is not a shred of evidence?




first of all..there is much evidence from other sites..most notably abu ghraib..that points in this general direction... there are many guantanamos and abu ghraibs..all more or less the same...

second of all..contrary to your claim..i strongly suspect that prisoners are *not* secretly being executed..but quite the opposite ..in the US version..conditions comparable to auschwitz are maintained until a prisoner is near death..at which point..(s)he is then (painfully) restored to sufficient health to begin the whole cycle all over again...this forces the prisoners to endure conditions that typically caused death within a few days at auschwitz..for the remainder of their natural lives...

third of all..anyone that thinks that the level of brutality that exists in our gulags is any less than it was in theirs is sadly mistaken..and if the above is true..then it is arguably even worse...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5413464 - 03/17/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Ah yes, the dreaded naked pile and the loathsome panties on the head torture. Few make it back alive and none unscathed. Oh, the humanity. Did I forget to mention the evil unelectrified wires?

Behold the lunacy of the moonbat in its native habitat. See how it barks at the slightest exposure to sanity. Look closely friends, it is truly an endangered species as it has no hope of reproducing. Its ranks can only be replenished through unnatural processes. Truly, it can only exist in an environment that it detests.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5413734 - 03/17/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

How can you compare guantanamo to auschwitz?


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: downforpot]
    #5413822 - 03/17/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Me?


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5413880 - 03/17/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

all those that do.


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5414205 - 03/17/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Ah yes, the dreaded naked pile and the loathsome panties on the head torture. Few make it back alive and none unscathed. Oh, the humanity. Did I forget to mention the evil unelectrified wires?

Behold the lunacy of the moonbat in its native habitat. See how it barks at the slightest exposure to sanity. Look closely friends, it is truly an endangered species as it has no hope of reproducing. Its ranks can only be replenished through unnatural processes. Truly, it can only exist in an environment that it detests.




the dreaded panty-on-the-head torture...yeah right..and the next thing youll tell the audience is that those ppl in the B/W photos were in a dieting camp...your virtual parroting of the nazi toadys for their gulags should also be telling ..the toadys sound the same because their toadying the same thing..which only a true moonbat could call "sanity"...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (03/17/06 07:31 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415436 - 03/18/06 09:41 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


third of all..anyone that thinks that the level of brutality that exists in our gulags is any less than it was in theirs is sadly mistaken..and if the above is true..then it is arguably even worse...




So, where are all the execution chambers and heinous medical and scientific experiments?


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5415633 - 03/18/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

next time..read the whole post before you quote the last sentance...t think youll find the answers to both questions in the 2nd paragraph (quoted as "the above")...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415637 - 03/18/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

anna, r you a troll?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415659 - 03/18/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Where is your evidence for the horrible living conditions? The only starvation going on there is self-imposed. Everything you are trying to say here is based on loony speculation. I don't like the detention camps, either, but to even try to compare them to the concentration camps during the Nazi era is absurd.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5415716 - 03/18/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

where is your evidence for the lack thereof??...paradoxically..the lack of evidence either way is itself evidence of said nazi-style abuses ..there was no evidence of what was going on in auschwitz either..until after the fact...copious past experiences with the "insufficient evidence" scenario is reason enough to believe that it is being repeated...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415755 - 03/18/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
..the lack of evidence either way is itself evidence of said nazi-style abuses ..


Wrong. Lack of evidence dosent prove anything, either way.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415765 - 03/18/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I would prefer Auschwitz. Death seems like a better option than a life of torture and no liberty, where even the option of death is taken away.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: bukkake]
    #5415774 - 03/18/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
I would prefer Auschwitz. Death seems like a better option than a life of torture and no liberty, where even the option of death is taken away.




And before you die you we be experimented on, have your genitals cut off and see how you react to it. You should read about what the Nazis did..... Cause apparently you dont know shit.


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415782 - 03/18/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
where is your evidence for the lack thereof??...paradoxically..the lack of evidence either way is itself evidence of said nazi-style abuses ..there was no evidence of what was going on in auschwitz either..until after the fact...copious past experiences with the "insufficient evidence" scenario is reason enough to believe that it is being repeated...




If that shit happened it would already been out. People already exposed so much shit about other prisons in europe but there is nothing that suggested mass executions.... Germans didn't even know about the prisons... We do and our judges are trying to make sure the prisoners have rights.

So again, don't compare the two. And for the people that picked the Nazi camp:  :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415784 - 03/18/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Evidence woman, don't you understand? Your whole argument lacks strength because of the lack of evidence on a rational basis.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415825 - 03/18/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

where is your evidence for the lack thereof??...paradoxically..the lack of evidence either way is itself evidence of said nazi-style abuses ..




