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Shitake/Portobello not growing?
    #10449353 -

I am attempting to cultivate some mushrooms bought at the store. I purchased a portobello and a shitake from a supermarket and some blue oyster mushrooms from an Asian market.


I tried cultivating all three on agar. The Blue oyster is doing wonderfully and I saw mycillium, in one or two days but the portobello and shitake both withered, the portobello made the agar mushy and black and the shitake just withered.


I tried taking a piece of tissue directly from the mushrooms straight into jars of spent grain/wood shavings and the oyster is already growing but the shitake and portobello show no signs of growth.


What the hell is going on?!? Did they irradiate or freeze the portobello and shitake or are they just hard to grow?

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: crazyboy25]
    #10451044 -

Store bought mushrooms are notorious for cloning issues. Since they've already been expanded so much, the tissue is 'cloned out' or senescent. That may be part of your issue.  Though the fact that they haven't grown at all is kind of strange.


--------------------
The Plant Mage Guild

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: crazyboy25]
    #10452151 -

Perhaps your shiitake was too old? You may try again with more luck.

Ports will not grow on wood and most strains perform lousy on the usual agar mixtures or on pure grain. You can raise your chances by adding manure or compost. Some weeks ago, I cloned some on cardboard, soaked with compost tea. Try using gill tissue for cloning. If the tissue won't grow, it usually stays alive long enough to cause spore germination. In any case, when you buy ports, look at the stem, where it has been cut. Go for fresh samples, where the cut is as white as possible.

Senescence may be possible, but won't happen as often as most people here believe.

Carsten

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Mycelio]
    #10546536 -

I myself had to attempt tissue cloning of ports several times before getting any live mycelium. Now I have several jars of unbuffered rye grain colinized, several plates of agar made, and have spawned it to compost and cased with peat...  no fruits. lol.

Keep attempting tissue clones... and put the tissues to different kinds of agar. I myself use MEYA (Malt Extract Yeast Agar) as a base, but often change the distilled water it usually asked for other "liquids" that are normally by-products of culturing. Mostly, I use the water left from paraboiling rye prior to pressure cooking (RMEYA I call it then), or the tea from pasturizing the compost (CMEYA). I find that using RMEYA for initial starting of the clone is most successfull (Probably because of the senticence described before) and then switching it to other alternating agar during sectoring helps.

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Terantula]
    #10546827 -

Terantula said:
... Now I have several jars of unbuffered rye grain colinized, several plates of agar made, and have spawned it to compost and cased with peat...  no fruits. lol.
...


If you didn't mix the compost with straw and if you didn't add lime or ground egg shells to the peat, you should try next time. Agaricus also needs cellulose and pure peat is often too acidic.

Carsten

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Mycelio]
    #10547091 -

Don't waste your time cloning grocery store mushrooms.  Order a young culture with juvenile cell lines, not an old grown out culture already suffering from senescence, and contaminated by everyone who's touched it in transit and in the store.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Mycelio]
    #10547684 -

Mycelio said:


Senescence may be possible, but won't happen as often as most people here believe.

Carsten

I have had GREAT success with cloneing blue oysters from the store.I used the clone for years it always grew and fruited great.



--------------------
Burn the land and boil the sea but you can't take the sky from me.

Edited by poboy (06/21/09 01:51 PM)

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: poboy]
    #10548479 -

Same here, I'm trying to get my oysters to go senescent by using stem buds from late flushes to start the next culture again and again. No Luck after more than two years and more than a dozen of generations... From a microbiological point of view, each cell of higher organisms can only divide for a limited number of times, until all the telomeres at the ends of its chromosomes are used up. So I wonder, if spores which fall onto the substrate, may germinate, fuse with the old mycelium and refresh its genetics.

Apart from that, button mycelium is usually weaker and grows slower, perhaps senescence happens faster here?

Carsten

Edited by Mycelio (06/21/09 04:02 PM)

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10803895 -

RR...

  The logic of that is faulty.

  If the entire industry uses clonging of fruitbodies as a means to generate viable genetic stock, then it becumes a falacy to expect that fruitbodies produced cannot be cloned.

  More specifically, success increases with cloning fruitbodies with the youth of hte fruitbody itself. Not its handling or envirment.

I too have had grand success in clonging several cultures from store bought mushrooms... The only families I have trouble fruiting are the Agaricus, my oysters produce quite well from tissue and gillplate samples.

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Terantula]
    #10804131 -

Terantula said:
RR...

  The logic of that is faulty.

  If the entire industry uses clonging of fruitbodies as a means to generate viable genetic stock, then it becumes a falacy to expect that fruitbodies produced cannot be cloned.



But, the entire industry does NOT use cloning of fruitbodies from the supermarket as a means to generate viable stock.  That's not how it's done. Often, commercial growers take clones from wild grows, which is a different animal completely.

It's well established that grocery store clones will produce mediocre results at best.  Certainly you won't get a commercial quality strain you can make money from.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Terantula]
    #10804708 -

Terantula said:
RR...

  The logic of that is faulty.




IF you didn't understand the word senescent, you should have looked it up. It means old, tired, dying. 

A culture is as old as the first cell that was born, clone or no clone. PRoduction of a fruitbody does not make it "Young again"

It is POSSIBLE to once in a while get a young strain from the supermarket.  IT is just UNLIKELY, and not a good expenditure of your resources and limited time.

Good growing.

Jef


--------------------
I am my own lab rat.


Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I will remember.  Involve me and I will learn.

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Jef]
    #10805019 -

Jef said:
Terantula said:
RR...

  The logic of that is faulty.




IF you didn't understand the word senescent, you should have looked it up. It means old, tired, dying. 

A culture is as old as the first cell that was born, clone or no clone. PRoduction of a fruitbody does not make it "Young again"

It is POSSIBLE to once in a while get a young strain from the supermarket.  IT is just UNLIKELY, and not a good expenditure of your resources and limited time.

Good growing.

Jef


If you were to take an "old, tired, dying" culture, fruit it and use its spores to start a new culture, would the spore culture also be "old, tired, dying" or would it be young again?  I am pretty sure I read that it would be young again but I just wanted to check. 

If so, couldn't you just fruit the "old" culture from the supermarket and start a young culture from its spores? That way after some work you would eventually end up with a healthy and viable culture.

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: jjb007]
    #10832398 -

Anyone know the answer to my previous post?

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: jjb007]
    #10832497 -

Yes.

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Therian]
    #10832880 -

ANy culture from spores is young and fresh.  Old, tired, dying cultures often won't fruit, and very often, they will colonize so slowly that you'll lose them to contams.

I have one going that fruited poorly, once, but that cell line will colonize okay, but now refuses to fruit.

The "child" culture you get from spores can be different from it's parent.  You may have an ugly baby that does not fruit or grow as well as the parent too.

The reason for cloning is to preserve the characteristics of a superior fruiting cell line.



--------------------
I am my own lab rat.


Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I will remember.  Involve me and I will learn.

Edited by Jef (08/10/09 12:40 PM)

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Re: Shitake/Portobello not growing? [Re: Jef]
    #10833030 -

Jef said:
ANy culture from spores is young and fresh.  Old, tired, dying cultures often won't fruit, and very often, they will colonize so slowly that you'll lose them to contams.

I have one going that fruited poorly, once, but that cell line will colonize okay, but now refuses to fruit.

The "child" culture you get from spores can be different from it's parent.  You may have an ugly baby that does not fruit or grow as well as the parent too.

The reason for cloning is to preserve the characteristics of a superior fruiting cell line.




Very interesting, thanks for the info!

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
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