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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10354369 -

bush discontinued the practice in 2007 anyway, so when it was used the detainees had no reason to know they weren't going to die. Though since it was done so much repeatedly to some I think some caught on after some point. Becides look at Hitchens get waterboarded. I doubt detainees were treated that nice and he still said it was torture and he was pro-waterboarding before the incident. I think anyone who doesn't think waterboarding is torture should have to experience it before voicing their opinion.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10354581 -

You supplied the criteria that just thinking it was dangerous made it torture.  Now that everybody on the planet knows that it is not it can't be torture, by your definition.  Like finals week.  It is unpleasant but not dangerous.  Like Bob Dylan singing.


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10354828 -

no actually thinking it would or could kill them in addition to the physical suffering caused by it makes it torture. When was the last time ABBA or Dylan caused you physical pain and terrified you with the implication that it was killing you and you weren't on acid?


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10355205 -

I don't know about you, but I find Abba pretty damn terrifying.  Definitely torture.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10358766 -

Since I never thought ABBA could actually kill me, and since we all now know that waterboarding is harmless, they are equivalent.  Bob Dylan has caused me a great deal of mental anguish.


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10359523 -

zappaisgod said:
it's not terrifying anymore since every asshole terrorist now knows that there is a doctor in the next room ready to jump in to make sure nothing bad happens...

...what detainees at Gitmo are being waterboarded now?  Answer, none.


So zappa, you would prefer that the rest of the world (including Al Qaeda) view the United States as a bunch of uncivilized thugs?  I think that helps Al Qaeda's cause actually.

Proving we are not as bad as people think is a positive thing.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10360076 -

Since when is it uncivilized to try to prevent murdering morons from destroying civilization?  Four murdering assholes were subjected to non life threatening, non damaging interrogation unpleasantness, which unpleasantness they could have ended at any point if they just gave up their other murdering cohorts.  Your idea of civilization is laughable.  If we had it there would be nothing protecting you from being my slave.


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10360246 -

zappaisgod said:
Since when is it uncivilized to try to prevent murdering morons from destroying civilization?


Funny, I seem to remember people complaining about torture when it was done on our own soldiers to prevent us from destroying foreign Governments.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10360275 -

What torture?  Are you so daft as to equate beatings that result in broken bones and starvation to waterboarding with a doctor in the room?  Are you so blind that you can't see a difference?


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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10360853 -

zappaisgod said:
What torture?  Are you so daft as to equate beatings that result in broken bones and starvation to waterboarding with a doctor in the room?  Are you so blind that you can't see a difference?


Sorry, I assumed that when people are killed in US custody, that qualifies as torture.  I guess that's not as bad as beatings and starvation.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10361147 -

> Sorry, I assumed that when people are killed in US custody, that qualifies as torture.

You assumed wrong.  People die in US custody all the time.  Look at the general prison population if you need an example.  Some die from the actions of other prisoners, some die from old age or natural causes, some die from suicide, etc.  Trying to define torture is a tricky proposition.  It isn't as easy to do as you are pretending.  Waterboarding is a classic example; it may or may not be torture depending upon the circumstances.  Not everything in life can be classified as black or white.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Seuss]
    #10361360 -

Ya know some of the things that cause people to die in the general prison population are legally considered to be torture. The difference is that right now the whole world knows about it(edit: gitmo torture) while they are blind to the occasional crooked beating of a paid off prison guard or the like.

What I don't get is that you guys don't see that intent is a major component of the definition of torture. Now if something accidentally happens to someone like they are burned nearly to death in a prison fire that's not torture even though it's likely majorly excruciating pain. However, if someone is intentionally subjected to stress positions and sensory deprivation that the US government has been engineering to break people since the 50s and even some of it before hand, now that is torture. If they decide to resurrect a mid-evil/ww2japaneese torture method into a more streamlined and sanitized version and intentionally subject someone to this new form of simulated drowning in order to punish them, that is fucking torture too. You guys are too pre-occupied with the mechanics of the act and severity of the pain that you do not realize that torture is not just an action but it's an intent coupled with action.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (05/18/09 11:41 PM)

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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Seuss]
    #10361399 -

Seuss said:
People die in US custody all the time.  Look at the general prison population if you need an example.  Some die from the actions of other prisoners, some die from old age or natural causes, some die from suicide, etc.


That's not who I'm talking about.  I'm talking about the people that died as a result of physical abuse or harsh conditions of detention.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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