Gibberish.

The lack of evidence is evidence?

Guantanamo is the most thoroughly investigated operational prison camp in the history of warfare. There have been countless congressional junkets, countless visits from people of all stripes -- people that in reality have no freaking business being allowed into a prison camp in wartime but are accomodated anyway.

But because none of them have found any evidence of "Auschwitz-like" conditions, this somehow shows that it is in fact an Auschwitz II, just one that's really REALLY good at hiding skeletal inmates?

What if a poster to this forum were to indulge in the same kind of loopy "logic" which makes up your staple diet and propose something like the following --



"I say the consistently batty nature of your posts is a deliberate ploy. You are a troll, all right, but not a Leftist troll at all. You are in fact a neocon operative of Karl Rove tasked with making Lefties appear totally insane in order to discredit Leftie talking points. You had us fooled for a while, but you passed the point of no return several months back. You'd do well to advise your puppetmaster Rove that he needs to replace you with someone a lot less over the top -- that your cover has been blown through your well-intentioned but clumsily overexaggerated parody of Leftie positions.

"Don't bother to protest you really are an honest-to-goodness Leftie. That won't wash. After all, the very fact there is no evidence you are a Rovian puppet just makes it all the more evident you really are. Better to just hang it up and have Karl assign someone new."




How would you clear your name and regain your credentials as a genuine and upstanding Leftie?




Phred


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: downforpot]
    #5415830 - 03/18/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

bukkake said:
I would prefer Auschwitz. Death seems like a better option than a life of torture and no liberty, where even the option of death is taken away.




And before you die you we be experimented on, have your genitals cut off and see how you react to it. You should read about what the Nazis did..... Cause apparently you dont know shit.



I do not know if it is convenient for you or if you lack rudimentary knowledge to highlight the abuses of Auschwitz and ignore those of the USA's present-day torture camps.

At least I would die in Auschwitz. I would not become grossly emaciated with the intent of death, only to have a tube shoved down my throat to maintain my miserable existence. I would also not be routinely beaten. A life of death is far greater than a life of solitary confinement unless one enjoys the existence of a dog.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: downforpot]
    #5415834 - 03/18/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
If that shit happened it would already been out. People already exposed so much shit about other prisons in europe but there is nothing that suggested mass executions.... Germans didn't even know about the prisons... We do and our judges are trying to make sure the prisoners have rights.

So again, don't compare the two. And for the people that picked the Nazi camp:  :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:




first of all..that shit *is* out...second of all..ill repeat ..simply because theres no mass executions doesnt by any means make it better than the nazis...third of all..while the germans didnt know about the gulags..amerikkkans do know but they dont care...fourth of all..while the courts have in fact upheld prisoners rights..congressed passed the graham-levin amendment to overrule such decisions...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: bukkake]
    #5415844 - 03/18/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I would not become grossly emaciated with the intent of death, only to have a tube shoved down my throat to maintain my miserable existence.




Perhaps they should choose to eat. They wouldn't be so emaciated then.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5415866 - 03/18/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Consider why they choose not to.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: bukkake]
    #5415869 - 03/18/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Because they want to intentionally make the prisons look worse than they are?


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Redstorm]
    #5415883 - 03/18/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

My grandpa managed to escape gulags in Russia. He was targeted for imprisonment for a long long time under horrible conditions with no food, nothing, just work work work to death.

Don't fucking compare Stalin's gulags and Nazi deaths to fucking GITMO.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Phred]
    #5415888 - 03/18/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The lack of evidence is evidence?




maybe i should have said "lack of information" instead of "lack of evidence".. the former very often being evidence...

Quote:

Guantanamo is the most thoroughly investigated operational prison camp in the history of warfare. There have been countless congressional junkets, countless visits from people of all stripes -- people that in reality have no freaking business being allowed into a prison camp in wartime but are accomodated anyway.

But because none of them have found any evidence of "Auschwitz-like" conditions, this somehow shows that it is in fact an Auschwitz II, just one that's really REALLY good at hiding skeletal inmates?




thats the most rediculous thing i ever heard of..and is easily disproved...while there have been many such visits to guantanamo..many parts of the installation (most notably the CIA enclosure) were still off-limits...and while there might not be photographic evidence of aushcwitz-like conditions specifically at guantanamo..this has been documented at other sites such as abu-ghraib and the salt pit..."guantanamo" in this sense is more of a metaphor...

