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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10268476 - 05/01/09 12:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Huh?  What disjointed point, if any, are you trying to make?  Because I'm pretty clear about the point I'm trying to make.  These assholes are terrorists and I hope they move next door to you and tigger.  Is a person not a pedophile if he only assaults boys in Thailand?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10268975 - 05/01/09 01:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Huh?  What disjointed point, if any, are you trying to make?  Because I'm pretty clear about the point I'm trying to make.  These assholes are terrorists and I hope they move next door to you and tigger.  Is a person not a pedophile if he only assaults boys in Thailand?



The point I made is that the ones who are determined a threat to the US aren't being released at all.

As to your example, a better one would be "is a pedophile a threat in an area with no children?"


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10269165 - 05/01/09 02:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

That is, of course, absurd.  But let's use it.  Is a terrorist a threat if he can have no contact with other humans?  Hmmmmm.  No.  Let's strand them on a desert island in the middle of the ocean.  That works for me.  Barring that, I say release them in your neighborhood and keep them there.
And I disagree with the judgment that the Chinese wiggers are no threat.  For the reasons I linked to.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10269662 - 05/01/09 04:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And I disagree with the judgment that the Chinese wiggers are no threat.  For the reasons I linked to.



Of the 22, "as many as seven" are up for release.  So yes, it appears the rest ARE a threat, and are being detained accordingly.

In case you didn't know, our Government doesn't hold everyone that commits a crime in jail for life, even though it's possible some might commit another crime.  The punishment has to fit the crime in civilized society.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10271662 - 05/02/09 01:37 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Huh?  What disjointed point, if any, are you trying to make?  Because I'm pretty clear about the point I'm trying to make.  These assholes are terrorists and I hope they move next door to you and tigger.  Is a person not a pedophile if he only assaults boys in Thailand?




That would be a problem for the Thai prosecutors, I think.


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What can we do to help you stop screaming?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: TGRR]
    #10273573 - 05/02/09 02:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

And you would be wrong.  We can prosecute pedophile tourists here, now, for what they do there.
Quote:

The United States  has risen to take legislative action against the growing evils of child sex tourism. In 1994, Congress established 18 U.S.C. § 2423(b), which is aimed towards prosecution of child sex tourists. Section 2423(b) criminalizes traveling abroad for the purpose of engaging in illegal sexual activity with a minor. Currently, successful prosecution under § 2423(b) requires the government to prove that an alleged child sex tourist from the United States formed the intent to engage in sexual activity with a child prior to meeting the child and initiating sexual contact. In other words, a defendant is only punishable under § 2423(b) if he has the intent, while traveling, to engage in sexual activity with minors. The federal government has successfully utilized § 2423(b) to target several child sex tourists. Current proposals to eliminate the intent requirement may broaden the government's prosecutorial power by allowing the government to prosecute United States citizens who engage in sexual acts with children while abroad, regardless of when they formed the intent to do so.




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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10273609 - 05/02/09 02:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And you would be wrong.  We can prosecute pedophile tourists here, now, for what they do there.
Quote:

The United States  has risen to take legislative action against the growing evils of child sex tourism. In 1994, Congress established 18 U.S.C. � 2423(b), which is aimed towards prosecution of child sex tourists. Section 2423(b) criminalizes traveling abroad for the purpose of engaging in illegal sexual activity with a minor. Currently, successful prosecution under � 2423(b) requires the government to prove that an alleged child sex tourist from the United States formed the intent to engage in sexual activity with a child prior to meeting the child and initiating sexual contact. In other words, a defendant is only punishable under � 2423(b) if he has the intent, while traveling, to engage in sexual activity with minors. The federal government has successfully utilized � 2423(b) to target several child sex tourists. Current proposals to eliminate the intent requirement may broaden the government's prosecutorial power by allowing the government to prosecute United States citizens who engage in sexual acts with children while abroad, regardless of when they formed the intent to do so.







That's awesome.  America is now legislating for other nations, and for things that don't even happen in our jurisdiction.

I guess that means American law applies everywhere, right?  Even in Gitmo?

When do we start arresting CIA agents?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: TGRR]
    #10273672 - 05/02/09 02:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
I guess that means American law applies everywhere, right?  Even in Gitmo?

When do we start arresting CIA agents?



