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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Coincidence vs. Synchronicity
    #10581643 -

Not necessarily, but in relative context, it seems to me that coincidence appeals to a particular array of chaos as synchronicity appeals to a solution of order.

Does it take any less metaphysical gusto, self importance or human interpretation to assert coincidence as opposed to synchronicity?

I am skeptical.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: daytripper23]
    #10581689 -

Appeal to 'chaos' is less assumptive.

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: DieCommie]
    #10581712 -

Qubit said:
Appeal to 'chaos' is less assumptive.


How so?  Clearly order exists throughout the universe.


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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: Silversoul]
    #10581735 -

Well, Im a little unsure about the definition of order and chaos here.  In other contexts, I would not say that they are exclusive nor would I say that synchronicity depends on order.

I would make the distinction in this way - synchronicity is an occurrence with meaningful intent where coincidence is an occurrence with no meaningful intent.  In this light synchronicity is more assumptive.

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: DieCommie]
    #10581802 -

More assumptive only if we take chaos to be the guiding principle

Which brings it right back to Silversoul's question, why is it less assumptive to believe chaos is the guiding princple?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: Kickle]
    #10581810 -

Because one assumes meaning and one doesn't.  Did you even read my reply? :rolleyes:

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: DieCommie]
    #10581867 -

Yes, I did.

So from the chaos point of view, you are assuming meaning to see synchronicity.
From the order point of view, you're assuming nothing.

From the order point of view, you're assuming a lack of meaning, to ascribe coincidence.
From the chaos point of view, you're assuming nothing.

So given your argument, if we appeal to order, this ambiguous attribution of assumption changes sides.

Which is why the question remains relevant. Why is an appeal to chaos any less assumptive than an appeal to order?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: Kickle]
    #10581882 -

Quote:
you're assuming a lack of meaning,


no Im not.  Im not assuming any meaning.  You are just playing silly word games here to imply I said things that I did not.

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: DieCommie]
    #10581901 -

Perhaps I am.

Quote:
coincidence is an occurrence with no meaningful intent


But that sounds a lot like "no meaning" to me?

I'm just responding the way I see it, no word games intended. If you meant that there is a possibility of meaning, then it's simple, I didn't see it conveyed, and that's why we're having this dialogue now. No hard feelings on my end about that, but I am slightly offended by the way you're belittling my responses.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: daytripper23]
    #10582023 -

Both chaos and order co-exist - which one can take on faith if one affirms Taoistic principles of Reality. There is chaos coming into symmetry and symmetry returning to chaos. There was the universe just after the Big Bang, and the complexity of us typing on computer technology.

Synchronicity DOES include a sentient node (us) in the fabric of space-time (which does not translate into self-importance, just self-awareness). It also brings together an inner psychic event with an outer physical event. It also describes in that coincidence of inner and outer, an archetypal theme (archetypes are numberless, but there are just so many involved with the human experience). Coincidences may not seem to magnify an archetypal experience, and one might want to attribute the mathematics of probability, but then again, the Chinese did something with the number 64 in their I Ching which demonstrates some physical-metaphysical symmetry beyond my feeble comprehension. The Kabbalists have their Gematria numerology too, and the correspondences with the Hebrew language, including the very shape of the letters as reflecting a metaphysic is yet another example of an ordering Logos. http://www.meru.org/Press/Atlantisrising.html

I didn't try to give an answer really, just to encourage the quest for Mystery. There is chaos. There is symmetry.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: DieCommie]
    #10584822 -

Perhaps I agree that it is all to human to appeal to order. But then, I also don't think it is possible to conceptualize in any terms other than that unity of a system, whether it is God, or Nature. They are both transcendental.

So while an ostensible harmony is far fetched, it is still the necessary speculation for knowledge (of a system.) Without rewriting the rules of empiricism, it seems that chaos is a synthetic ideal derived from that order, and vice versa!

Order and chaos are not absolute; they are as flawed as our absurd human perspective, and I would say the illusion of that is considering a perspective too seriously. but that "nostolgia for unity" is the burden of consciousness; these terms and their relative disjunct, not the underlying premise that necessarily ties them together.

In the artifice of any realization, order and chaos are not actually mutually exclusive. This fracturing of understanding is both unnecessary and unrealistic. A coincidence is harmonic in relation to nature/consciousness.

By that, I mean the most we can assume is a dynamic of tension of consonance  (like order) and dissonance (like chaos). This does not assert value, but rather recognizes and acknowledges the burden of it in all human understanding.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (06/28/09 03:39 AM)

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: daytripper23]
    #10585156 -

Indeed.

To label something as synchronistic is to give an event an "author", a theological or mystical one for some, a structural one for others, and for others yet an emergent one. In that sense one ascribes a causal chain or structure besides the phenomenological, thus leaving meaning and knowledge in an awkward position. As Barthes said in Death of the Author,

Quote:
"To give a text an Author" and assign a single, corresponding interpretation to it "is to impose a limit on that text."


Although the author above is not exactly the same as Barthes', it's nonetheless a framing of an event; to cast an event into a synchronicity is to shrink inside yourself, your past, culture, expectations, aspirations and stereotypes, rather than any kind of meaningful reaching and grasping at the order of things and their contextual meaning. One does NOT yet know in a way that can be framed in language and embedded in a public form of life.

On the other hand, to label something as coincidence is to give an event a causal chain first, and then most probably dismissing any claim of reason, meaning or knowledge as very unlikely. Simply it is a safer bet, phenomenologically that is. It is in a way logical positivism.

In the end, if one could ever acquire the right to speak of synchronicities through their proper understanding, supposing that they are indeed the case, then the world context into which we would have come to know of such entangled phenomena would probably lead us to consider it a coincidence that there are synchronicities in the first place, the same way it is today understood, at best, as coincidental that waves give rise to interference phenomena or that a good approximate theory of nature as understood with quantum mechanics requires the use of complex numbers. That or the appeal to synchronicities would appear, in said world context, as trivial, archaic or superstitious, relinquished to the likes of the phlogiston and alchemy.

Edited by deimya (06/28/09 11:11 AM)

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: deimya]
    #10585750 -

I got completly mind fucked by Chaos vs Order on one of my last LSD experiences.  I saw everything as the most chaotic thing possible and the most ordered thing possible.  And while it seems impossible for the two to co-exist in the same system, i saw it as the nature of reality.  However it makes no sense as soon as the words come out of ones mouth.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: Coincidence vs. Synchronicity [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10585805 -

All I have to offer is that after becoming more "in tune" with the world through meditation and psychedelics I usually see a fine line between the two. Dreams would be the most relevant.

I do agree though, one is order the other chaos, respectively.


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With Allure I Look to the Sky With Awakened Eyes

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