Quote:

"I say the consistently batty nature of your posts is a deliberate ploy. You are a troll, all right, but not a Leftist troll at all. You are in fact a neocon operative of Karl Rove tasked with making Lefties appear totally insane in order to discredit Leftie talking points. You had us fooled for a while, but you passed the point of no return several months back. You'd do well to advise your puppetmaster Rove that he needs to replace you with someone a lot less over the top -- that your cover has been blown through your well-intentioned but clumsily overexaggerated parody of Leftie positions.

"Don't bother to protest you really are an honest-to-goodness Leftie. That won't wash. After all, the very fact there is no evidence you are a Rovian puppet just makes it all the more evident you really are. Better to just hang it up and have Karl assign someone new."




How would you clear your name and regain your credentials as a genuine and upstanding Leftie?




thats partly true...im not a willing puppet of rove like phred...but OTOH..george lakoff and others have documented how any arguement against rove..logical or otherwise..always ends up strengthening roves' positions...and if i were an undercover rovian..then by the same token you would have to be an undercover liberal activist...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5415901 - 03/18/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Because they want to intentionally make the prisons look worse than they are?



I would be more inclined to say because of documented torture and no right to tribunals or courts.

Quote:

Don't fucking compare Stalin's gulags and Nazi deaths to fucking GITMO.



No one has mentioned Stalin aside from you. Your refusal to acknowledge the abuses and tortures of Guantanamo is very disappointing and odd. Message boards are for discussion. I am acknowledging both the cons of Guantanamo and Auschwitz for what they are.


Edited by bukkake (03/18/06 01:27 PM)


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: bukkake]
    #5415939 - 03/18/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not saying what goes on in those detention camps is right or just. I just don't believe that there is any comparison between those camps and the Nazi camps of mass execution.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: bukkake]
    #5416112 - 03/18/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bukkake said:
Quote:

Because they want to intentionally make the prisons look worse than they are?



I would be more inclined to say because of documented torture and no right to tribunals or courts.

Quote:

Don't fucking compare Stalin's gulags and Nazi deaths to fucking GITMO.



No one has mentioned Stalin aside from you. Your refusal to acknowledge the abuses and tortures of Guantanamo is very disappointing and odd. Message boards are for discussion. I am acknowledging both the cons of Guantanamo and Auschwitz for what they are.




Gulags and Nazi death camps led to deaths of millions of people. Do not compare Nazi death camps to GITMO.


--------------------



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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


Edited by downforpot (03/18/06 03:55 PM)


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5416335 - 03/18/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

where is your evidence for the lack thereof??

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

now...

what is it about conditions at guantanamo that make it identical to a place where people are forced to work, starve, and freeze to death, where they are constantly surrounded by death and disease, where they may be executed at any time for any reason, where bizarre and incredibly cruel medical experiments are done on them, and filth and crowding is everywhere?

what about guantanamo is identical to that (be specific) and what (again, specifically) is the evidence?


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5416566 - 03/18/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

no..i suppose you wouldnt freeze to death in guantanamo...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5416581 - 03/18/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

gitmo is a freakin resort compared to nazi death camps and russian goulags. its like being on the beach with a pina colada, during a hawaiian tropic swimsuit shoot, and wet t shirt contest. with a cuban cigar or a chronic joint.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5416584 - 03/18/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

would you be worked to death?

would you be the subject of freakish and inhumane medical 'experiments'?

would you lack access to clean clothing and sanitation facilities?

would you be starved?


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5416604 - 03/18/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

>> would you be worked to death?

read my earlier posts...

>> would you be the subject of freakish and inhumane medical 'experiments'?

quite possibly...

>> would you lack access to clean clothing and sanitation facilities?

yes..and this has been well-documented...

would you be starved?

>> again..read my earlier posts...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5416611 - 03/18/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

read my earlier posts...

already did.

quite possibly...

what evidence leads you to believe that?

yes..and this has been well-documented...

then it shouldn't be any trouble for you to provide some proof. why are you having such a hard time doing so?


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5416628 - 03/18/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

this was ridiculous several pages ago. it's not an important point and i don't think there's a single other person on the board that agrees with you, but i think that i and others are nailing you down on this because you've just gotten plain silly with this one... it's getting to the point of trolling. do you honestly believe what your saying?

you've got 4 options:

1. provide some evidence that conditions at guantanamo include freakish medical experiments, forced work, starvation, and complete filth.

2. discredit the evidence that the above conditions existed at auschwitz.

3. admit you were wrong and move on.

4. continue to squirm and dodge.

what's it gonna be?


