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 OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
 
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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 Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability 
#6947190 - 05/21/07 01:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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For the life of me, I cannot fathom folks that believe in synchronicity as some meaningful event other than as an expression of 'magical thinking'.
Assuming a universe with no higher power, spirit guides, over-soul, etc., and a planet with 6 billion people each having tens of thousand discrete experiences and hundreds of thousands of memories from which to link any given experience; there MUST be data points that intersect - that which some call coincidence and/or synchronicity - this is a mathematical certainty!
As this form of cross-linking HAS TO occur with or without a higher power, why assume, other than for amusement, that these probabilistic 'events' have any specific meaning?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6947547 - 05/21/07 02:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hell if I know...
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: Diploid]
#6947576 - 05/21/07 02:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Hell if I know...
What do you get when you cross an elephant with a rhino?
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6947650 - 05/21/07 03:02 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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So your argument is that synchronicity is a "meaningless" phenomenon?
Could you give an example of a meaningfull phenomenon?
If so, i can continue this discussion.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: Moonshoe]
#6947700 - 05/21/07 03:13 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Comets are visible from the earth from time to time and would occasionally pass by whether humans existed or not. There is no correlation to any human activity; yet for millenia, humans assign special meanings to these chunks of dirty snow.
That is a meaningless phenomenon as far as being a harbinger of doom.
A person get diabetes from poor diet and overeating (and some genetic leanings). Iis an indicator of poor health and that underlying behavior needs to be changed to restore proper function.
That is a meaningful phenomenon.
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AlephOne
Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 150
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6947738 - 05/21/07 03:23 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well, I can hardly fault older cultures for thinking of strange astronomical events as bad omens. Since the dawn of agriculture we used the progression of the constellations across the sky to know when we could plant our crops. Over the years a loose conceptual association no doubt developed between that progression and impeding events, to the point that a causal relationship was erroneously inferred.
These days, though, I'm not so understanding. People who have never planted anything still turn to their daily horoscopes in the newspaper. Oh, speaking of which, James Randi is a badass.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6947773 - 05/21/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is no meaning to anything without a meaning-creating mind, such as the one we all possess.
Once this mind is present, however, anything and everything is assigned some meaning or value of meaning by said mind.
All of these meanings and values of meanings are 100% subjective and personal, by definition.
As such, no value of meaning can ever be more or less "true" then the next. It is all subjective interpretation, choice.
If i see a rose blossom on my mothers tomb every year at the exact day she died, that can "mean" that the universe is reassuring me and comforting me and giving me this reminder that life endures.
Or it can mean shit all to me.
Neither meaning is true, neither meaning is false.
There is a saying
"either everything is miraculous or nothing is"
Your post amounts to a statement that for you, nothing is.
This is fair. For balances sake i will simply state that for me, everything is, and meaningfull synchronicity is a persistent fact of my life experience.
Peace .
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Everything I post is fiction.
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 jonathanseagull
Cool!
Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6947807 - 05/21/07 03:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your argument starts with an assumption that completely wipes out any chance of a syncronicity meaning anything. Nobody can argue this with you within these restrictions.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6947816 - 05/21/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Diploid said:
Hell if I know...
What do you get when you cross an elephant with a rhino?
an elephino
ha ha ha
this certainly does come together nicely.
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 _  🧠 _ 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: Moonshoe]
#6947834 - 05/21/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
If i see a rose blossom on my mothers tomb every year at the exact day she died, that can "mean" that the universe is reassuring me and comforting me and giving me this reminder that life endures.
Let's assume one believes this interpretation. As dreamy poetry it is fine, but to actually think that the rose's life cycle is somehow connected to your mother's death is very egocentric and is irrationality of the highest order.
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AlephOne
Registered: 05/13/06
Posts: 150
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: jonathanseagull]
#6947838 - 05/21/07 03:40 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
Your argument starts with an assumption that completely wipes out any chance of a syncronicity meaning anything. Nobody can argue this with you within these restrictions.
Nor should anyone be able to. Correlation does not imply causation.
Take it Richard. Good stuff starts halfway through (3:30).
Edited by AlephOne (05/21/07 03:44 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: jonathanseagull]
#6947859 - 05/21/07 03:47 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
jonathanseagull said:
Your argument starts with an assumption that completely wipes out any chance of a syncronicity meaning anything. Nobody can argue this with you within these restrictions.
Because?
Because I state to assume there is no higher power?
Stay with me here for one moment.
With no higher power, would people still not occasionally guess the next song on the radio? Yes or no?
With no higher power, would people still not occasionally run into others who have the same birthday? Yes or no?
If these coincidences would occur without a higher power and thus no ultimate meaning, why assume that there IS a higher power maniuplating forces to give one a message?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6947880 - 05/21/07 03:53 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think it's about what we set our minds to see. If we want to coincidences we will see them, if we want to see disaster we see disaster and so on. The fact is that all of these things are happening everywhere in the same time. It's up to us what we choose to look for and then we focus our attention on it.