:grin:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Phred]
    #10274442 - 05/02/09 05:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Gitmo looking better all the time

Barack Obama promised to close the detention center at Guantanamo Bay and end the military tribunal process that he opposed as a Senator for its detainees if elected President.  After taking the oath of office, Obama fulfilled that promise by ordering the shutdown of Gitmo and halting the tribunals.  Now, three months later, the Obama administration can’t find nations willing to accept murderous, lunatic terrorists as guests, and suddenly those military tribunals look pretty good:

Quote:

The Obama administration is moving toward reviving the military commission system for prosecuting Guantánamo detainees, which was a target of critics during the Bush administration, including Mr. Obama himself.

Officials said the first public moves could come as soon as next week, perhaps in filings to military judges at the United States naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, outlining an administration plan to amend the Bush administration’s system to provide more legal protections for terrorism suspects.

Continuing the military commissions in any form would probably prompt sharp criticism from human rights groups as well as some of Mr. Obama’s political allies because the troubled system became an emblem of the effort to use Guantánamo to avoid the American legal system.




Does anyone else find it fascinating that the Obama administration leaked this on a Friday night?  I suspect that they know just how much flak they will take over this reversal, especially in the media.  This seems designed to bury the story in a weekend cycle, with a prayer that a big event occurs between now and Monday to keep it buried.

Maybe Madonna will get married again.  Who knows?

You have to love this passage (emphasis mine):

Quote:

When President Obama suspended Guantánamo cases after his inauguration on Jan. 20, many participants said the military commission system appeared dead.  But in recent days a variety of officials involved in the deliberations say that after administration lawyers examined many of the cases, the mood shifted toward using military commissions to prosecute some detainees, perhaps including those charged with coordinating the Sept. 11 attacks.

“The more they look at it,” said one official, “the more commissions don’t look as bad as they did on Jan. 20.”




Hmm.  Maybe they should have looked at it a little more before running for President on the promise of ending the only effective manner of trying terrorists captured in foreign countries. Many of us looked at it in much more detail, including Congress.  Maybe Barack Obama wasn’t familiar with that, but that was the job he supposedly held before this one - the one where he postured for the Left while his colleagues in both parties worked to fashion a practical system of military tribunals to make sure that we locked up terrorists without damaging national security.

But, hey, actual governing is hard — harder than voting present, and certainly harder than casting politically-expedient votes when you know it won’t affect the outcome.

We’re waiting for our apologies.  We may have to wait for a Friday night/Saturday morning news cycle to get them, but we’re owed a big apology from this President.

Update: Jules Crittenden spits Cheerios all over his laptop screen.

******************************************************************

It's well worth your time to go to the Jules Crittenden link. Lots of great stuff there.

Here's what the inimitable Mark Steyn has to say about this - 

Quote:

Any day now, the new conventional wisdom will emerge: Obama has turned around Bush's failed war on terror because he's had the courage to do the tough things that, while not always attractive, are ruthlessly effective.









Phred


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OfflineCowFarmer
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Thou shalt not doubt [Re: Phred]
    #10274936 - 05/02/09 07:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)




OBAMA is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul:
he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil:
for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of the OBAMA for ever.
:uhoh:
-------------------------------------

Honestly, here is what I think.

Close down gitmo open up shop elsewhere. The only convincing arguments for closing down gitmo that I have heard was world perception. That the world will hate the US more and more if it stays open. Fine. Close it. Open in Egypt.

It's funny that Obama and his pro legal team... is just now realizing "Oh shit, what are we supposed to do now with all these guys?"

It's not like the US doesn't have a hundred other gitmo's or abu ghrad. I guess the tough part is explaining where they all disappeared to. Release them then catch them again right after they step off the truck :wink:

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OfflineScavengerType
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: Phred]
    #10275065 - 05/02/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Nobody here said that the prisoners in gitmo shouldn't get tribunals and should be released outright. In fact It would seem like it would help the process of closing down gitmo would it not?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (05/02/09 08:03 PM)

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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10275626 - 05/02/09 10:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Nobody here said that the prisoners in gitmo shouldn't get tribunals and should be released outright. In fact It would seem like it would help the process of closing down gitmo would it not?




Hell, if they're actually guilty of war crimes (even fighting without uniforms or clear markings), shoot the bastards.