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5416651 - 03/18/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Attention everyone!



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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5416781 - 03/18/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

1. provide some evidence that conditions at guantanamo include freakish medical experiments, forced work, starvation, and complete filth.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng

and all relevant sublinks from the same page...if thats not good enough..then simply google "guantanamo"...

2. discredit the evidence that the above conditions existed at auschwitz.

that is unnecessary...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5416892 - 03/18/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

that isn't how it works either. cite your evidence. where on that site does it talk about the starvation and forced work? it's not my job to go combing for it.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5416918 - 03/18/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Mind you that site is of a group who is trying to combat Guantamino.
It'd be better to have a neutral source, not a biased on liek that.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Freeker]
    #5416945 - 03/18/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i'll take whatever. there is absolutely nothing out there, from any source, to support annapurna1's silly claim that conditions at guantanamo are identical to the conditions that existed at auschwitz. i don't understand why she is unable to simply acknowledge that her claim was incorrect and move on. it's nothing to be ashamed of. this continuing nonsense on the other hand is.

this could actually be a good thread. there are interesting questions to ponder here and i wonder what people here have to say on the subject. what do we do about guantanamo bay? what do we do about captured terrorist-allied fighters?


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: wilshire]
    #5417142 - 03/18/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

they are not identical in ways which i have already explained...but i stand by what i said that they are indeed identical apart from those...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: downforpot]
    #5417289 - 03/18/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't. I chose one. I would rather die than have the shit kicked out of me periodically and essentially live the life of a prisoner. That is, the innocents who are held at Guantanamo.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: bukkake]
    #5417390 - 03/18/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Bukkake, you don't just die in Nazi death camps, you are experimented on... Worked to death. So if you want a quick death, kill yourself before they catch you.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: downforpot]
    #5417404 - 03/18/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

actually..in a nazi death camp..if they didnt let you just jump in the left-hand queue..then you could electrocute yourself on the perimetre before "playtime"...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5417829 - 03/19/06 01:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So they don't experiment on you? Damn, what a rip off.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5421546 - 03/20/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

People too easily talk about the nazi death camps, without actually realizing what actually happened there.

In order for history NOT repeating itself and being alert for warning signs we have to know. Know what monstrocities humanity is capable of, and know that "evil is among us".

Please read the following text and try to imagine what it was like:


---------------------------------------------------------------------

At Treblinka, arriving train passengers were savagely pulled from the train, separated by sex, and ordered to strip naked. In winter, the temperature often dropped to -5 ?C (25 ?F). The guards chose who would go to the "infirmary". The technique was to rush the whole process while beating everyone so nobody would have the chance to resist. The guards would first whip the men and force them to run uphill through the thirteen feet wide funnel all the way to the gas chambers. The men were locked in and asphyxiated with carbon monoxide from two captured Soviet tank engines. Making them run also raised their heartbeat, which made the process go faster (Lanzmann). It took thirty to forty minutes, then the "Jews of death" unloaded the dead and cleaned the chambers. Then the women were rushed in, and everyone was crammed as much as possible. The children that were "thrown into the chambers hit the ceiling and then, disfigured, sometimes with broken heads, fell on the heads of the prisoners."11

When the gassing was in progress, begun with a "Ivan, water!" by one of the guards, the prisoners screamed and pounded on the walls. There was a little peephole so the soldiers could see if the prisoners were dead yet.10 While the men were being gassed, the women were waiting naked in the funnel. They could hear their fathers, husbands, and sons dying. They experienced the "death panic", which caused them to empty their bowels involuntarily, because of the fear of imminent death. The ground in the funnel was covered with piles of excrement afterwards.12

When the doors were opened, "the disfigured, bitten prisoners, with ears torn off, lay on top of each other in the most varied posture." The bodies were then carried to the furnace to be burned. Sometimes, the people were not dead and began to revive in the fresh air, especially pregnant women. They were shot by the guards and burned like the others. Some 800-1000 bodies were burned at the same time. They would burn for five hours. The incinerator was operated twenty-four hours a day.13

The killing centers had no other function. They were not part of the war effort, so the prisoners were just killed as soon as possible.

Source: Wikipedia, Treblinka extermination camp entry

---------------------------------------------------------------------


If you look at this, guantanamo bay cannot be compared to it in any way. Guantanamo is a camp for political prisoners while nazi death camps were "ashes factories".

I didnt vote, because you cannot compare the two or choose without doing injustice to the other side's victims.

But make no mistake: the worst guards of both camps are the same kind of people. The Germans weren't evil as a people, but like in all of humanity evil people were among them.