It is also true that if we want to see negative stuff this will affect out mind set and make us feel angry and if we choose to see "flowers blossoming" we feel happy.
In each case we only see just a part of what's happening.
It is also true that we can't pay attention to everything but at least we can keep in mind that what we see is not all from what happens.
In that context yes you can say there also exists "synchronicity" but we are the ones who choose to give it that label.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
Edited by MushroomTrip (05/21/07 04:43 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6948067 - 05/21/07 04:51 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
In that context yes you can say there also exists "synchronicity" but we are the ones who choose to give it that label.
Most people that speak reverantly of synchronicity generally believe it is external evidence of some mysterious force at work; not merely a subjective interpretation.
If we assign any one of a trillion possible explanations (or no explanation) for some event, then that speaks soley of imagination and not any form of external guidance.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6948082 - 05/21/07 04:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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You know what they say about most people... 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
 
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6948140 - 05/21/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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It is also called suggestion which can have bigger results then delusion because through that I understand turning our minds to a certain state and being able to imprint it to somebody else.
So there are some situations where it can all start from imagination but through self suggestion can become more.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Panoramix
Getafix
Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6948186 - 05/21/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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"If these coincidences would occur without a higher power and thus no ultimate meaning, why assume that there IS a higher power manipulating forces to give one a message?"
- OrgoneC
I don't see that there's much sense in making an assumption one way or the other. If we take the subjectivity of meaning associated with syncronicity and the fact that these things are likely to happen on their own to indicate that there's no conclusive answer either way, then I would take syncronistic events to be no more or less meaningful than the more mundane kind, necessarily. It comes down to personal preference at that point, I reckon. Me, I like to walk around town and go the directions recommended by the stoplights I come across. I very seldomly end up walking in circles, and when I do, perhaps that's the universe suggesting I take a minute to go nowhere in particular and just think about things. Meaning is a tricky thing, I prefer to dissociate myself from it. I figure, there's no knowing the full magnificence of things so getting too attached to anything in particular, especially ideas and conceptions of meaning amount to a recipe for headaches.
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Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6948460 - 05/21/07 06:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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Dude, I was just thinking about synchronicity before I noticed this thread - ABOUT SYNCHRONICITY. In fact I was going to look up an old post about snakes and synchronicity that MarkostheGnostic had made because I saw two snakes today. Weird!
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: Lion]
#6948469 - 05/21/07 06:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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I like to let go of them when they happen because they resurface again regardless and my thought-stream seems more fluid that way.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Synchronicity, Coincidence and Probability [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6948570 - 05/21/07 06:55 PM (16 years, 10 months ago) |
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You probably have not read Jung's Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle, or you do not get what Jung wished to establish, based on the same (mathematical as well!) principle that the I Ching seems to operate by. The notion of the Tao is behind all of this and Tao (translation: [Way, or Going] is the Chinese formula of "Higher Power." Magical thinking can refer to an early pre-logical stage of cognitive development, or it can refer to the willful manipulation of factors that will, ostensibly, 'bend' the Tao around the 'gravitational center' of one's will. In other words, whereas mysticism seeks to align oneself with The Way ('Not my will but thy will be done'), magic seeks to control or manipulate higher organizing force[s]. Petitionary prayer partakes of both aspects - magic and mysticism, while contemplative prayer is synonymous with mysticism and seeks alignment, harmony with the higher will.
Read Richard Wilhelm's classic little story 'The Rainmaker,' based on experiences he had in China.
Sychronicity always involves a co-incidence of inner psychic and outer physical events. An Archetype of the Collective Unconscious 'constellates' these inner-outer events and because both psychic and physical aspects combine in such events, Jung referred to Archetypes as being "Psychoid," which meant partaking of both forms of energy - conscious psyche and unconscious matter. The implications of this theory can be generalized from the human locus to the fullness of the space-time continuum. Just prior to his death, Jung and physicist Wolfgang Pauli collaborated on a sort of Grand Unified Theory in which Consciousness and matter were two sides of the same coin. Consciousness seamlessly pervades the universe as does matter, and this could account for most of the Psi phenomena like precognition, telepathy, and on a higher order, telekinesis parallels prayer. Not just spoon-bending, but entire 'event-bending,' so-to-speak. Such a theory would take prayer into consideration as a function of the higher principle.
Certain typologies (according to the Myers-briggs Type Indicator) have immense problems with these concepts which rely heavily upon the Intuition (N) function. Thus, those who test out to be Sensate (S) and favor the senses over intuition, typologically, oftentimes find this idea inscrutable and incomprehensible because they approach it through the senses which cannot grasp it at all. Meanwhile, Intuitive Thinking types get this stuff which comes easily through their specific processing. The problem of understanding is worsened by the fact that sensate types cannot easily take an intuitive's word for the possibility of the truth of such a concept, because faith (even in another's perception) is an intuitive stance.
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/23/07 09:51 PM)
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