But do it via due process.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Thou shalt not doubt [Re: CowFarmer]
    #10275629 - 05/02/09 10:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CowFarmer said:



OBAMA is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul:
he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil:
for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of the OBAMA for ever.
:uhoh:
-------------------------------------

Honestly, here is what I think.

Close down gitmo open up shop elsewhere. The only convincing arguments for closing down gitmo that I have heard was world perception. That the world will hate the US more and more if it stays open. Fine. Close it. Open in Egypt.

It's funny that Obama and his pro legal team... is just now realizing "Oh shit, what are we supposed to do now with all these guys?"

It's not like the US doesn't have a hundred other gitmo's or abu ghrad. I guess the tough part is explaining where they all disappeared to. Release them then catch them again right after they step off the truck :wink:




I assume there was a point to that post?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: TGRR]
    #10277178 - 05/03/09 08:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And you would be wrong.  We can prosecute pedophile tourists here, now, for what they do there.
Quote:

The United States  has risen to take legislative action against the growing evils of child sex tourism. In 1994, Congress established 18 U.S.C. � 2423(b), which is aimed towards prosecution of child sex tourists. Section 2423(b) criminalizes traveling abroad for the purpose of engaging in illegal sexual activity with a minor. Currently, successful prosecution under � 2423(b) requires the government to prove that an alleged child sex tourist from the United States formed the intent to engage in sexual activity with a child prior to meeting the child and initiating sexual contact. In other words, a defendant is only punishable under � 2423(b) if he has the intent, while traveling, to engage in sexual activity with minors. The federal government has successfully utilized � 2423(b) to target several child sex tourists. Current proposals to eliminate the intent requirement may broaden the government's prosecutorial power by allowing the government to prosecute United States citizens who engage in sexual acts with children while abroad, regardless of when they formed the intent to do so.







That's awesome.  America is now legislating for other nations, and for things that don't even happen in our jurisdiction.

I guess that means American law applies everywhere, right?  Even in Gitmo?

When do we start arresting CIA agents?



Never.  You failed to read the post:

Quote:

requires the government to prove that an alleged child sex tourist from the United States formed the intent to engage in sexual activity with a child prior to meeting the child and initiating sexual contact. In other words, a defendant is only punishable under � 2423(b) if he has the intent, while traveling, to engage in sexual activity with minors.



It requires a conspiracy to commit sexual acts with a minor originating in the US.  The conspiracy originating in the US.  Nice try, though.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Posts: 17,582
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Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10277239 - 05/03/09 08:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, the crime occurs on US soil.


Its interesting to hear people's aversion to those concepts though.



So many people will try to tell you that you can't be convicted for telling folks how to make drugs or other "free speech".  They will argue to the death with you that convicting you for growing drugs by using your speech as the basis is unconstitutional.  Of course the speech wasn't prosecuted, it was just the evidence; same as in this case the child sex wasn't the offense, it was just the evidence.


These same people think it fine to convict people for confessing to a crime in the police station, but somehow believe that if your write a marijuana growing instruction manual you can't be prosecuted on account of the first amendment.  How the first amendment bars one but not the other I couldn't imagine.




Makes no sense.


Just thought it was similar to this situation and the distinction between extra-territorial crimes and extra-territorial evidence.

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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10277345 - 05/03/09 09:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Never.  You failed to read the post:

Quote:

requires the government to prove that an alleged child sex tourist from the United States formed the intent to engage in sexual activity with a child prior to meeting the child and initiating sexual contact. In other words, a defendant is only punishable under � 2423(b) if he has the intent, while traveling, to engage in sexual activity with minors.



It requires a conspiracy to commit sexual acts with a minor originating in the US.  The conspiracy originating in the US.  Nice try, though.




The CIA torture goons didn't get on the plane to Cuba with the intent of just catching a tan.  They went there with the intent to torture.  The conspiracy began in the USA.

So they can be arrested for it.  This is great.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: TGRR]
    #10277793 - 05/03/09 11:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What torture?


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OfflineTGRR
Horrible Bastard


Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 2,084
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10277809 - 05/03/09 11:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What torture?




We can start with the strappado shit, and work our way down to waterboarding.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: TGRR]
    #10278046 - 05/03/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

There was already a trial for your beloved strappado, as you well know.  And waterboarding is not torture, as you well know.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Guantanamo Bay......Should Obama really close it? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10280031 - 05/03/09 07:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

denial is the fist step in the process of grief... over realizing you are a fascist.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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