A death camp guard was in the habit of snatching babies from their mother's arms, grab them by the legs and bust their skulls open against a wall, then pushing the dead baby back into the mothers arms and then shoving her into the gas chamber.
"evil" exists, and I don't mean that in a mythological way.

I feel that we HAVE to know. It does honor to the nameless victims and is the best possible assurance that the people will not allow such atrocities ever again.

Please download the attached PDF. It's a small booklet wherein a death camp inmate describes the *reality* of his year in that camp. You probably have not heard a concentration camp survivor tell the full story of what really happened, but this survivor's tale will give you a strong first impressions of the realities of death camps.
It's a very upsetting read, but it will be time well spent.

In a death camp I would upon arrival immediately be taken to the gas chamber and the krematorium to be processed to ashes. Most concentration camp inmates hardly burned because of starvation, I as an obese person would have been useful as kindling to get the pyre going, after which hundreds of bodies would be piled up by crane, bulldozer or conveyor belt.

You cannot compare that to Guantanamo Bay.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Asante]
    #5422050 - 03/20/06 11:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

im fully aware of the fact that there are no gas chambers at guantanamo.. nor will you freeze to death either...however..the absence of gas chambers doesnt make it better..just different...as was the case at treblinka..the gunatanamo inmates will still die there and suffer immensely in the meantime...and at guantanamo..that mean time will be much longer than it was at treblinka...


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5422078 - 03/20/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

you've made it pretty clear that you'd rather die at auschwitz than spend the rest of your life at guantanamo bay. that's fine. but conditions at the two places are not identical and you know it. this thread sucks. fortunately prajna has started one that might stimulate some meaningful discussion. this one surely hasn't. go check it out. how would you respond to phred's post (respond there of course)?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5422161 - 03/20/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

im fully aware of the fact that there are no gas chambers at guantanamo.. nor will you freeze to death either...however..the absence of gas chambers doesnt make it better..




Gas chambers specifically are not the point. Death camps are places for the industrial disposal of people by the hundred thousands. Guantanamo bay is a camp for political prisoners where they are subjected to inhumane treatment.

People in the death camps got exterminated in great multitudes AFTER having gotten inhumane treatment.

Imagine that every day 2.500 prisoners were taken into Guantanamo, packed with a hundred per traincar and ten or twenty of them dead per car on arrival, to be executed and burned in heaps of a thousand on a huge pile in the middle of the camp, the pyre burning all day and night for months, showering the wide area around Guantanamo with grey snowflakes of human ashes, while the place is littered with rotting corpses and "guards" shoot and torture people left and right whenever they feel like it.
You can't compare Guantanamo with a Death Camp.

Guantanamo's prisoners have to face the same monsters as death camp prisoners, only in Guantanamo they are held back while in a death camp those evil people would be encouraged to be as brutal as they liked.

If you take an imaginary guantanamo of perpetual suffering or an imaginary auschwitz with its gas chambers, then I'd probably choose to be taken to the gas chamber straight away and try to inhale as much cyanide as fast as I could.

But it isnt like that. The real-life Guantanamo has boundaries in terms of atrocities and in absolute time people will spend in that place, so its torture would not be everlasting, and murder will be discouraged. The real-life Auschwitz was a combination of work camp/death camp, so first they worked you until there was less than 100lbs left of you and *then* they would gas you.

Then, IRL, it would definitely be better to suffer Guantanamo than to be taken to Auschwitz.


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Asante]
    #5422221 - 03/20/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

this is the most foolish thread I have ever seen. :crazy2:


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5435170 - 03/23/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

seriously..why are any of you even debating this with ana? she is clearly insane.


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #5435175 - 03/23/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

and btw, i didn't read one person mention the fact that plenty of people have been released from gitmo. that is all.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #5435181 - 03/23/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This thread deservedly died 3 days ago. YOU had to bring it back. Next time do us all a favor and DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! Thank you, that is all.


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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5435205 - 03/23/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

it was on the first page..oops, i forgot how slow this forum moves


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: poll ..your fate in the death(?) camp (repost)... [Re: Asante]
    #5436990 - 03/24/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If you look at this, guantanamo bay cannot be compared to it in any way.Gas chambers specifically are not the point. Death camps are places for the industrial disposal of people by the hundred thousands. Guantanamo bay is a camp for political prisoners where they are subjected to inhumane treatment.


That's Treblinka. Auschwitz wasn't solely a death camp. People were imprisoned there (hey - and without trial too that rings a bell...)


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